Sweeney Todd Mafia ~ Town Wins. Ready to be Archived

[DoomYoshi]

I was willing to trust his gambit.

[ShaggyDan]

Just to clarify: I'm not basing my vote just off a supposed 'Gambit', the setup may indeed be as he says, I just personally find it hard to believe that Turpin / Beadle are pro-town when they do a lot to harm the other definite members of town (Joanna and Anthony for starters, possibly Lucy as another, do they have any interaction with Toby?). I'm also basing my vote off his behaviour early. Either way I think we should put guessing the set-up a little bit behind us and do some good old fashioned scum hunting. After we have a few deaths we'll be able to piece together the set-up, but until then I'm going to assume that most characters are evil in some way (except for the obvious good-guys).

[DoomYoshi]

Based on his original flavor speculation post and the hints about who he might be, I am not sure I want saf to claim.

[safariguy5]

Just to clarify: I'm not basing my vote just off a supposed 'Gambit', the setup may indeed be as he says, I just personally find it hard to believe that Turpin / Beadle are pro-town when they do a lot to harm the other definite members of town (Joanna and Anthony for starters, possibly Lucy as another, do they have any interaction with Toby?). I'm also basing my vote off his behaviour early. Either way I think we should put guessing the set-up a little bit behind us and do some good old fashioned scum hunting. After we have a few deaths we'll be able to piece together the set-up, but until then I'm going to assume that most characters are evil in some way (except for the obvious good-guys).

It's not a gambit per se because given my role, I'm sure there's a silent block of players who know basically the same thing I do. Therefore, I'm sure that some of the people on the wagon are probably fellow townies who don't want to expose themselves. With 11 players, I don't think town has a fighting chance against both SKer and mafia sending kills, and while I don't discount the fact of more than 1 anti town faction, I doubt the two factions are able to have a NK each as we would go to LyLo much quicker if there are 2 NKs.

[ShaggyDan]

Unvote

After more thought I'm beginning to believe Saf's claim about Turpin and Beadle being town. The thread title says the demon barber has arisen, which fits in with Todd definitely killing someone each night. If we have Todd killing one person each night it would be rather silly if there was a seperate faction also killing. 2 kills a night would make for a very quick 11 person game. The only other possibility for Beadle/Turpin being anti-town would be if they were a seperate 3rd party (or possibly just Turpin on his own) with a seperate win condition (maybe kill Todd+Lovett, or Todd+Anthony, or something like that). Which I'm willing to admit is improbable.

As much as I know this makes me look wishy-washy for flip-flopping around, maybe we should try and get to a consensus on who the bad guys are before we keep going, no point getting to a claim only to not be sure if we should lynch or not. I would like to hear some other people's thoughts on the matter. As much as I hate guessing at a set-up I guess it's somewhat nesecarry atm. And Saf, I still think you putting Yoshi at L-1 so early was scummy as hell .

Anywho more on my idea of the set-up: There are 9 characters I'm fairly certain will be in here:

Todd, Lovett, Toby, Turpin, Beadle, Anthony, Joanna, Lucy, Pirelli.

The only other character I can think of is Fogg. Can't think of an 11th. Any ideas?

The set-up possibility as I see it:

Todd + Lovett = Mafia
Toby + Anthony + Joanna = Definitely Town (I doubt Anthony + Joanna would be 3rd party, they are probably lovers though)
Turpin + Beadle = Possible 3rd party? Most likely town though (unless Todd + Lovett are town, in which case they're definitely mafia)
Lucy = Most likely town, possibly 3rd party survivor (though with the situation with Yoshi I doubt that)
Fogg = Most likely town jailkeeper
Pirelli = I imagine he wouldn't be alligned with Todd, so I'd say he is town related. Though he's not the nicest character in the movie, maybe a counter towards Todd as a rival barber?

I shy away from the idea of 3 mafia in an 11 person game, so I imagine there's 2 mafia + one or two 3rd party. That's why I shyed away from Toby, Fogg or Pirelli being part of a faction. Any one else have any thoughts?

Edit during post: Your post popped up just then Saf, basically everything above can be summed up as: I agree.

[safariguy5]

Unvote

After more thought I'm beginning to believe Saf's claim about Turpin and Beadle being town. The thread title says the demon barber has arisen, which fits in with Todd definitely killing someone each night. If we have Todd killing one person each night it would be rather silly if there was a seperate faction also killing. 2 kills a night would make for a very quick 11 person game. The only other possibility for Beadle/Turpin being anti-town would be if they were a seperate 3rd party (or possibly just Turpin on his own) with a seperate win condition (maybe kill Todd+Lovett, or Todd+Anthony, or something like that). Which I'm willing to admit is improbable.

As much as I know this makes me look wishy-washy for flip-flopping around, maybe we should try and get to a consensus on who the bad guys are before we keep going, no point getting to a claim only to not be sure if we should lynch or not. I would like to hear some other people's thoughts on the matter. As much as I hate guessing at a set-up I guess it's somewhat nesecarry atm. And Saf, I still think you putting Yoshi at L-1 so early was scummy as hell .

Anywho more on my idea of the set-up: There are 9 characters I'm fairly certain will be in here:

Todd, Lovett, Toby, Turpin, Beadle, Anthony, Joanna, Lucy, Pirelli.

The only other character I can think of is Fogg. Can't think of an 11th. Any ideas?

The set-up possibility as I see it:

Todd + Lovett = Mafia
Toby + Anthony + Joanna = Definitely Town (I doubt Anthony + Joanna would be 3rd party, they are probably lovers though)
Turpin + Beadle = Possible 3rd party? Most likely town though (unless Todd + Lovett are town, in which case they're definitely mafia)
Lucy = Most likely town, possibly 3rd party survivor (though with the situation with Yoshi I doubt that)
Fogg = Most likely town jailkeeper
Pirelli = I imagine he wouldn't be alligned with Todd, so I'd say he is town related. Though he's not the nicest character in the movie, maybe a counter towards Todd as a rival barber?

I shy away from the idea of 3 mafia in an 11 person game, so I imagine there's 2 mafia + one or two 3rd party. That's why I shyed away from Toby, Fogg or Pirelli being part of a faction. Any one else have any thoughts?

Edit during post: Your post popped up just then Saf, basically everything above can be summed up as: I agree.

Yes, I got aggressive on Yoshi because I thought he had slipped up as suggesting that Todd might be town and on Day 1, you have to be vigilant about posts that might be suspicious. Although, if he really is watcher, then he could be useful. I'm pretty sure I'm high on Todd's hit list now as I've basically confessed that I'm a town member and Todd can be sure that he's not accidentally hitting Anthony or Johanna (who I think are third party survivor lovers as they constantly go to Todd for help, but that's another thing), so having Yoshi watch me wouldn't be the worst idea in the world as it at least makes Todd less likely to off me.

What do you say DoomYoshi, watch me to keep the razors from slitting my neck? If on the off chance you were lying about being Lucy, should be apparent in a couple days anyways.

unvote

[DoomYoshi]

Yea I was already inntending to do that when I had unvoted. I don't want a frame up job as much as anyone else does.

[jonty125]

This game will be fairly straightforward with pretty simple roles (there will be a few VTs)

Nobody has considered that someone or some people could be an 'extra' and just be a plain VT

[safariguy5]

This game will be fairly straightforward with pretty simple roles (there will be a few VTs)

Nobody has considered that someone or some people could be an 'extra' and just be a plain VT

Agreed, so the 11th person could be a straight VT. Not a problem. I also tend to think that Johanna and Anthony are straight lovers with no other powers, but that's to be determined.

[Victor Sullivan]

Hm. As far as game set-up is concerned, I'm inclined to believe Sweeney Todd is not, in fact, town. Given DoomYoshi's claim and the role's apparent association with Todd, I wouldn't be surprised if he's mafia, trying to play it off like he's town. I don't think we should readily believe his alignment claim. My vote stays for now.

-Sully

[Mr. Squirrel]

Vote Count

Jonty (1) - edocsil
safariguy (2) - vio, haggis,
doomyoshi (2) - victor, commander9,
saxlad (1) - jonty

6 to lynch
deadline friday

[DoomYoshi]

After a readthrough, saf's logic flaws jumped out at me again. However, I think it was more of an honest slipup than anything.

If you count my vote(which squirell missed, then dooms is at L-1)

He might as well claim, that or someone unvote to avoid accidental hammer

Haggis brought this up before. However rather than realizing an L-1 consisted 4/5 of jokevotes has occured but still asking for a claim is scummy IMO.

Basically I agree with safari here that I don't think todd is town. And lucy does seem way more third party than anything. And a third party watcher can be useful in that you can build cases from the background and bring more evidence forward.

This is cut out of a long post, most of which is flavor spec. That could be a chance to prove that you are being 'active' but not actually providing anything. So far you have provided the most possibilities but as you admitted, you are not familiar with the setting. So I cut your entire post down to the only essential parts of it which are an agreement, clearly stated. I would like to point out that this is probably the easiest case of all to make.,

Another agreement. This one is once again you flavor speculating on a setting you are completely unfamiliar with. That wouldn't be so bad if you actually provide a reason. Why is Lucy more 3rd Party than anything? Since the rest of the players think so? Double Points for Originality.

I am presuming this is an answer to my question of what usefulness would a 3rd-Party Watcher be. You misunderstood my question. If I was third-Party, I would have to be paired with someone as my watching ability only benefits others. If I am mafia, I can help identify town power roles. If I am town, I serve as an extra investigator/protection role (I don't actually protect but see my agreement with safari for what I mean). If I am 3rd Party I can give them information, but just your typical 3rd Party Survivor has no use of the watcher skill. All he needs to do is stay off the radar and try to keep both sides equally weak. In a really contrived way 3rd Party Watcher would make sense. So the question is: Why the hell would any mod, make an unaffiliated 3rd Party Watcher. We know that there is not enough players to support an affiliated 3rd Party. If 3/8 mafia is too much then a 2/2/7 mafia/cult/town is also too much. I guess it is possible that there is a 2/1/8 cult/SK/town but I am going to rule out that possiblity as at this point there has been far too much flavor spec enough.

Not only are you wrong in understanding the question, your answer was incorrect. If I was 3rd Party, why the hell would I help town out with my results? Theoretically, I wouldn't have been found out as a Watcher. Even if I am though, I can just lie about the results every night in any case.

My points against you are thus:
1) Pushing for a roleclaim for almost no reason, when you had a chance to unvote your jokevote
2) Trying to waste time with flavor spec when you know very little about the setting
3) Using the easiest argument mode of all - agreeing
4) Using flawed logic (there is no way for me to be a 3rd Party watcher, so if you think I am 3rd Party then I am lying about my role and you should vote for me)

vote naxus

[jonty125]

Hm. As far as game set-up is concerned, I'm inclined to believe Sweeney Todd is not, in fact, town. Given DoomYoshi's claim and the role's apparent association with Todd, I wouldn't be surprised if he's mafia, trying to play it off like he's town. I don't think we should readily believe his alignment claim. My vote stays for now.

-Sully

I agree with this bit and think he would be mafia (11 to small for a 3rd party I think)

I do believe Yoshi's claim and I am don't have a clue on the film I wouldn't know if Lucy was associated with Todd or anything like that

Well it appears jokevoting is over unvote

[ShaggyDan]

More information on Lucy for those who don't know about the movie: She was the wife of Todd. In the events before the movie Todd had been sent to Australia for 15 years for crimes he didn't commit, sentanced by Turpin who lusted after her. When he returns he is told that Lucy killed herself after Turpin raped her. She didn't actually kill herself but she is a street urchin. She ends up being killed by Todd because he has no idea who she is.

The fact that Todd has no idea who she is proves to me (imo) that Lucy is in no way alligned with Todd. She never helped him kill at all. The flavour fits the role of Watcher. I believe the claim.

Right, now that's settled. With a deadline so close we need action, there's no point pressuring inactives at this stage. I don't have any leads myself (other than my original case on Safari, my read has since changed on him). I'm going to blatantly throw in my vote on the Naxus wagon for the points outlined by Doomyoshi. I would like to make my own case, but with 3 days till deadline we need to be focused if we're going to get any kind of case at all.

Vote Naxus

Also, finally, can someone enlighten me as to what a 3rd party survivor's wincon usually is? Do they win as well as town or mafia as long as they're alive, or do they win and all others lose? I believe this to be the only other role that would fit with Lucy, though honestly Watcher sounds more likely to me.

[ShaggyDan]

Also, it's important to note that Lucy is basically insane in the movie. That may affect some investigations Yoshi, keep that in mind (if you are telling the truth). Even if the role is 3rd party, she was never malicious in the movie so possibly '3rd Party Insane Survivor', though no idea what that would entail, and is unlikely. Again I'm going with ockham's (spelling?) razor and believing Yoshi's claim.

[jonty125]

If you count my vote(which squirell missed, then dooms is at L-1)

He might as well claim, that or someone unvote to avoid accidental hammer

Why didn't you unvote naxus???

vote naxus

[DoomYoshi]

Occam. A survivor needs to be alive at the end, regardless of who wins. An SK actually needs to be alive in the final 3.

[Haggis_McMutton]

damn, I'm starting to get behind on this game.
Sorry guys, I'll catch up to this tomorrow after my exam.

[safariguy5]

Well, I think we do need a lynch and the naxus case, while not the strongest, is probably our best option at this time.

unvote vote naxus

[TheSaxlad]

right now the naxus case is our best option. Seeing as the DoomYoshi case failed. It looks just like a nice deflection from naxus...

unvote vote naxus

[jonty125]

unvote don't want someone to hammer without a claim

[Mr. Squirrel]

Due to the sudden surge in voting, I'll update this.
Vote Count

Jonty (1) - edocsil
safariguy (2) - vio, haggis,
doomyoshi (2) - victor, commander9,
naxus (4) - yoshi, shaggy, safariguy, saxlad

6 to lynch
deadline friday

[edocsil]

Well, I guess it naxus then. I feel that the wagon was joined a little too quickly, especially by those latter on the wagon. That being said, there is an approaching deadline, perhaps the rush was worth it.

[naxus]

I feel that the wagon was joined a little too quickly, especially by those latter on the wagon.

Um agreed and almost completely for the same logic I'm accused of using.

right now the naxus case is our best option. Seeing as the DoomYoshi case failed. It looks just like a nice deflection from naxus...

unvote vote naxus

1. There was no case on Yoshi, It was a 100% joke voted wagon which ended up with him claiming.
2. You agree, add nothing, and vote me to l-1

Well, I think we do need a lynch and the naxus case, while not the strongest, is probably our best option at this time.

unvote vote naxus

1. Agree, add nothing, and vote me
2. I usually expect better reasons from you safari

If you count my vote(which squirell missed, then dooms is at L-1)

He might as well claim, that or someone unvote to avoid accidental hammer

Why didn't you unvote naxus???

vote naxus

1.Once again you just agree but actually add something.
2. I had a different persepective, If I were to unvote then Yoshi claims and the days goes like it did. If someone speed lynched and he came up town then we had our D2 lynch. If he came up scum then we get incredibly lucky. I was waiting to see if a newbie scum would slip up(Sorry for using you as bait yoshi) or if yoshi would claim(which he did). Not the best strategy but I thought it might prove useful.

My points against you are thus:
1) Pushing for a roleclaim for almost no reason, when you had a chance to unvote your jokevote
2) Trying to waste time with flavor spec when you know very little about the setting
3) Using the easiest argument mode of all - agreeing
4) Using flawed logic (there is no way for me to be a 3rd Party watcher, so if you think I am 3rd Party then I am lying about my role and you should vote for me)

vote naxus

1. It was a joke vote wagon that ended up revealing some information. Slighty scummy but no real harm done. Had my reasons
2. Safari threw out some interesting possible set ups and from what I read(Wikipedia) I was voicing my opinion. Not wasting time as It was figuring some basic things out and trying to look further into your own claim(of which I'm still wary)
3.I agreed on flavor spec, which you blatantly said was a waste of time, so safari is just as guilty in that aspect as I am.
4. If you are third party then you are a sacrifice if needed. If your not then I will vote you but onto the cases


Jonty Case

vote edoc for not knowing me

unvote vote Saxlad to celebrate Whac-a-Mod IV.

EBWOP

May not be around for about 48 hours. So I aren't scummaring or anything along them lines.

This game will be fairly straightforward with pretty simple roles (there will be a few VTs)

Nobody has considered that someone or some people could be an 'extra' and just be a plain VT

Hm. As far as game set-up is concerned, I'm inclined to believe Sweeney Todd is not, in fact, town. Given DoomYoshi's claim and the role's apparent association with Todd, I wouldn't be surprised if he's mafia, trying to play it off like he's town. I don't think we should readily believe his alignment claim. My vote stays for now.

-Sully

I agree with this bit and think he would be mafia (11 to small for a 3rd party I think)

I do believe Yoshi's claim and I am don't have a clue on the film I wouldn't know if Lucy was associated with Todd or anything like that

Well it appears jokevoting is over unvote

If you count my vote(which squirell missed, then dooms is at L-1)

He might as well claim, that or someone unvote to avoid accidental hammer

Why didn't you unvote naxus???

vote naxus

Two joke votes, Agrees with victor, and then votes hopping on the wagon. Unvotes me to avoid suspicions.
Has done nothing the whole game and hopes on a deadline rushed wagon with no reason.

Edocs Case

Soooooo tempted to do a a quick D1 hammer just for fun. Likely a bad idea. So with only a week for a day to we force him to claim or not? It is mostly joke votes, but idk, there was some evidence in there.....

Mostly just shenanigans here, but somewhat scummy

Also balance>realism, claim sounds good till proven otherwise. Nice job their boys with the insta bandwagon on a investigative role. At least it isn't the doc.

Comments on the flavor spec and complains about the quick yoshi wagon after he wanted to hammer

Flavor spec sucks when you are out of the loop, but I just can't watch this movie, I've tried and I just can't do it. Could both of them be bad guys at the same time (turpin and todd) with a some sort of WC that the other must die, and a town caught in the middle? It sounds like a novel setup and seems to fit the flavor you guys are talking about.

Telling us his lack of Flavor Spec Yay!!!

Then the comment about the wagon on me. Not so much scummy just lack of participation from someone I expect more of.

Victor Case

Vic joke votes and flavor specs in three posts. Then just dissapeared

Thesaxlad Case

Joke votes and flavor specs then out of the blue

right now the naxus case is our best option. Seeing as the DoomYoshi case failed. It looks just like a nice deflection from naxus...

unvote vote naxus

Votes me. Just a bit scummy.

ShaggyDan Case

Jokevotes, Flavor specs while pursuing both safari and yoshi, then jumps on my ass because of the deadline which is no reason. Vote ShaggyDan

[DoomYoshi]

Jonty just being jonty. Edoc is laying a bit low, could easily be he is not interested in the game or is a doctor than he is scummy. Victor being Victor. TSL being TSL.

So I am a sacrifice if needed. Why not vote me and kill me to ensure getting a 3rd Party? That would also advance it to night. Yet you vote for shaggydan. If you don't believe me, then why don't you vote for me? Also, in case you didn't notice jonty is waiting to drop another vote on you. That means you are effectively L-1. Claim time.