Conquer Club

God is an illusion.

Neoteny wrote:God is an illusion.

See, and here's the thing... I'm pretty sure this is the future we look forward to... a general condemnation and ridicule of religion. The kid posts something that is neither prostelyzation (I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong) or ridiculing of atheists and you post this. This is the kind of anti-religious type stuff that I, personally, get on a regular basis. And this is why I don't talk about religion usually.

jdw35 wrote:SUPERMAN is everywhere, you can see him in all things created. He is in the amazing features of this Earth, he is in all people. SUPERMAN is almighty, he is just. SUPERMAN has a reason for everything, it is up to you to follow him though, he has given us the power to make our own decisions, we just need to honor him in all that we say and do.

Fixed it for you.

Hope you agree............

global warming...

I might not have used the correct terms MDF so sorry for that. Although its status as a "natural law" is disputed, I do think it's a process that arises ANYWHERE there is competition of any kind, even among religions. So I consider it basically a fact of the universe. The religion that wins is not necessarily the correct one, but more often is the one that allows the greatest advancement of a given society. That's why I take issue with people who insist that religion is this huge negative force on society that so many say it is. I'm convinced that if it was, a nonreligious culture would have thrived and we would be rid of religion altogether by now. But there is religion almost everywhere, even among distinct cultures that completely lacked contact, so not only do I see it as good, I see it as a natural way of seeking answers, much like science. To be perfectly honest I would still support religion even if I knew that God didn't exist, because it provides a tremendous amount of support and stability for people (aside from the occasional whackjobs like Sultan posted in that other thread, but that is largely a political issue). I maintain that militant atheism is unwarranted because the basis behind it (that religion is inherently bad) is flawed. That being said, I do have tolerance for the non-proselytizing atheists (in fact one of my cooler cousins is an atheist, and has never mentioned it, I only know because my aunt told me). They are not much different to me than an upstanding humble Catholic.

thegreekdog wrote:

Neoteny wrote:God is an illusion.

See, and here's the thing... I'm pretty sure this is the future we look forward to... a general condemnation and ridicule of religion. The kid posts something that is neither prostelyzation (I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong) or ridiculing of atheists and you post this. This is the kind of anti-religious type stuff that I, personally, get on a regular basis. And this is why I don't talk about religion usually.

My wife believes in God while I don't. It's sort of a touchy subject around the house. We've decided that if our little girl has questions about it that we'll both be there together at the same time when discussing it. I don't think people who believe in God are stupid or tragically devoted to illusions. I just can't see any evidence that would convince me to change. It's true that there are people on our side who are unnecessarily being dipshits over this by baiting believers into arguments so they can just call names. On the other hand, there are zealots like the ones I work with who want to have a theological discussion every lunch break. I'm there to work, not have a Bible study.

bradleybadly wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Neoteny wrote:God is an illusion.

See, and here's the thing... I'm pretty sure this is the future we look forward to... a general condemnation and ridicule of religion. The kid posts something that is neither prostelyzation (I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong) or ridiculing of atheists and you post this. This is the kind of anti-religious type stuff that I, personally, get on a regular basis. And this is why I don't talk about religion usually.

My wife believes in God while I don't. It's sort of a touchy subject around the house. We've decided that if our little girl has questions about it that we'll both be there together at the same time when discussing it. I don't think people who believe in God are stupid or tragically devoted to illusions. I just can't see any evidence that would convince me to change. It's true that there are people on our side who are unnecessarily being dipshits over this by baiting believers into arguments so they can just call names. On the other hand, there are zealots like the ones I work with who want to have a theological discussion every lunch break. I'm there to work, not have a Bible study.

I agree. There are zealots and there are dangerous zealots. That being said, the trend is moving away from religion and zealotry and more toward atheism and zealotry. Thus, my concern.

thegreekdog wrote:

Neoteny wrote:God is an illusion.

See, and here's the thing... I'm pretty sure this is the future we look forward to... a general condemnation and ridicule of religion. The kid posts something that is neither prostelyzation (I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong) or ridiculing of atheists and you post this. This is the kind of anti-religious type stuff that I, personally, get on a regular basis. And this is why I don't talk about religion usually.

Why are you reading more into Neo's post than he said? He simply stated that he believes god is an illusion and you state that he is condemning and ridiculing the previous poster. I'm sorry Greek, but it appears to me that it's you that is condemning and ridiculing in this case.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

AAFitz wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:The problem with saying its beneficial is that the converse is not true. In truth ALL societies, failures and successes, have religious beliefs.

In truth, it is likely there is something fundamental to humanity that need religion, just as we seem to need government.

Within religions, what you say is somewhat true.

To say we need religion, simply because we have religion, is like saying Russia needed communism, or Germany needed Hitler simply because they had them. Need often has little to do with what one has, it is far more often determined by what they can get, which is almost always determined, by some sort of power.

No, you are being far, far too narrow.

I am saying that every culture, every nation on Earth has some form of governance... also some form of religious belief. If you expand that to atheism, in essence a kind of "non belief" in this context, it is axiomatic that people have religion, because any strong belief is really religion.

However, even if you narrow that to a belief in a diety or "system of being" (Scientiology, for example, Buddhism perhaps), it covers all.

Perhaps religion is something people will "outgrow" as some modern individuals insist. However, I suspect that while some people will take that direction, many others will not. At any rate, that is simply a matter of opinion. The fact is that religion has been a factor in every human society in existance and continues to be a major force.

There is honestly nothing I disagree with here, perse...its all a generally reasonable point of view. Except that I contend, most religions are in existence because of wielded power to some degree.

However, while many societies and cultures do have religions, it does not necessarily mean that those people in them, actually are believers. And by believers, I mean real believers, not just followers of the pack...of which, there is no doubt many.

It is true that every group does have governance, and its no doubt tied to our instinct of hierarchy, which is evident in every single group of social animals on the planet....well... except maybe some fish and some smaller animals ( I cant picture the sardines having an alpha sardine, but I suppose its possible.

And as far as religions go, as I said, it does make things easier. It answers a lot of questions so your brain can focus on what it wants to do, which is generally keep itself alive, and have some fun doing it.

As far as religion fading out over time, that will be a possibility, but that possibility, most likely depends upon whether there Truly is a God or not. I doubt highly that any God that gave us religion in the first place, would let it go away completely...though it is very possible, that that could indeed be the very goal of any true God... to let his creation run with the ball, so He can move onto the next project.

However, if there is no God, it is very possible that eventually religion will die out, but I suspect not completely for everyone. There is no doubt there will always be a place for it, for some people, perhaps even a great majority. One possible change to that, would be the discovery of other life forms, who simply have not heard of this God, or...who decide they are God, play God, and take us over. I suspect that if 50 ships came and took us over from another planet, and our God was nowhere to be found....this might jump the boundaries of the bible, and most peoples faith, and prove, perhaps as much as possible to most that there is no actual God to watch out for our souls.

I also have no doubt, it would simultaneously just spark more, and different religions.

I suspect if there is no God, and an alien force jumps from planet to planet, wiping out civilizations that believe in God...they probably dont believe in him too much. Though, they may just decide their God is the real one, and we deserve to be punnished for worshiping Jesus and not eouilmer weojuv9982q9 lkjwero, instead.

Its happened before.

pmchugh wrote:ur maw

I'm going to just switch to the origional thread concept.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-mngn5ttY4

notyou2 wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Neoteny wrote:God is an illusion.

See, and here's the thing... I'm pretty sure this is the future we look forward to... a general condemnation and ridicule of religion. The kid posts something that is neither prostelyzation (I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong) or ridiculing of atheists and you post this. This is the kind of anti-religious type stuff that I, personally, get on a regular basis. And this is why I don't talk about religion usually.

Why are you reading more into Neo's post than he said? He simply stated that he believes god is an illusion and you state that he is condemning and ridiculing the previous poster. I'm sorry Greek, but it appears to me that it's you that is condemning and ridiculing in this case.

Indeed. My post was an attempt to show how silly it is to just assert such things. The general style of the previous poster was "God is" without anything really to back it up. My post was therefore just as legitimate (which actually means it was not legitimate at all.

Do you consider me to be an atheist zealot, Greek?

Neoteny wrote:

notyou2 wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Neoteny wrote:God is an illusion.

See, and here's the thing... I'm pretty sure this is the future we look forward to... a general condemnation and ridicule of religion. The kid posts something that is neither prostelyzation (I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong) or ridiculing of atheists and you post this. This is the kind of anti-religious type stuff that I, personally, get on a regular basis. And this is why I don't talk about religion usually.

Why are you reading more into Neo's post than he said? He simply stated that he believes god is an illusion and you state that he is condemning and ridiculing the previous poster. I'm sorry Greek, but it appears to me that it's you that is condemning and ridiculing in this case.

Indeed. My post was an attempt to show how silly it is to just assert such things. The general style of the previous poster was "God is" without anything really to back it up. My post was therefore just as legitimate (which actually means it was not legitimate at all.

Do you consider me to be an atheist zealot, Greek?

No. I just question whether you have any respect for people who are religious. Based on your posts, it appears that you do not. That is what bothers me. You seem like a reasonable fellow, so I'm not sure why it was necessary to post something like that. It would be different if the kid came in and typed, "you are all going to burn in the fires of Hell." If he had typed that, I'd have no problem with what you typed. However, he just indicated what he thought, he did not attack anyone, he did not ridicule anyone. It's like if you were standing on a street corner and asked a group of people if they believed in God and one of them said, "yeah, he's all around us, etc." and then you said, "You're an idiot."

Anyway, I'll stop. I have to do better not to get involved in these types of things. A sore spot for me and I overreact.

I don't think that's quite accurate. It's more like the guy overheard us talking about god and came up to us saying what he said. I didn't intend my post to be aggressive or derogatory in manner at all. I was just following suit in a similar vein as she.

To respond to your initial statements: I don't have any respect for most people who are religious as far as the justifications for their religiosity.I find it severely lacking intellectually. This doesn't usually carry over to other areas except in cases where religion pervades every aspect of life (I've got a few facebook friends whose goal, it seems to me, is to use the website to show how godly they are. Irritates the piss out of me). I can honestly say that I respect Francis Collins as a scientist, but find his religious convictions to be completely silly. I see the existence of religion in such cases as the willful application of blinders in the place of a typically reasonable attitude. This of course stems from two main facts. 1) I'm an atheist. 2) I'm of the opinion that all opinions are not created equal. Some that are obviously wrong do not deserve to be taken seriously (holocaust denial, germ theory denial, the current anti-vaxxers, anti evolutionists, and anti-GW people are the ones I'm most familiar with. I also throw god in there too). I do try to avoid sweeping judgments of intelligence based on religion, but I might not always succeed.

Why might this a bad thing?

I think it's a bad thing for people to ridicule others based on what they believe without first being provoked. It appeared to me that you ridiculed this poster based on what they believed without being provoked. Perhaps any discussion of belief in God is justification for you to ridicule. I think there's something inherently wrong with that.

As a related example, there were two girls I went to high school with. One was Jewish and the other was some version of conservative Protestant. They were friends. However, when the subject of religion came up the Protestant would not hesitate to criticize and ridicule the Jew. Her "provocation" was that she was Jewish. Similarly, your provocation is that the poster (or other person) is religious. On the other hand, if the Jew who was being criticized and ridiculed had responded in kind, I would have no problem with that.

Similarly, if you were ridiculed and harrassed; if there were some poster that yelled at you for being an atheist, I could see ridicule and scorn and I would join in (as I've said before). I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction of ridicule to a post like that from you. And maybe I overreacted.

I'm not a religious person; don't go to church, hate organized religion, mock those that take the bible literally, and especially hate catholic dogma for the damage done, and what it continues to do.

But I have to say, I respect and try to follow the teachings and message of Christ.
I don't judge or ridicule or comment on others not doing so or anything they do really, unless they hurt another or worse an innocent. Or f*ck with me, then I get evil.

I'm a true skeptic, and it goes against my character and logical intelligence to believe, but I have had just too many acts of divine intervention to not; and I find that when I settle, and listen, and spiritually "reach out", I can feel a divine presence. Call it God, Buddha, Allah, Jesus, Jehovah, whichever label you can relate to.

Now you can break this down point by point and deliver a reasonable and practical explanation for everything I've seen, been though and feel. But inside, I know....like in the core of my persona KNOW....that this is true.

Is this faith? I don’t know.
It just is.

Rockets

I think the faith is just accepting that you know it's real instead of challenging it. I don't think it's normal to just have faith all the time. It might be a great way to live but I know I can never do it.

Back on track.

thegreekdog wrote:I think it's a bad thing for people to ridicule others based on what they believe without first being provoked

If someone states he believes in the Austrian school of economics I have absolutely no problem with ridiculing them without provocation.

Snorri1234 wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:I think it's a bad thing for people to ridicule others based on what they believe without first being provoked

If someone states he believes in the Austrian school of economics I have absolutely no problem with ridiculing them without provocation.

Economic theory is a little different than religion (although, with some people not so much).

notyou2 wrote:

jdw35 wrote:SUPERMAN is everywhere, you can see him in all things created. He is in the amazing features of this Earth, he is in all people. SUPERMAN is almighty, he is just. SUPERMAN has a reason for everything, it is up to you to follow him though, he has given us the power to make our own decisions, we just need to honor him in all that we say and do.

Fixed it for you.

Hope you agree............

that was very immature, i am a 16 year old preachers son tryin to be real with you guys and then you come in and pull a smart ass move like that. If you dont truely have a comment to say on this topic, then get out, we dont appreciate you being childish

2dimes wrote:

so yeah I'm convinced.

jdw35 wrote:

notyou2 wrote:

jdw35 wrote:SUPERMAN is everywhere, you can see him in all things created. He is in the amazing features of this Earth, he is in all people. SUPERMAN is almighty, he is just. SUPERMAN has a reason for everything, it is up to you to follow him though, he has given us the power to make our own decisions, we just need to honor him in all that we say and do.

Fixed it for you.

Hope you agree............

that was very immature, i am a 16 year old preachers son tryin to be real with you guys and then you come in and pull a smart ass move like that. If you dont truely have a comment to say on this topic, then get out, we dont appreciate you being childish

It's a joke, I'm sorry you don't have a sense of humour

thegreekdog wrote:I think it's a bad thing for people to ridicule others based on what they believe without first being provoked. It appeared to me that you ridiculed this poster based on what they believed without being provoked. Perhaps any discussion of belief in God is justification for you to ridicule. I think there's something inherently wrong with that.

As a related example, there were two girls I went to high school with. One was Jewish and the other was some version of conservative Protestant. They were friends. However, when the subject of religion came up the Protestant would not hesitate to criticize and ridicule the Jew. Her "provocation" was that she was Jewish. Similarly, your provocation is that the poster (or other person) is religious. On the other hand, if the Jew who was being criticized and ridiculed had responded in kind, I would have no problem with that.

Similarly, if you were ridiculed and harrassed; if there were some poster that yelled at you for being an atheist, I could see ridicule and scorn and I would join in (as I've said before). I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction of ridicule to a post like that from you. And maybe I overreacted.

I suppose the difference is what we are provoked by. You are quick to judge based on what you consider "unprovoked," but maybe I'm just more easily provoked than you. For example, I am provoked by the overuse of cliches. The gentleman's post in question had plenty of those.

That is not to say that all provocations are valid. Obviously, your high school girls are an example of that. And stop worrying about overreacting. I'm certain we've both done much worse.

thegreekdog wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:I think it's a bad thing for people to ridicule others based on what they believe without first being provoked

If someone states he believes in the Austrian school of economics I have absolutely no problem with ridiculing them without provocation.

Economic theory is a little different than religion (although, with some people not so much).

Here's another opinion we differ on. One's religious and economic views are (ideally) a culmination of rational thought on two different subjects. You obviously consider the subject matter of one to be on a higher plane than the other for some reason. I guess it's because people actually define themselves by their religion in some cases? I don't know. But I don't see a valid difference. If you have silly economic views (which I usually abstain from due to lack of experience), or if you have silly scientific views, or if you have silly religious views (especially if they're written in cliche form) I'm going to make fun of you. I consider that a valid provocation. It's not like I insult someone for being Jewish. I don't usually insult people for believing in god. I do insult people if you say silly things that seem to not have much thought behind them.

Neo, I agree with most of your last post. But I'll take a couple of things:

Neoteny wrote:I do insult people if you say silly things that seem to not have much thought behind them.

I think your definition of what fits into this statement includes religion generally. In other words, I think you think people who are religious don't put much thought behind their beliefs because if they did put any thought behind their beliefs, they would not be religious.

Neoteny wrote:It's not like I insult someone for being Jewish. I don't usually insult people for believing in god.

I won't leave this just to you because there other people that are "guilty" of insulting people because of religion. So, for what it's worth, don't take the following comments personally because they are not directed at you personally. And it goes both ways; there are religious people who insult others because of their lack of religion.

So, a religious person posts in a thread about religion that he/she believes in God. That person is ridiculed for the statement (because it's a ridiculous statement maybe, or just because). I find this no different than if a person posts in a thread about homosexuality that he/she is homosexual and then b.k. barunt or Phatscotty or Thorny come in and ridicule that person for the statement (because it's a ridiculous statement maybe, or just because). The only difference, and I'll be the first to point this out, is that religious people have not historically been ridiculed or attacked or killed or whatever (although it has happened). There are not people going to Uganda and telling them to kill the religious (although it has happened). However, that being said, the trend that I see is that people, especially in the United States, who are not religious are beginning to find it socially and culturally acceptable to ridicule those that are religious in the same vein as people who find it socially and culturally acceptable to ridicule homosexuals because of their sexual preference.

The poster said stuff about God as a pure statement, not "I believe this". Their comments totally ignored all the previous discussion as if it was not worthy of attention.
To reply with "God is an illusion" is a response in kind, sort of "No,u!"

Both posts are irrelevant to the rest of the discussion, and both ignore the question of "evidence".