They're taking your guns! (again)

[Juan_Bottom]

Guns, however, are the easiest and usually most effective way to do this. Fear of death is a powerful motivator.

It works both ways.
Hence the Right to Bear Arms!

[mpjh]

Guns, however, are the easiest and usually most effective way to do this. Fear of death is a powerful motivator.

It works both ways.
Hence the Right to Bear Arms!

Absolutely, the right to engage in organized violence to protect family, life, justice, and liberty is essential to human existence.

[Juan_Bottom]

New rule lifts ban on firearms in national parks
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081206/ap_ ... al_parks_7

But they're giving something back...

WASHINGTON – People will soon be able to carry concealed, loaded guns in most national parks and wildlife refuges.

The Bush administration said Friday it is overturning a 25-year-old federal rule that severely restricts loaded guns in national parks.

Under a rule to take effect in January, visitors will be able to carry a loaded gun into a park or wildlife refuge — but only if the person has a permit for a concealed weapon and if the state where the park or refuge is located also allows concealed firearms.

The new rule goes further than a draft proposal issued last spring and would allow concealed weapons even in parks located in states that explicitly ban the carrying of guns in state parks. Some states allow concealed weapons but also ban guns from parks.

"If you can carry (a gun) on Main Street, you are allowed to carry in a national park," said Chris Paolino. a spokesman for the Interior Department.

[Backglass]

You should have made your position known. For seriously because even I wasn't sure.

All you had to do was ask! Now you know.

His "opinion" is shared by a great many, including the founding fathers.

I am sure it is. A great many also believe there is a magical old man in the sky, but that's another thread.

What the hell did they use to defeat the established government of their day? Marsmallow shooters? Even the Wiskey Rebellion is an example of this.

So by this logic, we should all be able to own tanks and rocket launchers? Should Bill Gates or Warren Buffet be able to build/own/operate a Nuclear Submarine with ballistic missiles?

REASONABLE LIMITS and that's where I fall. .

Were do you stand?

Touche'

Obviously I have touched a fundamental raw nerve and if this is how you rationalize your side of the argument to feel better about your position, vent/dismiss away. I can handle it. Most of the time, so can my opponent. You are not one of these people.

I don't understand you. You were not very clear on your position and then got angry when someone catagore-ized you on their own?

Huh? I am not the slightest bit angry...in fact I find this very enjoyable. Fanatics of all kinds are fun to poke.

[KoolBak]

I enjoy the banter from the sidelines I have managed to clean and polish all my guns watching you arg....uh....discuss

I propose the feds REALLY need to crack down on hammer-wielding crackheads though....this is unacceptable! ANYONE can buy a hammer!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,419543,00.html

On a funny note....there was a meth head that broke into a ladies home here in Oregon recently to rob her....he was waving his little gun around and she fooking killed him with a hammer. LMFAO.....dumbass brough a gun to a hammer fight

[Snorri1234]

It is a truth of this century, as it has been since our own revolution, that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. It is no accident that the government is armed to the teeth.

I whole-heartedly disagree. The power of a government comes from it's ability to lie, and control it's population. Guns are not needed to do this. All you need is to control the mob.

The power of the people may come from guns... I don't think so but maybe....

Guns, however, are the easiest and usually most effective way to do this. Fear of death is a powerful motivator.

It is indeed a powerful motivator. The problem here however, is that making the people fear you is far too hard and dangerous in a democracy. The real way to gain the most power is make the people fear something else and claim that you are the only one able to protect them. The trick is in making people willingly give you that power.

[mpjh]

Sweet thoughts from a European democracy. You forget how very, very violent is the good ole USA. We don't have a democracy here anymore. No habeas corpus. No prohibitions on search and seizure. Arbitrary killing of civilians worldwide. Police forces more powerful that most counties' military. A totally militarized border. Massive layoffs. Sit-ins. No health insurance for most. Get ready for the show, this country is gonna blow.

Of course, the solution is to organize for justice, to build solidarity among working people. Maybe, just maybe Obama can put a tap on that reserve.

[Snorri1234]

Sweet thoughts from a European democracy. You forget how very, very violent is the good ole USA. We don't have a democracy here anymore. No habeas corpus. No prohibitions on search and seizure. Arbitrary killing of civilians worldwide. Police forces more powerful that most counties' military. A totally militarized border. Massive layoffs. Sit-ins. No health insurance for most. Get ready for the show, this country is gonna blow.

Actually, I was talking about your country far more than mine. All that shit you lost like habeas corpus is a direct result of the fear the government instilled in the population. It made people fear terrorists so much that they were willing to suspend a bunch of their rights.

[mpjh]

The populous is not afraid of what the government will do to them, they are soberly, concretely aware of what the government will do if they get out of line: witness Mark Clark and Fred Hampton. You can be unafraid, calmly realistic, and totally aware of the fact that this government will not give power up, it must be taken from it.

The power of the gun is not in the fear it engenders, it is in equalizing everyone for the negotiations for power.

[Juan_Bottom]

I am sure it is. A great many also believe there is a magical old man in the sky, but that's another thread.

No, the foundation of our nation is the right to protect it. They always feared England's return. And a powerful central government.

Juan_Bottom wrote:
What the hell did they use to defeat the established government of their day? Marsmallow shooters? Even the Wiskey Rebellion is an example of this.

So by this logic, we should all be able to own tanks and rocket launchers? Should Bill Gates or Warren Buffet be able to build/own/operate a Nuclear Submarine with ballistic missiles?

I have no idea where you got that. You're now saying that George Washington defeated England by using tanks?

Touche'

No, what are the reasonable limits? Large clips? Small calibre?

It is indeed a powerful motivator. The problem here however, is that making the people fear you is far too hard and dangerous in a democracy. The real way to gain the most power is make the people fear something else and claim that you are the only one able to protect them. The trick is in making people willingly give you that power.

See, someone else gets it. Terrorist don't exist.

Get ready for the show, this country is gonna blow.

Yeah.. I hope it can hold off untill I get a decent GPA...

Of course, the solution is to organize for justice, to build solidarity among working people. Maybe, just maybe Obama can put a tap on that reserve.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst. ^This guy gets it too.

Actually, I was talking about your country far more than mine. All that shit you lost like habeas corpus is a direct result of the fear the government instilled in the population. It made people fear terrorists so much that they were willing to suspend a bunch of their rights.

Not everyone has. They just aren't willing to fight outside of the courts for these things. However, and I'm not kidding, calls for revolution are growing louder. If Obama messes up, he could have a very big problem on his hands.

The power of the gun is not in the fear it engenders, it is in equalizing everyone for the negotiations for power.

Nicely put sir.

[Backglass]

What the hell did they use to defeat the established government of their day? Marsmallow shooters? Even the Wiskey Rebellion is an example of this.

So by this logic, we should all be able to own tanks and rocket launchers? Should Bill Gates or Warren Buffet be able to build/own/operate a Nuclear Submarine with ballistic missiles?

I have no idea where you got that. You're now saying that George Washington defeated England by using tanks?

No they didn't, which is my point! You are saying that the people should be able to match the governments firepower, are you not? So, should those who can afford it be allowed to build nuclear submarines and arm them with ICBM's to keep the government in check? Where do we draw the line?

No, what are the reasonable limits? Large clips? Small calibre?

That is up for debate, but I do not believe that unlimited guns of unlimited firepower are the answer or necessary. We are no longer fighting England. We no longer fear the King. Centuries have passed and we are an independent, stable nation.

If Obama messes up, he could have a very big problem on his hands.

You mean like the huge problem Republican George W. Bush has us in now? Where are the raiders storming the White House? Obama is no George Bush or John McCain. The man has a brain and actually uses it.

What are you guys going to bitch about when everything turns around and prosperity returns?

[mpjh]

What are you guys going to bitch about when everything turns around and prosperity returns?

Not having enough sex or money.

[NightWolf]

Even worse...Anyone seem the Food for Guns program going on? They want us to disarm us so that we cant fight back the NWO.

[Snorri1234]

Touche'

No, what are the reasonable limits? Large clips? Small calibre?

As Backglass said: that's up for debate. However, there is no doubt that there need to be reasonable limits. The problem with this debate is that the pro-gun lobby defends their rights solely on the basis of the constitution. You can't defend a law by saying "it's the law", you have to give a good argument for why it should be law.

I'd say that assault rifles shouldn't be held by the general populace.

It is indeed a powerful motivator. The problem here however, is that making the people fear you is far too hard and dangerous in a democracy. The real way to gain the most power is make the people fear something else and claim that you are the only one able to protect them. The trick is in making people willingly give you that power.

See, someone else gets it. Terrorist don't exist.

Oh terrorists exist, they are just far less of a threat than people think. People are manipulated through tv and the government to be far more scared of things than they should be. And this is not only for terrorism the case. Even though crime-rates have gotten lower in recent years, people have become more afraid of it and think it's worse. All because the media have covered more crimes in the news and so. People are afraid of thousands of things due to the fear-mongering by the media and government and also due to their own stupidity. There are people who won't let their kids be vaccinated because they think it is dangerous! I mean, holy shit how stupid can you be?

Actually, I was talking about your country far more than mine. All that shit you lost like habeas corpus is a direct result of the fear the government instilled in the population. It made people fear terrorists so much that they were willing to suspend a bunch of their rights.

Not everyone has. They just aren't willing to fight outside of the courts for these things. However, and I'm not kidding, calls for revolution are growing louder. If Obama messes up, he could have a very big problem on his hands.

The way your country works means it cannot really have a revolution. There are too many people in general, too many powerful people who don't want anything to change and too many people who have too much too lose. Shit really needs to get far more fucked up for people to really cause a revolution, and then it is still unlikely that much will change.

[Juan_Bottom]

Even worse...Anyone seem the Food for Guns program going on? They want us to disarm us so that we cant fight back the NWO.

I don't know you, but I'd like you to stick around for me sir.
And yeah, I've seen them. Cali has something going on right now, aye?

No they didn't, which is my point! You are saying that the people should be able to match the governments firepower, are you not?

Oh no sir. I agree with drawing a reasonable line and all of this, but I am unsure myself as to what is reasonable. This ban has been lifted for a while already. I don't understand why they are only re-instating it now? Honestly I wonder if it's just coincidental timing or if it does have something to do with Obama or the economy. Plus, as a person living in a gun-loving community, I don't see the same lines drawn for everyone as being fair. In Iowa I can own whatever gun I like. It's just an extra 7 days to own a Vietnam-era machine gun, you know?
All I'm saying is that the "Right to bear Arms" is just that. And it should be the people, not the government defining "arms."

Centuries have passed and we are an independent, stable nation.

I will kindly disagree with this.

We no longer fear the King.

And this.

You mean like the huge problem Republican George W. Bush has us in now? Where are the raiders storming the White House?

I'm not joking, honest. Listen to free radio once in a while and you'll hear that Vets and everyday people are not only stockpiling, but preparing for revolution. Seriously. Now none of them are making any moves or anything, but they are getting ready. Sales of Ammuniton and guns have gone up around 50% nationwide, storable food is selling at peak price, and the price of gold has never been higher.

The man has a brain and actually uses it.

We'll see when we see. i don't want to go aving any banners just yet. I'm really unsure about this guy. He's not doing a bad job so far, but who knows what he'll (thinks he) be forced to do when the bottom drops out?

What are you guys going to bitch about when everything turns around and prosperity returns?

And what if it doesn't? I'm getting myself prepared as best I can. Which isn't much honest.

I'd say that assault rifles shouldn't be held by the general populace.

I completeely disagree. But Assualt Rifles are pretty much where I draw the line.

Oh terrorists exist, they are just far less of a threat than people think.

Depending on where you live of course. Here in America I have a better chance spontaniously combusting.

There are people who won't let their kids be vaccinated because they think it is dangerous! I mean, holy shit how stupid can you be?

Mainstream is trying to get people vaccinated. It's free radio that is encouraging people to REASEARCH. ThePowerHour covers a lot of stories about hidden dangers of Vaccinations... people just go wild and run with it.

The way your country works means it cannot really have a revolution. There are too many people in general, too many powerful people who don't want anything to change and too many people who have too much too lose.

We have special regions though... Rebellions would start out localized... like the Civil War.
At any rate, the first thing you'll see is a tax rebellion. IMO.

[mpjh]

I'm not joking, honest. Listen to free radio once in a while and you'll hear that Vets and everyday people are not only stockpiling, but preparing for revolution. Seriously. Now none of them are making any moves or anything, but they are getting ready. Sales of Ammuniton and guns have gone up around 50% nationwide, storable food is selling at peak price, and the price of gold has never been higher.

I hate to tell you Juan, but the guns are the easy part of revolution. Organizing for change and having the ability to replace the power structure with an alternative requires a lot more than lead ammunition. It takes smarts, courage, and an organized community.

[Juan_Bottom]

Oh absolutly,
But people are organizing their families first.
This is the first I've ever seen the country like this, because I'm young and this is F-ed up, but I see the preperations being made by citizens. Not on any large scale though, no.

[Snorri1234]

Oh no sir. I agree with drawing a reasonable line and all of this, but I am unsure myself as to what is reasonable. This ban has been lifted for a while already. I don't understand why they are only re-instating it now?

I don't think anyone here thinks this particular ban makes much sense.

Centuries have passed and we are an independent, stable nation.

I will kindly disagree with this.

We no longer fear the King.

And this.

Disagreeing is allowed, but please explain why you disagree. I mean, people don't actually fear the King anymore. They fear all kinds of things but the King (i.e. gov) is one of those things that people don't fear that much, even though it is not unreasonable to fear Him.

I'm not joking, honest. Listen to free radio once in a while and you'll hear that Vets and everyday people are not only stockpiling, but preparing for revolution. Seriously. Now none of them are making any moves or anything, but they are getting ready. Sales of Ammuniton and guns have gone up around 50% nationwide, storable food is selling at peak price, and the price of gold has never been higher.

Yeah yeah, but you're forgetting that that is a very, very small part of the population. The places where the revolution would make the biggest impact are the places where it is unlikely to happen. The big cities.

And the price of gold is only high because people don't trust banks anymore. My uncle made quite a bit of money by buying gold-stocks and selling it a few months ago, but he isn't preparing for revolution.

I'd say that assault rifles shouldn't be held by the general populace.

I completeely disagree. But Assualt Rifles are pretty much where I draw the line.

Well assault rifles just strike me as dangerous and not of much use except for when you want to kill a lot of people.

Oh terrorists exist, they are just far less of a threat than people think.

Depending on where you live of course. Here in America I have a better chance spontaniously combusting.

Indeed. There are a bunch of small groups all over the place, but they really aren't much of a threat.

There are people who won't let their kids be vaccinated because they think it is dangerous! I mean, holy shit how stupid can you be?

Mainstream is trying to get people vaccinated. It's free radio that is encouraging people to REASEARCH. ThePowerHour covers a lot of stories about hidden dangers of Vaccinations... people just go wild and run with it.

What is stupid about it is that those people seem to have no idea about the non-hidden dangers of not getting vaccinated. for some reason it's never the old people who lost quite a few childhood friends to polio or other diseases.

[Juan_Bottom]

Sorry, I thought that knowing me you'd all kinda understand.
I disagree that we are independant or stable. I'm just not sure that within the next 10 years we will be an independant people. Our nation is endebted to quite a few others, China namely. And even if they don't call for their money back all at once, our citizens are endebted to their own government thanks to the bailout and wars, among many other things. Plus who knows where we'll be in 500 years?

We are not stable either. Just take a look at the stock market. Does anyone think that a Depression is just not possible? Or that war with Russia and China is out of the relm of possablity? Do you trust your bank?
And even if we were stable, we still need to think of our children in more ways than one. We can't stay the world power for forever. Look at Spain, Rome, or Germany.

And yes, many Americans do fear/respect the government. Look what they've done with the banks. And our veterans. This government does not work for us. King George may be gone, but in a Democracy, there will always be the threat of a tyranny.
If you don't have a that kind of respect for our governement, it is because you have placed yourself out of the loop.

And the price of gold is only high because people don't trust banks anymore. My uncle made quite a bit of money by buying gold-stocks and selling it a few months ago, but he isn't preparing for revolution.

People don't trust the banks... but the government is the one funding them... it's hand-in-hand. At least, I think so.

[Snorri1234]

Sorry, I thought that knowing me you'd all kinda understand.
I disagree that we are independant or stable. I'm just not sure that within the next 10 years we will be an independant people. Our nation is endebted to quite a few others, China namely. And even if they don't call for their money back all at once, our citizens are endebted to their own government thanks to the bailout and wars, among many other things. Plus who knows where we'll be in 500 years?

We are not stable either. Just take a look at the stock market. Does anyone think that a Depression is just not possible? Or that war with Russia and China is out of the relm of possablity? Do you trust your bank?
And even if we were stable, we still need to think of our children in more ways than one. We can't stay the world power for forever. Look at Spain, Rome, or Germany.

The government is stable. The economy is fucked up but that doesn't mean you can't pull through.

And yes, many Americans do fear/respect the government. Look what they've done with the banks. And our veterans. This government does not work for us. King George may be gone, but in a Democracy, there will always be the threat of a tyranny.
If you don't have a that kind of respect for our governement, it is because you have placed yourself out of the loop.

I don't know what you mean by "fear" then.

And the price of gold is only high because people don't trust banks anymore. My uncle made quite a bit of money by buying gold-stocks and selling it a few months ago, but he isn't preparing for revolution.

People don't trust the banks... but the government is the one funding them... it's hand-in-hand. At least, I think so.

The distrust of the banks has nothing to do with the government, in fact the government doing something about it has at least restored a little trust.

[jonesthecurl]

OK, Juan - I'll just weigh in with one question.
If you fear and distrust the government and believe that it might possibly be reasonable to stockpile arms in case aone wnats to join a revolution against the evil government, then why are you condidering enlisting?

[Juan_Bottom]

The government is stable. The economy is fucked up but that doesn't mean you can't pull through.

By stable, you mean no one wants to overthrow it right?

I don't know what you mean by "fear" then.

Insomnia makes it hard to communicate I tell you.
You don't have to fear something to be ready for it. I'm not afraid of bears but I'd carry bear spray if I were in bear country. It's a respect thing. Hard to explain though...

The distrust of the banks has nothing to do with the government, in fact the government doing something about it has at least restored a little trust.

Sure it does. The governments lack of oversight is what lead to this. Then the people said "NO" to the bailout, but the government put it through anyway. Now the exact same thing is happening with the Auto bailout. Obama's name is what is restoring the trust more than anything.
Besides, the government is the banks.

If you fear and distrust the government and believe that it might possibly be reasonable to stockpile arms in case aone wnats to join a revolution against the evil government,

Against AN evil governemnt. Not neccissaraly the current one. In fact, I'm just talking about protecting/defending against anyone one who infringes on our rights. I'm one of those people who believes that if I want to live one way, then it's my job to protect that way of life.

then why are you condidering enlisting?

For the above reason. If I want to go to school, and start my life, then it's my job to make that happen. The military will use me and I will use them back.

[Backglass]

because I'm young and this is F-ed up, but I see the preperations being made by citizens. Not on any large scale though, no.

Yes, you are. Don't take that the wrong way, but you are getting in a panic over paranoid loonies that have been "preparing" for the last 25+ years. I heard the exact same crap when Clinton was elected. The end was near! Civil war is right around the corner! Prepare for Government crackdowns! ARM YOURSELF!!!!

In my opinion, the first thing you should do is stop listening to conspiracy theory crackpots on "free radio".

[mpjh]

Juan, get some sleep, get a new girlfriend, and eat more vegetables and fruit. Stop smoking your lunch.

[Juan_Bottom]

Yes, you are. Don't take that the wrong way, but you are getting in a panic over paranoid loonies that have been "preparing" for the last 25+ years. I heard the exact same crap when Clinton was elected. The end was near! Civil war is right around the corner! Prepare for Government crackdowns! ARM YOURSELF!!!!

I can actually see stuff happening right now though. So It's differen't isn't it? Our government is actually in trouble.
And I like free radio, it always makes me smile.
Did I tell you about how the creator of HALO said that when he had top secret "flying disc" clearance that he learned aliens are angels from another dimension? Where else would I learn such an irrevokable fact as that?

get a new girlfriend,

No!

and eat more vegetables and fruit.

I hate fruit.