Eight Thoughts [Quenched]

sfhbballnut · Post by **sfhbballnut** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:37 pm

what if you only had to control one of the mixes?

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:43 pm

And people think Conquer 4 is confusing. Every time I look at a new update the map makes less and less sense to me. Visually it looks nice, maybe just a bit too busy, thus half the confusion.

sfhbballnut · Post by **sfhbballnut** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:45 pm

I'm lovin this map, top notch visuals and looks like it's gonna be a heck of a thing to play, can't wait.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:07 pm

sfhbballnut wrote:what if you only had to control one of the mixes?

I've done live plays and the +4 seems to border on being an overpowered bonus, making it easier to obtain doesn't make a lot of sense to me. In fact we've already considered dropping the continent bonus to +3 without such a change.

I'm not sure how much more we can explain things without turning the map into a sea of text that people will only need to read their first time playing.

Spockers · Post by **Spockers** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:19 pm

I hate to be going backwards here, but while I don't mind the concept of your map, I can't get past the negative bonus.

I can't understand the point of being punished for owning territories.

Also, do you have to own then whole 'continent' segment thing to get the ally/enemy extra bonus? or just the country with they symbol?

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:24 pm

Coleman wrote:I'm not sure how much more we can explain things without turning the map into a sea of text that people will only need to read their first time playing.

I know how you feel. In all honesty I haven't read a lot of the posts so that's probably why it doesn't make much sense at first glance. However, you need to consider that most people who are going to play the map will most likely never visit the foundry let alone this thread.

Like I said I haven't read a lot of posts, so I apologise if this has already been mentioned... but perhaps tone down all those textures. They might look nice, but it's possibly something you'll need to consider to help improve gameplay.

sfhbballnut · Post by **sfhbballnut** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:29 pm

I don't see what's so confusing. This looks awsome, not just visualy, but it'd be a blast to play

Teya · Post by **Teya** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:34 pm

I just find the whole thing confusing. Im not even going to bother trying to understand it.
I think widowmakers needs to try something new with his graphics as well. To me there has been no variations in anything he has done, which in the end just gets boring.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:52 pm

KEYOGI wrote:Like I said I haven't read a lot of posts, so I apologise if this has already been mentioned... but perhaps tone down all those textures. They might look nice, but it's possibly something you'll need to consider to help improve gameplay.

If you want to hear something scary, not only has it already been mentioned, but it has already happened. I'm not the art guy though, so beyond that there isn't much I can say.

Spockers wrote:I hate to be going backwards here, but while I don't mind the concept of your map, I can't get past the negative bonus.

I can't understand the point of being punished for owning territories.

Also, do you have to own then whole 'continent' segment thing to get the ally/enemy extra bonus? or just the country with they symbol?

Well the negative bonus was an idea presented by someone, but I forget who, and in a live play through it was really fun and slightly slowed down how much Matty owned us all (He was getting +7 instead of +8 for two) and it encouraged more play through the center.

Just the country with the symbol, which we tried to explain with the "Only territories with the symbols can be used for ally/enemy bonus" but apparently it didn't work. I almost want to scrap the whole enemy/ally bonus idea altogether but then this map is just a more compact Chinese checkers with some space map influences. Although, maybe that isn't such a bad thing. Less is more. If we scrap the ally/enemy thing then the center is going to have to give +1 or only CCU vets will try to use it.

Teya wrote:I just find the whole thing confusing. Im not even going to bother trying to understand it.
I think widowmakers needs to try something new with his graphics as well. To me there has been no variations in anything he has done, which in the end just gets boring.

Against my better judgment I'm going to try responding to this. I see that you've played Space, the territories being needed for multiple continents thing shouldn't confuse you. I also see you've played USApoclypse so you should be able to understand the negative/positive bonus causing territories. I feel the worst case scenario with this map is I'm just making something fun for the more veteran players of the unusual maps who like to try different things. I'll let WidowMakers respond to that other part if he wants, but I haven't seen anyone bash on his art before in this topic.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:36 am

sfhbballnut wrote:I don't see what's so confusing. This looks awsome, not just visualy, but it'd be a blast to play

Ok, I have some more time to elaborate.

- I don't really understand the Allied/Enemy system. If I hold Prosperity, Mandate and Fact I get +3? If I hold Demise, Mandate and Charity I get -1? Or is Mandate not part of the Enemy mix because of the "2 Enemy symbols" part?

- What's the point of the other symbols if they're not part of this Allied/Enemy system? Can the symbols attack each other?

- I understand you have shared territories, but I don't think it's represented very clearly.

- Do I get any bonus for holding the centre? It would appear not to be the case, but it could easily be mistaken that you get 8.

Sorry about bringing up covered subjects Coleman, my bad for not reading.

It is a bit weird though, having some continents with lots of texture and others without much at all.

While I respect WidowMakers skills, I get Teya's point. I'd like to see what he could do with a traditional geographical map.

JCRuffino · Post by **JCRuffino** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:26 am

KEYOGI wrote: - I don't really understand the Allied/Enemy system. If I hold Prosperity, Mandate and Fact I get +3? If I hold Demise, Mandate and Charity I get -1? Or is Mandate not part of the Enemy mix because of the "2 Enemy symbols" part?

The symbols on either side of a symbol are the enemy symbols to that one.

The symbols either side of the symbol opposite are allied symbols to that one.

At least I'm pretty sure that's right.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:31 am

Maybe WidowMakers and I should work on a bunch of magic 8 thoughts decoder rings and mail them to all the premium members...

Actually that is right, but my mind doesn't work the way you explained it.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:36 am

JCRuffino wrote:The symbols on either side of a symbol are the enemy symbols to that one.

The symbols either side of the symbol opposite are allied symbols to that one.

At least I'm pretty sure that's right.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you mean, but that's definately not made clear by the map. How's anybody supposed to just understand that? And if they do, wouldn't you need to spend half an hour before you take your turn just to figure out if anyone has a bonus? Sorry if it's just me, maybe I'm particularly stupid today.

Nikolai · Post by **Nikolai** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:59 am

This is an amazing map. Definitely keep going.
Let's see...
I actually liked it better when the diamond in the middle had a little more color to it - it looked like a real stone reflecting the colors around it. Just make it a copy of the stone under the 8.
41 territories seems to me to be an amazingly bad number. It's almost unplayable for six people, which totally rules out triples games, along with bigger games of other sorts. Maybe add two or three countries per Thought?
As far as the bonus for allied thought bases goes, I think it's really awesome. I was wondering if you have to have both enemies to suffer the -1 penalty, or if it's -1 per enemy? I prefer the latter, for the record. And would it be possible to clarify that you can only get enemy bonuses once you have ally bonuses, which I think is what you're doing, and that the only enemies that count are the enemies of the territory at the point of the arrow? I figured it out while reading the thread, but my first reaction was slightly confused.
I would also, for playability purposes, definitely recommend bringing the bonus for a thought down to +3, unless you take my earlier suggestion about increasing the number of territories per thought. Then it would probably need to be play tested again.
Probably more coming later, but for now... this is an amazingly hot map with a superb edgy feel. Definitely, definitely keep it up.

WidowMakers · Post by **WidowMakers** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:42 am

Teya wrote:I just find the whole thing confusing. Im not even going to bother trying to understand it.
I think widowmakers needs to try something new with his graphics as well. To me there has been no variations in anything he has done, which in the end just gets boring.

There is less variation becasue the initial textures were decided to be too MUCH. I reduced the highlights and shadows of each territory to better "tone" them down.

Nikolai wrote:This is an amazing map. Definitely keep going.
Let's see...
I actually liked it better when the diamond in the middle had a little more color to it - it looked like a real stone reflecting the colors around it. Just make it a copy of the stone under the 8.

I like th ediamond in the middle color idea. It will be fixed next update.

Nikolai wrote:As far as the bonus for allied thought bases goes, I think it's really awesome. I was wondering if you have to have both enemies to suffer the -1 penalty, or if it's -1 per enemy? I prefer the latter, for the record. And would it be possible to clarify that you can only get enemy bonuses once you have ally bonuses, which I think is what you're doing, and that the only enemies that count are the enemies of the territory at the point of the arrow? I figured it out while reading the thread, but my first reaction was slightly confused.

As the map reads. You get +2 for holding a group of 3 allies (according to the way the green lines on the circle key depics.) You get -1 for holidng a group of 2 enemies (according to the way the green lines on the circle key depics.)
I quote the map:
3 ALLIED symbol territories give +2. Then look at the green lines on the circle.
2 ENEMY symbol territories give -1. Then look at the red lines on the circle.

Then read under those. ONLY THE TERRITORIES WITH SYMBOLS CAN BE USED TO RECIEVE ALLY/ENEMY BONUS.
There are no other requirements for these bonuses.

I agree with Coleman. I don't know how to better explain this.

Nikolai wrote:I would also, for playability purposes, definitely recommend bringing the bonus for a thought down to +3, unless you take my earlier suggestion about increasing the number of territories per thought. Then it would probably need to be play tested again.

This will be updated also. Plus I am going to try and put in an explaination for the overlapping territories for the bordering continent bonuses.

KEYOGI wrote:-Do I get any bonus for holding the centre? It would appear not to be the case, but it could easily be mistaken that you get 8.

I will get rid of the 8 number and replace it with the word EIGHT.

KEYOGI wrote:-While I respect WidowMakers skills, I get Teya's point. I'd like to see what he could do with a traditional geographical map.

I am in the process of working on a traditional (somewhere in N.A.) map as wee speak. Now that King of the Mountains is Quenched, I will keep working on this and my new one. Most people, in the foundry, keep saying that there have been too many abstract maps lately. I don't want to get stuck making abstract maps and having people think that is all I can do. Stay tuned!

Molacole · Post by **Molacole** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:52 am

I much more prefrred the more detailed patterns, but it's not a make or break type of thing for me.

OK are we still on looks? I haven't had enough time to keep up with the foundry lately.

I don't like the army shadows. I don't know how to explain what I'm thinking, but for some reason I think of gelatine lol Do you think you could pull off a gelatine like type of army circle? I don't know... it doesn't make much sense to me either. Those shadows now don't go to good with the map. They're too plain while the rest of the map is very detailed. Did I mention I liked the detailed patterns better?

For infinite reason do you think you could throw some tint or fade into the white lines racing through it?

I think the background on page 8 map looked pretty kick ass. Something like that might let you bring back the true patterns while still havng it toned down. maybe, who knows, did I mention I liked the original patterns better?

On king of the mountain you faded the name of the color of each bonus in the legend. Do you think you could do something like that again while keeping the black appeal?

Ok that's all I can come up with for graffics atm.

For playability...

I read colemans post about how he used the center spot to prevent anyone from gaining a bonus. How about make that a -1 for holding it. It's going to be a frequently traveled spot so I doubt anyone will get stuck with it for more than a couple rounds unless it's by choice.

Molacole · Post by **Molacole** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:55 am

WidowMakers wrote:
Then read under those. ONLY THE TERRITORIES WITH SYMBOLS CAN BE USED TO RECIEVE ALLY/ENEMY BONUS.
There are no other requirements for these bonuses.

I agree with Coleman. I don't know how to better explain this.

explain what? The picture itself does that. I think the text might actually be confusing people into looking for something that isn't there. Keep it simple with the picture and anyone who can't understand that doesn't deserve the bonus

WidowMakers · Post by **WidowMakers** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:01 am

Molacole wrote:I don't like the army shadows. I don't know how to explain what I'm thinking, but for some reason I think of gelatine lol Do you think you could pull off a gelatine like type of army circle? I don't know... it doesn't make much sense to me either. Those shadows now don't go to good with the map. They're too plain while the rest of the map is very detailed. Did I mention I liked the detailed patterns better?

I agree about the army shadows but if I make them textured or less plain, the actual numbers might be harder to read. With all of the different colors, shadows are needed but I don't know what to do to make it theme well but also allow the numbers to look weel also. I will try so things and post samples.

I like the detailed patterns too. Thats why I made them that way in the first place.

Oh and one more thing. gelatine. LOL. I don't know what you mean either. Hopefully one of the samples I make will be what you meant.

WidowMakers · Post by **WidowMakers** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:18 am

Here are the samples of different army circles
Original

Proposal 1

Proposal 2

Proposal 3

Proposal 4

Proposal 5

OK. Lets have it. What do you think? My fav is 5!

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:27 am

the original. but make it whiter.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:29 am

The original but as it is, not whiter, in my opinion.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:33 am

what i mean by whiter is to be less transparent. as it is now there could be problems with yellow armies on yellow dots. if it is less transparent the army numbers will be more clear.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:38 am

Uh, there is a poll about the army circles, so if you wanted to vote that would be swell.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:49 am

there's no "original circles" option

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:04 pm

I like number 4, but with less outer glow, and a 1-2 pixel stroke at 65% opacity.

There is so much outer glow going on here i can feel the head from my monitor.