London [All Cities] Riot 2011

[40kguy]

God people start riots for the dumbest reasons

This and not wining the Stanley cup are out rageouse.

If people feel the urge to set buildings on fire blow things up and kill people, please join the army it's actually legal to kill someone if the goverment says it's ok. Give me a break.

[Lootifer]

Excuses! excuses excuses. Cry me a river of excuses. Blow off your steam and cause lots of damage and destroy entire communities because hey, we can justify it! You are just building the hate and violence and crime hotter and hotter with your bullshit.

I will take back the name Barbarians, that was too nice. ANIMALS is more proper.

And greek, it makes sense!

ALWAYS REACT!

NEVER PROACT!

[radiojake]

I have never been to the UK, so obviously this opinion is not based on first hand experience...

However, there must be something seriously messed up for these riots to get so out of hand - People only riot when they are so disenfranchised that they see no other alternative - Sure, you will always find some 'hoodlums' who will use public disorder as an excuse to smash some shit for the sake of looting, but I find it hard to believe that so many people would be rioting unless something has fundamently gone awry in Britain (or London, specifically) -

I would love to hear some first hand experiences from people actually participating in the riots and ask exactly 'why are you rioting?' - Otherwise I am a bit confused to exactly why this is happening -

[Night Strike]

The youth aren't rioting to change the system, but their riots do reveal that they have been completely ignored by the system.

Maybe if they wouldn't have been indoctrinated to believe that the state is supposed to provide everything for them, they wouldn't act of the mentality to go out and do crap like this. Or maybe if modern day youth were actually disciplined when they did wrong instead of everyone saying that they were just expressing themselves and could do whatever they wanted without consequences, they would think that riots like these are wrong.

It's a real shame that individuals and families can't protect themselves and their property with lethal force in Britain. It's a lot easier to protect oneself with a gun than it is a solitary bat.

[radiojake]

The youth aren't rioting to change the system, but their riots do reveal that they have been completely ignored by the system.

Maybe if they wouldn't have been indoctrinated to believe that the state is supposed to provide everything for them, they wouldn't act of the mentality to go out and do crap like this. Or maybe if modern day youth were actually disciplined when they did wrong instead of everyone saying that they were just expressing themselves and could do whatever they wanted without consequences, they would think that riots like these are wrong.

It's a real shame that individuals and families can't protect themselves and their property with lethal force in Britain. It's a lot easier to protect oneself with a gun than it is a solitary bat.

I think history has shown that the economic system of capitalism has on many times failed to adequately supply the needs of large sections of under-advantaged populations, regardless of whether the state has had their hand in the market or if it has been left to 'natural forces' --

Are you McCarthy's love child?

[Lootifer]

Maybe if they wouldn't have been indoctrinated to believe that the state is supposed to provide everything for them, they wouldn't act of the mentality to go out and do crap like this. Or maybe if modern day youth were actually disciplined when they did wrong instead of everyone saying that they were just expressing themselves and could do whatever they wanted without consequences, they would think that riots like these are wrong.

The state give the genuine rioters, genuine angry youth, genuine protesters anything?

Woo woo I get smoke money from the man, I still don't have a job and everyone I talk to treats me like shit. ONWARDS AND UPWARDS I GO!

zzzzz

[radiojake]

I would love to hear some first hand experiences from people actually participating in the riots and ask exactly 'why are you rioting?' - Otherwise I am a bit confused to exactly why this is happening -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iLggKf ... r_embedded

Hmmm - This wasn't exactly the rationale I was hoping to hear -

If anything, this suggests that the education system has failed tremendously - I do not think these girls have one ounce of critical thought in them.

[Baron Von PWN]

I would love to hear some first hand experiences from people actually participating in the riots and ask exactly 'why are you rioting?' - Otherwise I am a bit confused to exactly why this is happening -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iLggKf ... r_embedded

Hmmm - This wasn't exactly the rationale I was hoping to hear -

If anything, this suggests that the education system has failed tremendously - I do not think these girls have one ounce of critical thought in them.

This seems to fit exactly in with the disenfranchisement theme. Sure they're no Trotskys but they clearly feel as though they have gotten a raw deal and do not benefit from the system.

[Pope Joan]

1)I think I've already outlined it's the youth of the inner city, and this is the youth rioting, nearly all the reports agree.

This is what you, liberals would love to assume, don't you?

I have heard a BBC correspondent from the fast track trials yesterday. While this may not be representative, the fact is that among the rioters in London tried first
- the majority were black;
- the majority were in their 20-s;
- the majority had decent employment (among listed occupations were a university student, a soldier, a social worker, an IT consultant);
- half were from London and half came from outside (addresses from Essex and Kent were common).

A common defence was that the person was of a good character and the crime committed was just a moment of madness

[radiojake]

I would love to hear some first hand experiences from people actually participating in the riots and ask exactly 'why are you rioting?' - Otherwise I am a bit confused to exactly why this is happening -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iLggKf ... r_embedded

Hmmm - This wasn't exactly the rationale I was hoping to hear -

If anything, this suggests that the education system has failed tremendously - I do not think these girls have one ounce of critical thought in them.

This seems to fit exactly in with the disenfranchisement theme. Sure they're no Trotskys but they clearly feel as though they have gotten a raw deal and do not benefit from the system.

I guess I was hoping for something slightly more eloquent and articulate -

[Pope Joan]

Is it true that the guy that was shot at the beginnning of this was a known drug dealer, and was in a firefight with the police when he was shot?

My information is that he was a respected elder. This means he was a gangster but unlikely a drug dealer. He had a weapon but there was no firefight. It may be the case that he was shot because he tried to draw his weapon but this is a pure speculation at this point.

[Pope Joan]

My hope for this country is that MET don't stop on the rioters but go over the social networks and get all the organizers done on terrorist offences. Long Live the Queen

[radiojake]

My hope for this country is that MET don't stop on the rioters but go over the social networks and get all the organizers done on terrorist offences. Long Live the Queen

It would be interesting to see how many morons end up writing about their exploits through their social media networks and get caught for it- Not much point in covering your face in the street if you go and brag about it on your facebook.

[Pedronicus]

I would love to hear some first hand experiences from people actually participating in the riots and ask exactly 'why are you rioting?' - Otherwise I am a bit confused to exactly why this is happening -

I'm obviously not rioting, but the one thing I do know is that breaking the law is fun. If you break the law within a group you feel like there's less chance to get caught.
These kids are viewing these riots as fun.

I'm not defending them. I'm just trying to put myself in their position and i can sort of understand how it's mushroomed.

The only way to stop these riots is to kill some of them with plastic bullets so that the parents (more likely parent singular) make sure they stay at home.

[kwanton]

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/op ... 40954.html

The violence on the streets is being dismissed as "pure criminality", as the work of a "violent minority", as "opportunism". This is madly insufficient. It is no way to talk about viral civil unrest. Angry young people with nothing to do and little to lose are turning on their own communities, and they cannot be stopped, and they know it. Tonight, in one of the greatest cities in the world, society is ripping itself apart.

Violence is rarely mindless. The politics of a burning building, a smashed-in shop or a young man shot by police may be obscured even to those who lit the rags or fired the gun, but the politics are there. Unquestionably there is far, far more to these riots than the death of Mark Duggan, whose shooting sparked off the unrest on Saturday when two police cars were set alight after a five-hour vigil at Tottenham police station.

Months of conjecture will follow these riots. Already, the internet is teeming with racist vitriol and wild speculation. The truth is that very few people know why this is happening. They don't know, because they were not watching these communities. Nobody has been watching Tottenham since the television cameras drifted away after the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985.

Most of the people who will be writing, speaking and pontificating about the disorder this weekend have absolutely no idea what it is like to grow up in a community where there are no jobs, no space to live or move, and the police are on the streets stopping-and-searching you as you come home from school. The people who do will be waking up this week in the sure and certain knowledge that after decades of being ignored and marginalised and harassed by the police, after months of not seeing any conceivable hope of a better future confiscated, they are finally on the news.

In one NBC report, a young man in Tottenham was asked if rioting really achieved anything:

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?

Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night, a bit of rioting and looting and look around you.

[kwanton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxG ... r_embedded

[nagerous]

1)I think I've already outlined it's the youth of the inner city, and this is the youth rioting, nearly all the reports agree.

This is what you, liberals would love to assume, don't you?

I have heard a BBC correspondent from the fast track trials yesterday. While this may not be representative, the fact is that among the rioters in London tried first
- the majority were black;
- the majority were in their 20-s;
- the majority had decent employment (among listed occupations were a university student, a soldier, a social worker, an IT consultant);
- half were from London and half came from outside (addresses from Essex and Kent were common).

A common defence was that the person was of a good character and the crime committed was just a moment of madness

Incorrect, the majority of sources agree that the rioters were from poorer areas of the community and were children in young teens to early 20s.

[drake_259]

My brothers Mcdonalds was robbed monday night

[thegreekdog]

1)I think I've already outlined it's the youth of the inner city, and this is the youth rioting, nearly all the reports agree.

Yes, they all agree on that.

2)You've mistaken my point. It is violence, it is theft. Nevertheless this rioting does reveal volumes about their situation. One can go the simplistic way and simply call them barbarians, or one can look at the underlying reasons of why hundreds/thousands (I'm completely guessing here, but from I do know 1,700 was far too few policemen but the 16,000 deployed has seemed to stop disorder in London) of young kids have absolutely no investment in their community, that they would destroy and ravage it, given the opportunity. One does not need to have a thought bubble above his head in order so others understand the motives. The anger at a police brutality has definitely shifted to one of greed and wanton violence and I'm not saying they're protesting for reforms. Their riots however, do reveal their disenfranchisement from their community and society. That is what I mean by disenfranchisement, not that they aren't in a democracy.

I could argue that many youths, if not all, have little to no investment in their community or neighborhood. Here in Philadelphia (US) we have had a number of flash mob type riots and violence over the past two years. Philadelphia has instituted a curfew in response. Is it because the youths have no investment in the community that they do this? Sure, one could argue that high school students or part-time workers or part-time college students have no significant investment in their community (apart from the place they work or live).

In any event, I mistook your initial post for a justifiable reason for the riots (I believe Saxitoxin did as well). For example, if a group rioted in a city or country in which they could not vote, were routinely violated by their government, I would take rioting as a justifiable outlet. If the youths are simply not invested in the community for some nebulous reason that has not yet been articulated (at least to me), and the evidence shows that the youths are more interested in looting and violence than anything else, I would not find the rioting to be a justifiable outlet. Perhaps, instead, the youths should engage in more proactive pursuits. They could spend all that energy in school or building something rather than use the energy to steal things that others have built.

The youth aren't rioting to change the system, but their riots do reveal that they have been completely ignored by the system.

You need to explain this to me. How, specifically, has the system ignored them? On the flip side, what, specifically, has the system done to help them? Do these youths have access to education? Do these youths have access to healthcare? Do these youths have access to food and clothing? What sorts of things don't they have access to that the system could provide them (but that the system does not)?

[Neoteny]

You know, I'm all for youth expression and all that, and quite a bit of criticism of the rioters has come across as race- and class-based whining, which is brain-numbing scapegoating, or worse, but I really have trouble finding rioting and looting to be acceptable modes of expression.

[mandyb]

The youth aren't rioting to change the system, but their riots do reveal that they have been completely ignored by the system.

You need to explain this to me. How, specifically, has the system ignored them? On the flip side, what, specifically, has the system done to help them? Do these youths have access to education? Do these youths have access to healthcare? Do these youths have access to food and clothing? What sorts of things don't they have access to that the system could provide them (but that the system does not)?

A free LED tv.... preferably 40 inch

[nagerous]

They just illustrate a failing in parenting.

[PLAYER57832]

1)I think I've already outlined it's the youth of the inner city, and this is the youth rioting, nearly all the reports agree.

This is what you, liberals would love to assume, don't you?

No, it is what the reports are saying.

I have heard a BBC correspondent from the fast track trials yesterday. While this may not be representative, the fact is that among the rioters in London tried first
- the majority were black;
- the majority were in their 20-s;
- the majority had decent employment (among listed occupations were a university student, a soldier, a social worker, an IT consultant);
- half were from London and half came from outside (addresses from Essex and Kent were common).

Highlight added for emphasis.

See, my primary source of World information IS BBC, "the world", and what they say is that the majority of these are KIDS.. some as young as 10-12, and definitely not all black. In fact, more recent reports say the majority are white (I am guessing this because whites are still the majority population)

A common defence was that the person was of a good character and the crime committed was just a moment of madness

Not what I heard, from the BBC.. the source you quoted above.

Sounds like you might have heard some very initial and very incomplete reports (noted as incomplete, I might add) , and then never bothered to check if that was the truth or not.

[PLAYER57832]

I would love to hear some first hand experiences from people actually participating in the riots and ask exactly 'why are you rioting?' - Otherwise I am a bit confused to exactly why this is happening -

I'm obviously not rioting, but the one thing I do know is that breaking the law is fun. If you break the law within a group you feel like there's less chance to get caught.
These kids are viewing these riots as fun.

I'm not defending them. I'm just trying to put myself in their position and i can sort of understand how it's mushroomed.

The only way to stop these riots is to kill some of them with plastic bullets so that the parents (more likely parent singular) make sure they stay at home.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. And, this is pretty typical of ALL riots.

They all start with some "issue", and certainly anger is needed to fuel the start. However, its as much "kids having fun" aka "mob mentality" that keeps things going and makes them spread. This was true in Watts, in LA, etc. They stop when they hit a group that just doesn't feel a "part" of that other group enough to join in the rioting, plus getting knocked down by police et al. (however, if more people keep joining in, no police action will stop anything).

[comic boy]

Of course there are underlying reasons why these kids are rioting but any disilusionment they feel is frankly often of their own making. Im certainly no neocon , broadly liberal in fact, but the excuses need to stop , the majority of these kids expect everything on a plate and do nothing to help themselves.
Its true that our education system is a mess , it has been systematically dumbed down since the seventies , but almost any pupil putting in a reasonable amount of effort can prosper and university fees are still far lower than the USA for example.
There are plenty of appologists citing socio economic factors and racism to explain underachievment but in truth statistics dont bear this out , many high achievers come from disadvantaged groups such as refugees. As for racism well explain why Asians hugely outperform their black and white classmates.
Discipline and parental ill control play a big part as does sheer idleness , these kids know all the ins and outs of a Blackberry but they would faint if you asked them to spend 5 minutes on brushing up their maths or English grammar.
The web and innovative technology have given todays students a wealth of information at their fingertips but largely they are only interested in social interaction online , certainly thats more fun than homework but dont complain if you end up unemployable.
The truth is that relatively speaking these kids aren't hugely disadvantaged and tons of money has been thrown at the problem with no apparent success, I really dont know what the answer is.
Reactionaries like Night Strike will spew the usual right wing crap but the problem tends to transcend politics. You could pin the education problem on misguided liberalism and social conservatives could certainly point the finger at family values but , and heres the rub , it was Thatchers driven capitalism that broke up many communities and bred the current generation of parents .
My dad summed it up nicely last night , in the eighties he found himself caught up in riots and 25 years on nothing has changed , sad just sad