SIEGE! - PSD available - [Quenched]

[Jack0827]

this is a great map. I can't wait untill it is done and i can play on it

[MasterEddie38]

I think the colored shields look better. This looks like a great map and should be loads of fun to play when its done.

[mibi]

Can it get some more feed back regarding the game play of the outer wall and gate?

The various options are:

1. The outer wall can only attack via the stairs and the gate. It can be attacked via the stairs and the 2 smaller bridges. (current)

2. The outer wall can attack any of the 3 plains and 3 swamp areas across the moat, and via the stairs and gate. IT can only be attacked via the stairs and two smaller bridges. (old)

3 Something else.

Also there are currently 53 territories, should 1 be added to the tunnel to make an even 54?

and i should mention I will be out of the country from Friday until April 1st and unable to do anything with this map. Some assistance with the XML would be useful other wise i'll have to hack my way through it.

[DiM]

grey shields are better.

definitely add 1 more teritory but add it to the throne room not the tunnel.
this way you decrease the chance of someone getting the throne bonus from the first deployment. just add a horizontal line and split it in half.

regarding the wall i think theold system is better.

[WidowMakers]

i agree. The older system is better. That is what makes the walls more strategic.

[mibi]

grey shields are better.

definitely add 1 more teritory but add it to the throne room not the tunnel.
this way you decrease the chance of someone getting the throne bonus from the first deployment. just add a horizontal line and split it in half.

regarding the wall i think theold system is better.

the throne use to be split but people would rather have it as one. +1 bonus is nothing to brag about. and even if someone did start off on the first deployment with a +1 they would still be surrounded by 5 territories all with there eye on the throne.

[mibi]

i agree. The older system is better. That is what makes the walls more strategic.

here is what semus said about the walls, it seems to make sense to me

"I think you should reverse how the Outer Walls work. Meaning, they cannot attack outside the castle, all of those territories can attack them. So all the troops you put there are only for defense of the walls. To attack, you must climb down off the walls to the Gate, which is the only way out from the front. This both makes sense to me, and is a good balance between the great defensibility of the structure and difficulty attacking outward."

its easy to imagine having 20-30 armies on the wall in defense, and then all those armies just breaking out into the surrounding lands. with the current system the armies would have to go through the gate first.

[WidowMakers]

i agree. The older system is better. That is what makes the walls more strategic.

here is what semus said about the walls, it seems to make sense to me

"I think you should reverse how the Outer Walls work. Meaning, they cannot attack outside the castle, all of those territories can attack them. So all the troops you put there are only for defense of the walls. To attack, you must climb down off the walls to the Gate, which is the only way out from the front. This both makes sense to me, and is a good balance between the great defensibility of the structure and difficulty attacking outward."

its easy to imagine having 20-30 armies on the wall in defense, and then all those armies just breaking out into the surrounding lands. with the current system the armies would have to go through the gate first.

If you have seen LOTR Two Towers then you have seen the battle of Helms Deep. In that battle the walls can attack anything but the grounds surrounding the walls can only attack up the ladders they put there. That is what I envision every time I see this map or any other map people have suggestted having to do with a castle and attacking it.

[mibi]

i agree. The older system is better. That is what makes the walls more strategic.

here is what semus said about the walls, it seems to make sense to me

"I think you should reverse how the Outer Walls work. Meaning, they cannot attack outside the castle, all of those territories can attack them. So all the troops you put there are only for defense of the walls. To attack, you must climb down off the walls to the Gate, which is the only way out from the front. This both makes sense to me, and is a good balance between the great defensibility of the structure and difficulty attacking outward."

its easy to imagine having 20-30 armies on the wall in defense, and then all those armies just breaking out into the surrounding lands. with the current system the armies would have to go through the gate first.

If you have seen LOTR Two Towers then you have seen the battle of Helms Deep. In that battle the walls can attack anything but the grounds surrounding the walls can only attack up the ladders they put there. That is what I envision every time I see this map or any other map people have suggestted having to do with a castle and attacking it.

I agree it would be cool, i just dont know if i like the idea if the 30 armies defending the wall can just hop the moat and ravage the surrounding lands. it makes the walls less wall like and more of just another territory to go through. if there comes a day when a territory can attack and not invade then that would be ultimate, but not possible at the moment.

i think having the walls attack outwards would put the fortress at too much of an advantage... but i'd love osme other peoples opinions on this.

[oaktown]

i can see this potentially kicking off a run of castle/siege maps, with different gameplay variations... for instance, somebody may take an existing castle and make a map out of it. As such, consider giving this one a name, to make it distinct from future castle maps.

Mibi Towers?

[Marvaddin]

Im busy lately, so Im not reading all the posts, I will coment based on the last map picture on page 8.

About the graphics, Im liking the improvments. I just still really dislike the Plains texture... I still think its like a desert. The midlands one would fit much better to Plains. Or we could use some crops, etc... or change the name to desert.
Also, I like the torchs under ward numbers, but they could fit better in the tunnel, maybe?
About the shields, good idea... but shouldnt we have 2 shapes of shields? One related to castle and one to outlands?

About the playability:
Once the walls cant attack, its more realistic. However, still some things to discuss.

1st, the castle is still a bit strange...
- if its a fortress (not a castle), why do we have a throne? And why is it in the center of the hall? Its too big, too... Once its only a single territory, wouldnt need the number 1 anyway.
- im also up to reduce a bit the hall number of territories
- the ward continents are wasted. I would really join some territories and have a single continent there. As they are now, bonus of 2 for 4 territories, but with 3 and 4 borders...
- isnt strange that the inner wall have more territories than the outer wall?

2nd, other lands.
- I assume those wooden paliçades (forest camp) block attacks, right?
- The forest is still a good place too... together with the wooden camp, then... 6 territories, 3 borders, for a bonus of 5!
- The leader of the other camp, however, is near to a great wasteland... maybe would be good to balance the bonuses, but also a small continent there... it could be Plains 3, 5, 6, and 7, for example, and the remaining plains territories could join the midlands.
- About the midlands, also completely wasted... and there is not much to do about without a river... Instead of place the river in the west, where is much less needed, a river could be placed to south of Swamp 1, 2, 3 and Midlands 4, 5, 6. You could also put a waterfall near the tunnel exit, as if it was "hiding" it. Some bridges over the river, however, would be useful.
- The camp + gate bonus is also very very high. With the wooden camp, for example, it would be +6 to defend 4 territories.

Resume: please think about change some continents.
- Throne and hall: strong point; real chance to expand for the tunnel. All rest of the castle: wasted.
- Forest camp, and forest: strong point, too (and stronger than the castle one). All rest of the outlands, wasted.

[mibi]

Im busy lately, so Im not reading all the posts, I will coment based on the last map picture on page 8.

About the graphics, Im liking the improvments. I just still really dislike the Plains texture... I still think its like a desert. The midlands one would fit much better to Plains. Or we could use some crops, etc... or change the name to desert.
Also, I like the torchs under ward numbers, but they could fit better in the tunnel, maybe?
About the shields, good idea... but shouldnt we have 2 shapes of shields? One related to castle and one to outlands?

The plains texture stays, I actually took it from a photo of well, plains, its more of a wheat plans than anything else. I'd add some hay bails or something but it would jsut clutter the whole thing up. about the tunnel torches, i wanted the tunnel to be visually unobtrusive and easily forgettable, i will probably darken the shields there as well. Its suppose to be a secret passage way or something so its best not to throw flaming torches in there. The two different types of shields is a good idea, ill see about that.

About the playability:
Once the walls cant attack, its more realistic. However, still some things to discuss.

1st, the castle is still a bit strange...
- if its a fortress (not a castle), why do we have a throne? And why is it in the center of the hall? Its too big, too... Once its only a single territory, wouldnt need the number 1 anyway.
- im also up to reduce a bit the hall number of territories
- the ward continents are wasted. I would really join some territories and have a single continent there. As they are now, bonus of 2 for 4 territories, but with 3 and 4 borders...
- isnt strange that the inner wall have more territories than the outer wall?

heh, its representational, not a real castle or fortress, if it was real there would be bathrooms and an armory and such but CC maps are only so big so i just reduced the elements to some type of castle/fortress amalgamation. and yeah, ill take out the 1 in the throne. I like the hall territories at 5 so the hall isnt too easy to take fro whoever starts off in the throne with a +1 bonus. I might up the war bonus to 3, same number of territories as the forest after all. The outer wall has 2 territories because it will bear the brunt of the attack.

2nd, other lands.
- I assume those wooden paliçades (forest camp) block attacks, right?

right

- The forest is still a good place too... together with the wooden camp, then... 6 territories, 3 borders, for a bonus of 5!

to powerful? i cut change up the 4 way border at the wooden camp to inscrease its exposure.

- The leader of the other camp, however, is near to a great wasteland... maybe would be good to balance the bonuses, but also a small continent there... it could be Plains 3, 5, 6, and 7, for example, and the remaining plains territories could join the midlands.

the river camp is 3 moves from the wall just like the woods camp but its 4 from the gate, and its 3 territories so its the lesser camp for sure, but it would provide a good expansion to the plains.. i dunno, there may be some balance issues there, maybe the plains should be +6

- About the midlands, also completely wasted... and there is not much to do about without a river... Instead of place the river in the west, where is much less needed, a river could be placed to south of Swamp 1, 2, 3 and Midlands 4, 5, 6. You could also put a waterfall near the tunnel exit, as if it was "hiding" it. Some bridges over the river, however, would be useful.

the midlands is the hardest territory to hold which is why it has the highest bonus, i dont expect people to hold it easily, its like europe.

- The camp + gate bonus is also very very high. With the wooden camp, for example, it would be +6 to defend 4 territories.

holding both territories on the gate is will extremely difficult. It borders 8 territories, the highest in the game

thanks for the feedback, i'll consider some changes

[Pro_Snowboarder]

For the balance issue in tha camps, you could move the bridge that conects the river camp 1 and plains 7, to connect river camp 3 and plains 4. Then it is equal distance from the gate as the foarst camp, and the second exit is also the same as the other exit from the foarst camp.

[mibi]

ok some game play updates here. I was thinking about what marv was saying in that the woods camp and the forest would be very powerful, and i thought that player would just circumvent the gate and choose the tunnel all the time since it was only 5 moves from the great hall. This would be armies would have to be pulled from the outer wall to defend and the whole thing would just weaken fortress.

so I added a shortcut to the tunnel via outer wall so the fortress defenders dont have to pull armies too far to thwart a tunnel attack. I also added more territories to the tunnel making it rather laborious to get through from either side. I reduced the tunnel bonus to 1 and the woods camp bonus to 1 also. I think this balances things out a bit.

thoughts?

[mibi]

For the balance issue in tha camps, you could move the bridge that conects the river camp 1 and plains 7, to connect river camp 3 and plains 4. Then it is equal distance from the gate as the foarst camp, and the second exit is also the same as the other exit from the foarst camp.

good idea!

[oaktown]

i understand the tunnel change and I agree that something needs to be done, but i liked the simplicity of one entrance on either end. And you have to figure the game won't be as simple as whoever has the great hall has the outer walls - now whoever has teh out wall can just by-pass the inner walls to get there, if they even care to get there. This change just does to the inner walls what the original tunnel design did for the entire castle.

What if the tunnel didn't go as far as the great hall at all? What if it only went to the east ward? Then you'd have your tunnel to break in/out, it would have a single entrance and exit, and it wouldn't compromise the defenses of the great hall.

I like the throne + walls bonus, but I actually don't think the throne/great hall is worth enough to start with. As it is now I'd rather start by going after the forest, which yields a better bonus than the great hall yet has fewer territories, and is much easier to defend.

[mibi]

i understand the tunnel change and I agree that something needs to be done, but i liked the simplicity of one entrance on either end. And you have to figure the game won't be as simple as whoever has the great hall has the outer walls - now whoever has teh out wall can just by-pass the inner walls to get there, if they even care to get there. This change just does to the inner walls what the original tunnel design did for the entire castle.

well normally the outer wall is only 5 moves from the tunnel, now its 4, so its not a huge change, but i could divide the east outer wall into two sections, one closer to the tunnel. however lets say someone has the throne/great hall and the all walls, and and another play does manage to breach the gate and maybe the inner wall, then the new tunnel would allow the armies on the outer wall to fortify the great hall, perhaps sacrificing the outer wall to avoid being eaten from the inside out.

What if the tunnel didn't go as far as the great hall at all? What if it only went to the east ward? Then you'd have your tunnel to break in/out, it would have a single entrance and exit, and it wouldn't compromise the defenses of the great hall.

thats an idea, it would make the throne/great hall more powerful due to the one border

I like the throne + walls bonus, but I actually don't think the throne/great hall is worth enough to start with. As it is now I'd rather start by going after the forest, which yields a better bonus than the great hall yet has fewer territories, and is much easier to defend.

your right, the great hall is 5 territories so it should be at least a +3

[mibi]

ok more updates,

the outer wall has 3 sections, the third being the one closest to the new tunnel entrance. this makes it the same number of moves from the main outer wall sections to the great hall via the wards/inner wall and via the tunnel. the tunnel is one less territory keeping it at a total of 56 territories.

also there are too different shield types as marv suggested, and a special one for the throne

and the river camp bridge moved to provide quicker access to the gate.
great hall is now +3
and some other other graphic tweaks which you probably wont notice

[spinwizard]

i think the borders on the outside of the castle should b less straight

[sully800]

I agree.

I know you said there is nothing to base the curved lines off of, but that doesn't really matter. I would put them in arbitrarily, just as you did with the current straight lines. Those blocky territories throw off the entire look.

Also, I know some people are satisfied with the current numbering system, but I really hate it. Especially with the large amount of continents, it will be confusing to see if you are attacking "forrest 1" or "midlands 1" or "swamp 1" etc. I believe your best bet would be to make up territory names because the numbering system is just not appealing. Keep in mind, the territory names could reflect items related to the territories themselves so you wouldn't just have to name everything in some wacky manner. Anyway, you may not want to do it, but I think it should be considered again.

[sully800]

Also,

Also- someone mentioned earlier that you should get rid of the 4-way corners but you never replied and they still exist. I am referring to the corners between 2345 in the midlands and 1256 in the midlands. 4 way corners make it unclear if the diagonal countries can attack, and since those borders are made up it will be very easy for you to fix.

it doesnt seem to me that one would think they could attack in a diagonal. but i can reduce the 4 ways if people suggest it so. the 4 ways on the continent borders reduce the exposure making it easier to hold however.

That is a general foundry consensus I believe (that 4 way corners should be eliminated). They have popped up in several maps and almost always the cartographers are asked to eliminate them. I can remember several cases in World 2.0 where Zim had to rearrange real country borders to eliminate the 4 way corners, and since your borders are arbitrary anyway it gives even more reason to eliminate them.

And I just noticed there is a 3rd one outside of the woods camp

[hulmey]

i agree with oaktown...as game play is its better to start outside the castle....I like the fact that battles are going to take place on the front brifge its very siege like.....

So maybe to help both issues you could take the tunnel off leading directly to the throne and make it only lead to the wall....this is far more realistic and it reminds me of the films Lord of the rings/the gladiator and Troy when the defenders have to escape through secret tunnels in the WALLS!!!!

Sully im gonna ask a silly question what do you mean by 4 corners?????

[mibi]

ok ok, the borders are no not straight... i hope people like them. also i took out almost all of the 4 way borders, all though im not sure why people dont like them so much. it just increases the exposure on the various continents, i left one in in front of the woods camp tho.

also im going to leave the tunnel as is, if it lead to just the outer wall that would be pretty pointless as no one would want to waste armies going the long way trying to get to something right in front of them. i think the tunnel and walls are balanced at this point.

[Nerrimus]

The great hall is currently a +4 for 4 territories and 3 borders. (including throne). A bit much :/ I think +2 for great hall was fine...

4 way borders : We don't know if swamp 5 can attack forest camp 1. Can they? Or can't they? Either way, people are going to come into the forum and complain... (Brunei - Sumatra )

The outer borders look quite blurry... could you fix that?

[sully800]

The new borders look great I think it improves the image a lot.

I do agree that they are a bit blurred, and there is something odd happening at the corner of Swamp 5. But its a big step in the right direction.