Mexican Violence/Liberal Silence

[BigBallinStalin]

This is simply not born up by the evidence.

yes it is. Illegal immigrants by their very definition are illegals. They are breaking the law. Therefore, it's a 100% crime rate.

And what problem does that particular crime cause? Truly, what problem?

How about the BILLIONS of dollars remitted to their home countries by illegals every year? That is lost revenue to local businesses. How about the MILLIONS of dollars spent to educate the children of illegals? That is money taken from OUR pockets, money that should be spent on OUR children. How about the MILLIONS of dollars lost to hospitals because illegals clog the emergency rooms for minor bullshit? It's theft, any way you look at it.

Why not give those illegal immigrants legal status and make bank from the revenue collected after taxing them?

Also that would encourage them to stay and to move their family in. That means more people to tax, and more people contributing to the system, so all those problems you just stated would be vastly minimized.

Undergoing a time-intensive and expensive state-wide operation of trying to hunt down, process, hold in private prisons, and then kick out perhaps millions of illegal immigrants is also very expensive. That, and it doesn't even solve the problem, because the incentive is still there for more immigrants to come. In addition to that, there's also other states for them to move to.

How does "kickin' dem Mexicans out" solve anything?

[BigBallinStalin]

If Mexican illegals crossing our border isn't harming anyone, then by what right does Mexico have to detain, arrest, and deport Central Americans who enter their southern border illegally?

Personally I don't care what the Mexican government's stance is; I'm an American. And I hold firmly to very ideal that was put into words and placed at the foot of the Statue of Liberty:
\
I am aware that the statue points towards Europe only but it was a gift from France....

Furthermore: As an American, I hold myself to a high moral code. I don't believe for one second that having illegal immigrants here is good for our $$$. But even if we deport everyone, will that solve the problems? Wont they just cross over again and get hired somewhere? I don't see why we can't see another option presented (that's directed at the Conservatives that shouted down G.H.W. Bush's plan). Detaining someone because they may be illegal doesn't seem sensible or practical to me. And this isn't a fight Arizona could win on it's own by going after the immigrants themselves.

With more arrests and deportations, that would require more of those privately owned prisons. One can see the incentive for a few politicians/businessmen to push this law into being. In the meantime, they sugar coat it with some rubbish that gets readily gobbled up and regurgitated from the mainstream media into the mouths of the American masses.

Is that like an NWO thing?

You tell me, Phat.

[tzor]

Personally I don't care what the Mexican government's stance is; I'm an American. And I hold firmly to very ideal that was put into words and placed at the foot of the Statue of Liberty:

That does it. F**** you Juan. As the grandson of immigrants who had to come through the country through Elis Island; who had to endure tons of hardship; standing in line and endure all the hardships of being treated like a number, having their heirtage occasionally stripped from them because it didn't sound English enough; then going through the rigors of citizenship which included learning about the country they arrived in and the English language; I am sick and tired of those damn Mexicans who treat citizenship like a bloddy football game; just because you crossed the end zone doesn't mean you scored.

You are the type of person who will use all sorts of international codes of law when it suits your advantage. The United States has the most generous immigration policy there is. Every single illegal immigrant means one less damn legal immigrant to our shores. Why in hell do you think Mexico is more worthy than India, Africa, Asia, and South America and Europe?

Illegal immigration hurts legal immigrants; it insults legal imigrants; it insults the sons and daughters of legal imigrants; that means it insults all Americans!

[Nobunaga]

... Illegals should be deported, every last one of them.

... Citizenship should not be granted as reward for a favorable geographical location when born (though I'm flexible on this one).

... Those who hire illegals, knowing they are illegals, should be very severly fined and/or serve time in prison.

... Bingo, problem solved. No more illegal immigration, everybody happy. I should be President.

...

[Borderdawg]

... Illegals should be deported, every last one of them.

... Citizenship should not be granted as reward for a favorable geographical location when born (though I'm flexible on this one).

... Those who hire illegals, knowing they are illegals, should be very severly fined and/or serve time in prison.

... Bingo, problem solved. No more illegal immigration, everybody happy. I should be President.

...

You've got my vote!!

[beezer]

This is simply not born up by the evidence.

yes it is. Illegal immigrants by their very definition are illegals. They are breaking the law. Therefore, it's a 100% crime rate.

And what problem does that particular crime cause? Truly, what problem?

And what problem does not committing that particular crime cause? Truly, what problem?

[Phatscotty]

player is ok breaking any law, so long as someone else is already breaking it...

[thegreekdog]

we already have statutes to deal with violent crime. I propose we make all immigration legal and require people to get a social security number and "register" (for lack of a better term) with the federal government. Anyone committing a violent crime is punished accordingly.

Alright I know you're upset with me going this direction, but you're not dealing with the original crime. Illegal immigrants are disrespecting our laws by coming here without proper papers in the first place. If they are not willing to abide by current laws, they will not abide by any other standard of the law that we set up. Once you eliminate the original standard, they are going to see how far they can go with not abiding by the changed standard.

I'm going to use my gun analogy now - people may commit crimes with guns. Do you propose that we outlaw guns? Or do you propose that we prosecute the people who commit crimes with guns? Clearly, I support the latter and not the former. Illegal immigrants may commit crimes. Do you propose we outlaw illegal immigration? Or do you propose that we prosecute the people who commit the crimes. Again, I choose the latter and not the former.

This is absurd in my opinion (you're not absurd, personally - neither is Player). I'll go back and repeat that you're not dealing with the original breaking of the law. With the gun analogy, current law says that the act of owning a gun is lawful. With our current immigration law, the act of illegally entering the country is in itself a breaking of the law. Illegal immigrants may choose to use the breaking of immigration law and compound the problem by committing other acts of violent crime (many do), but the original act of crossing the border illegally is the act of defiance itself.

You're way of dealing with it (if I understand correctly) is to just make illegality legal. That's a slippery slope and I think it's a dangerous one.

I'm not sure what this means, but I'd like your opinion. Do you think that the Anglo-Americans were right in trying to kick the illegal (and legal) Irish, Greeks, Italians, etc. out of the country back in the 19th and 20th centuries? Again, I see no difference between the anti-immigrant rhetoric of the 19th and 20th centuries and the anti-immigration rhetoric I see now.

What I was saying is that there is not reconciling your position with mine on this point. You are entitled to your opinion, but when you reject the basis of my argument and I reject yours, I think it's just better to not continue arguing. At some point I just have to respect your right to believe this particular point. The only way of reconciling it is at the ballot box.

Yes, they are committing a crime. A crime that hurts no one. I was referring to the violent crimes that you were referring to. There are people who may or may not be committing a violent crime (the reason you give for enforcing immigration laws).

My point was that illegal immigrants, particularly on the southern border, are committing violent crimes - this is a symptom of the original and intentional violation of our immigration laws. Once you don't enforce the original standard, there's no reason for illegal immigrants to believe you'll enforce others.

Now, to your point about them committing a crime that doesn't hurt anyone. If that's the case then why don't we just get rid of all boundaries and property lines? Why can't people just enter business buildings when they're not operating? It's not really hurting anyone. Why can't anyone walk onto your property when they feel like it? They're not harming anyone by doing so. Why can't anyone just enter your home when they feel like it? They're not harming anyone by doing so. I say that if you try to keep people from coming into your home or property then you are violating their civil rights. They are people with the same rights as yourself.

To use the reasoning of our glorious president as it applies to people in your neighborhood, Greekdog - "In the 21st century, we are not defined by our fences, gates, garage or screen doors, but by our bonds. Let us stand together. Let us face the future together. Let us work together"

Oh stop it. We were having a great discussion until you went all intellectually dishonest here. Divesting ourselves of immigration quota is the best solution to violent crime problems committed by illegal immigrants.

There's nothing intentionally dishonest on my part. I think it's a legitimate point to question the idea that when some statute becomes tough to enforce we just quit and make it legal. If you apply that reasoning to other areas of the law you could have a very troublesome world. I could turn that around and say you are being intellectually dishonest because you lack the will to enforce the current immigration laws. I wouldn't do that because I've read your stuff here on the forums and know that you don't try to do that.

So I think the question could be turned around to why don't people have the political courage or will to enforce the law? If people don't, then what's to keep them from using that same logic with other areas of the law? From people I talk to at work and around town, it's because it's a matter of practicality and not a respect for the rule of law.

I started replying and realized it might be better to wait until I have more time. I'll get back to you.

[DangerBoy]

This is simply not born up by the evidence.

yes it is. Illegal immigrants by their very definition are illegals. They are breaking the law. Therefore, it's a 100% crime rate.

And what problem does that particular crime cause? Truly, what problem?

And what problem does not committing that particular crime cause? Truly, what problem?

For starters, less illegals voting Democrat.

[Juan_Bottom]

That does it. F**** you Juan. As the grandson of immigrants who had to come through the country through Elis Island; who had to endure tons of hardship

Ok, who do you think I am? an illegal immigrant?
Well, MY GRANDFATHER was also a legal immigrant. He was a Norwegian Partisian during WWII. His father was a naval officer in the Norwegian Navy.
When the Germans demanded that the ship my Great-Grandfather was on surrender; The Norwegians decided instead that it would be cooler if they would fight to the death. And they did. No one ever saw my Great-Grand-Father again. After the Norwegians were defeated, the story goes that a local police official working with the Germans detained and raped my grandfather's sister. My grandfather killed him on the street and fled. Later, he was badly injured by a bomb he was supposed to place on a telephone line or something. Rather than leave him for the Germans, the English took him with them when they fled Norway. From there, he joined the Royal Air Force. When the American's finally joined the war, he enlisted in the American Air Force.
After the war, he tried in vain his whole life to find his sister; who was the only family that he had left after his father died. No one is sure what happened to her, but my grandfather could never go back to Norway because he was wanted for the murder of the police official. After he died a pauper in the 90s, his bank took everything that he had and sold it at auction. This is including his war medals (the only one I can remember from my childhood is the Purple Heart). I have nothing from him save blurry memories.
My grandmother is/was a Chippewa Indian from Shell Lake. She also died in the late 90s. The KKK was active on her reservation and she spent all of her life pushing back. I mean it, she was a scrapper. But anyway, she was also an NA. Which kinda trumps anyone's immigration.
And of course you know, several of my family members did marry legal immigrants from Mexico.

So you can suck mah balls Tzor. EVERYONE'S family had to deal with some stupid sh*t in their lives/history.
BUT! I am not my Grandfather. His story has impacted me, and shaped my views, but I am not him. Yet I admit that it's a terribly large shadow to live in for me to be so close to such great men.



How can I say that what my family went through to earn the right of being American is any better than what anyone from the nations south of us have gone through? At least when these people come here, they are actually experiencing these true hardships firsthand. They aren't claiming that they deserve to be here because of some bullshit that their Grandparent's went though. The American dream isn't to get rich or anything of the ilk. We all take it for granted, but the real American Dream is just to live here.

You are the type of person who will use all sorts of international codes of law when it suits your advantage.

Don't all people? Wouldn't Jesus?

The United States has the most generous immigration policy there is. Every single illegal immigrant means one less damn legal immigrant to our shores. Why in hell do you think Mexico is more worthy than India, Africa, Asia, and South America and Europe?

I didn't set up the Immigration Quota's. This wasn't even a discussion of them so it seems unfair to judge me in this manner,.. because no, I don't like them either.

The thing about the Hispanic Immigrants when discussing this problem is that they have always been here. They will always be here. Deporting them constantly isn't going to do any good. We used to wear hoods and beat them, and that didn't stop them. We passed laws restricting their movements and participation in their own cultures, and that didn't do it either.
Some people travel from South America all through Mexico piggy-backing trains to get here illegally. You can't stamp out that type of determination with a quick deportation. You have to destroy the American Dream first. They are fueled by hope.

I don't even understand fully the mindset of most American's when discussing this. Admittedly our government has participated in several coups, and has subjugated South American and Mexican economics for our own gain.
So at what point did we decide that we have the right to hold onto this massive amount of wealth that we have accumulated in part by subjugating them. And then that we have the right to tell them that this is all for us and they aren't even fit to work shitty jobs here. Even while some of them have begged, crawled, and starved for days just to make it here to have a chance to work a shitty job. Here we are, profiting from Mexican migratory laborers one day, and using them a political scape goat the next day. I can admit without reservation, that if I grew up in South America I would probably immigrate here illegally if that was my option. Am I the only one?

But I'm not saying that they have the right to be here. I do believe that America has an obligation because of who we are supposed to be... and because of what we have done,....... to find a better solution to the problem.


And don't forget to gurgle them Tzor.

[Phatscotty]

Erasing the borders. A major stepping stone to the North American Union.

[Juan_Bottom]

Erasing the borders. A major stepping stone to the North American Union.

We're actually talking about stabilizing the border here, not a Union. Unless this is actually a crazy nutter thread and you have deceived me. The proposal on the table by Arizona doesn't appear to help stabilize anything, though maybe I'm wrong?

... Citizenship should not be granted as reward for a favorable geographical location when born (though I'm flexible on this one).

You're saying that my kids shouldn't be American's unless they do something to prove their worth. Like Sparta.
Awesome.

... Illegals should be deported, every last one of them.

Counting expired Visas, that's like 20 million people. That's just not practical.

[PLAYER57832]

Why in hell do you think Mexico is more worthy than India, Africa, Asia, and South America and Europe?

Why are they worth so much LESS? Why has the quoto for our neighbors been so much lower than other groups?

Why is the number allowed in so very far below the number here, working, raising families and living peacably? Sorry, but there are 2 primary reasons: Exploitation and racism.

[PLAYER57832]

This is simply not born up by the evidence.

yes it is. Illegal immigrants by their very definition are illegals. They are breaking the law. Therefore, it's a 100% crime rate.

And what problem does that particular crime cause? Truly, what problem?

And what problem does not committing that particular crime cause? Truly, what problem?

For starters, less illegals voting Democrat.

Are you and phattscotty twins all of a sudden? that seems like the kind of idiotic comment he would claim is "reasonable discusson". You usually do much better.

It was an honest question. You harp on the horror. Fine, what problems.

[DangerBoy]

Are you and phattscotty twins all of a sudden? that seems like the kind of idiotic comment he would claim is "reasonable discusson". You usually do much better.

It was an honest question. You harp on the horror. Fine, what problems.

You've already been answered, Player. You can dodge and justify all you want. Borderdawg answered you and others have as well. You refused to answer the question of how obeying the law harms anyone. I don't feel the need to repeat what's already been said because we'll get another lecture from you on the proper definition of reasonable discussion.

[PLAYER57832]

Are you and phattscotty twins all of a sudden? that seems like the kind of idiotic comment he would claim is "reasonable discusson". You usually do much better.

It was an honest question. You harp on the horror. Fine, what problems.

You've already been answered, Player. You can dodge and justify all you want. Borderdawg answered you and others have as well. You refused to answer the question of how obeying the law harms anyone. I don't feel the need to repeat what's already been said because we'll get another lecture from you on the proper definition of reasonable discussion.

Don't try to turn this around.

There is absolutely no question that putting illegal workers in jail harms them and their families, including legal children.
As forr the rest, the violance is not tied to people wanting to come here to work. It is an entirely seperate issue that is actually made worse by making it so much harder for those who just want to work.
The biggest problem is and always has been employers. Employers who see illegal workers as nice, convenient ways to avoid safety and other rules. Not all who hire illegals are exploiters, no. Problem is that when the exploiters are allowed to get away with it, then others pretty much have to do the same. Wages are reduced for all of us.

BUT, and here is the critical point. ALL of those real problems would be solved by simply allowing them to come here legally. Come here, get a job and you can stay. Don't have ajob.. you gotta leave.

You guys keep going around and around, but when we nail you down you want to claim this is about safety, about violant crime, terrorists, deadbeats on welfare and everything else. Deadbeats on welfare are CITIZENS, not aliens. Most criminals are CITIZENS. The percentage of violant criminals among illegal aliens is lower than in the general population of citizens, not higher.

Yet, when I or anyone else challenge you on these, all you do is claim "see how idiotic they are.. they just want to give our country away". THAT is why more than a couple of us do say "racism". It is because you cannot come up with any real and true reasons OTHER THAN racism.

So, fine, you have real reasons.. explain them.

[silvanricky]

Player's losing it! Stand back!!!

[Phatscotty]

Despite a few of my own friends showing me their new "Do I look illegal" T-shirts, and then me sitting them down and showing them the bill they thought they were protesting, only to do THEE BIGGEST 180 I have ever seen.

Knowledge is Power!

READ THE BILL http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=116155

[john9blue]

What problem does me smoking marijuana daily cause? Truly, what problem?

You see, things that have no obvious drawbacks can actually cause big problems that are less obvious (in Arizona's case, a drainage of federal funds).

[PLAYER57832]

Player's losing it! Stand back!!!

Like I said.. you cannot come up with anything but unfounded rhetoric.

[thegreekdog]

Bradley - I want to start this over again with a few leading-type questions:

(1) Do you think the American establishment in the 19th and 20th centuries had an anti-immigration view of peoples from places like Ireland, Italy, China, Japan, Greece, and Eastern Europe?

(2) If the answer to #1 is yes, what were their main concerns? I tend to think it was the threat of non-assimilation, the language barrier, that they took lower paying jobs (and therefore were seen as uneducated), that they congregated in their own area of cities (i.e. China Towns and Little Italys), and that they brought with them a criminal element created, in part, to protect their culture (i.e. the Mafia).

(3) Do you think the concerns illustrated in #2 are the same concerns that the American establishment in the 21st century has regarding Mexicans? Because I think they do. And I think that the concerns of the American establishment in the 19th and 20th centuries regarding immigrants were unfounded and hyped up. So, I think the American establishment's concerns today are unfounded and hyped up. And I do live in an area with a lot of Mexican immigrants (yes, New Jersey has them).

Bottom line - I don't think we should not enforce our laws. In fact, I think if the federal government enforced the laws, we wouldn't have to have a bill in Arizona or this discussion at all. However, I think the underlying law needs to be changed. That's my contention - change the immigration quotas; make it easier for Mexicans who want to come here and work and pay taxes to come here and work and pay taxes. That would solve a lot of problems, I think. And it's not the same as saying "Let's just make murder legal." Because, really, immigrants help society... as we've seen in the 19th and 20th centuries.

[PLAYER57832]

Well put, greekdog.

[Juan_Bottom]

What problem does me smoking marijuana daily cause? Truly, what problem?

You see, things that have no obvious drawbacks can actually cause big problems that are less obvious (in Arizona's case, a drainage of federal funds).

I believe I can speak for all those on my side of the fence here, when I say this problem would be solved if they made them legal residents in one form or another. Then the illegals (esp employers) would all be paying all taxes. Plus they couldn't be political scapegoats either. Otherwise, they'll just keep coming back and creating holes in your budget.

[Phatscotty]

What problem does me smoking marijuana daily cause? Truly, what problem?

You see, things that have no obvious drawbacks can actually cause big problems that are less obvious (in Arizona's case, a drainage of federal funds).

I believe I can speak for all those on my side of the fence here, when I say this problem would be solved if they made them legal residents in one form or another. Then the illegals (esp employers) would all be paying all taxes. Plus they couldn't be political scapegoats either. Otherwise, they'll just keep coming back and creating holes in your budget.

I must admit, this is a true discussion. I like it.

My only problem, #1 above all else, is that people are turning to the government to fix the problem. this is the same gov't that has not been able to do shit. It is not for a lack of power to be able to act (although I am sure it will be in the future...)

What we know so far, the federal gov't is unable and unwilling to do anything about the problem. The federal gov't is even calling people racist and making HUGE LIES, rather than actually READING THE BILL.

THE PEOPLE are going to take a shot at it now...

[john9blue]

Is it truly that easy to just give amnesty to everyone here illegally? And what kind of message does that send, anyway? "We have these laws that you didn't follow but that's OK". I wonder if any other country has done anything like that in recent years.