Hell. Is it a real place?

2dimes · Post by **2dimes** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:24 pm

vtmarik wrote: I mean, why wait for him to bring up another gem like this?

You were just kidding about this part, right?

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:18 pm

2dimes wrote:You were just kidding about this part, right?

I meant that we should let it die before he has a chance to bring up another one of these little stories.

Does that clear up the confusion?

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:52 pm

"I once complained about not having shoes, until I met a man who had no feet"

Jay
Did you mention that if he had enough faith they would grow back?

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:04 pm

In defense of Jay, the Bible states that with enough faith a man could move a mountain. Fact is, we don't have faith, or at least not complete faith- far from it. I once challenged myself to this. I looked at a mountain and thought, "wow, could I move THAT?" Obviously, being a rational kid, I thought, "yeah right. Impossible." I don't have enough faith to move mountains. That makes me a far lesser person than jay, I guess.

I'm not sure I believe someone's limb regenerated, simply for the reason stated by Backglass- it would be all over the media. I do, however, believe that with enough faith it could happen. I don't know if a man with the faith to ACTUALLY believe God would do that for him exists, but if there is such a man I believe God would do amazing things.

I'm with jay in that with enough faith, anything is possible. However, I don't believe the events he is citing truly happened; it would be international news, backwater village or no.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:54 am

Yupper! I'm a crazy nutjob. How dare I have the faith in God that believes He can do ANYTHING?! Now which is the greater miracle? A limb regenerating? The Red Sea parting? Lazareth being raised from the dead? Walking on water? Turning water into wine? Shadrak, Meshak and Abednigo surviving a firey furnace? Manna falling from Heaven? Water from a rock? Yeah VT I'm completely out of my mind. Either that, or maybe just faith almost the size of a mustard seed. Now I will go back to my padded room with the other crazies.

mr. incrediball · Post by **mr. incrediball** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:21 am

johnnyrotten wrote:Hell is a real place... and it's called YEOVIL!

oi! i live near yeovil! and yes it is hell... lol not as bad as lots of other towns and cities tho

mr. incrediball · Post by **mr. incrediball** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:26 am

jay_a2j wrote:"As a communist I don’t believe in heaven or the Bible but as a scientist I now believe in hell," said Dr. Azzacove. "Needless to say we were shocked to make such a discovery. But we know what we saw and we know what we heard. And we are absolutely convinced that we drilled through the gates of hell!"

Dr. Azzacove continued, ". . .the drill suddenly began to rotate wildly, indicating that we had reached a large empty pocket or cavern. Temperature sensors showed a dramatic increase in heat to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit."

"We lowered a microphone, designed to detect the sounds of plate movements down the shaft. But instead of plate movements we heard a human voice screaming in pain! At first we thought the sound was coming from our own equipment."

"But when we made adjustments our worst suspicions were confirmed. The screams weren’t those of a single human, they were the screams of millions of humans!"

can i ask where doctor azzacove is from? as a communist does he work for a communist government? because after what i know about the soviet union and north korea i don't trust communist governments as far as i can throw them

probably trying to scare the people into falling in line.

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:53 am

mr. incrediball wrote:
can i ask where doctor azzacove is from? as a communist does he work for a communist government? because after what i know about the soviet union and north korea i don't trust communist governments as far as i can throw them

probably trying to scare the people into falling in line.

Whether Dr Azzacove is a communist or not is irrelevant - that bit is just stuck into the story by people to try and make the story sound more convincing. I don't know if you're aware of this, but (most) Marxists were/are atheist - so the point the story is trying to make is that even a COMMUNIST was convinced they'd found hell, so it MUST be true. See?

Anyway, the story is balderdash - see the urban legend site below:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.htm

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:32 am

jay_a2j wrote:Yupper! I'm a crazy nutjob. How dare I have the faith in God that believes He can do ANYTHING?! Now which is the greater miracle? A limb regenerating? The Red Sea parting? Lazareth being raised from the dead? Walking on water? Turning water into wine? Shadrak, Meshak and Abednigo surviving a firey furnace? Manna falling from Heaven? Water from a rock? Yeah VT I'm completely out of my mind. Either that, or maybe just faith almost the size of a mustard seed. Now I will go back to my padded room with the other crazies.

This isn't about the power of God, you claim that a limb regeneration actually happened! This goes far beyond whether or not God can do something, since this would be God actually doing something tangible that can be observed and yet the only people who talk about it are the two missionaries who "saw" it happen.

If a limb regenerated, it would be front page news across the world. Political pundits would be pointing to it and waving it in the face of their secular-progessive enemies saying "HA! See? God does exist!" and church attendance would skyrocket to unimaginable levels.

I never said it was outside of God's power to do it, I merely said that if it did indeed occur, there'd be a lot more talk about it than two missionaries who claim to be the sole witnesses to the event.

So yes Jay, you have lost some credibility now having switched your story again from a regeneration actually occurring to just the fact that God has the power to regenerate a person's limb.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:43 am

vtmarik wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Yupper! I'm a crazy nutjob. How dare I have the faith in God that believes He can do ANYTHING?! Now which is the greater miracle? A limb regenerating? The Red Sea parting? Lazareth being raised from the dead? Walking on water? Turning water into wine? Shadrak, Meshak and Abednigo surviving a firey furnace? Manna falling from Heaven? Water from a rock? Yeah VT I'm completely out of my mind. Either that, or maybe just faith almost the size of a mustard seed. Now I will go back to my padded room with the other crazies.
This isn't about the power of God, you claim that a limb regeneration actually happened! This goes far beyond whether or not God can do something, since this would be God actually doing something tangible that can be observed and yet the only people who talk about it are the two missionaries who "saw" it happen.

If a limb regenerated, it would be front page news across the world. Political pundits would be pointing to it and waving it in the face of their secular-progessive enemies saying "HA! See? God does exist!" and church attendance would skyrocket to unimaginable levels.

I never said it was outside of God's power to do it, I merely said that if it did indeed occur, there'd be a lot more talk about it than two missionaries who claim to be the sole witnesses to the event.

So yes Jay, you have lost some credibility now having switched your story again from a regeneration actually occurring to just the fact that God has the power to regenerate a person's limb.

That's pretty much my stance on the matter too, vt. If the rest of you are telling jay he's a nutjob because he believes that an all-powerful being is somehow limited in its power, then I think you've lost some credibility yourselves. But what vt said is perfectly reasonable. I trust that more people on this forum but one would have heard of the incident if it even has a slight chance of having happened.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:49 am

vtmarik wrote: This isn't about the power of God, you claim that a limb regeneration actually happened!

So what are you saying? That God has the power to do it but hasn't because you didn't read about in the NY Times? Is it not possible that since God is all powerful He can regenerate a limb AND keep it on the down low? You are saying because I haven't heard of it, it must be false. Its not that it happened, Its that God can do it and if He chose to He could keep it out of the papers.

If a limb regenerated, it would be front page news across the world. Political pundits would be pointing to it and waving it in the face of their secular-progessive enemies saying "HA! See? God does exist!" and church attendance would skyrocket to unimaginable levels.

"Blessed is he who believes without seeing". And even if it were front page news, I don't think it would have the effect you are describing. People would still refuse to believe or they would believe the miracle and still reject God.

I never said it was outside of God's power to do it, I merely said that if it did indeed occur, there'd be a lot more talk about it than two missionaries who claim to be the sole witnesses to the event.

So yes Jay, you have lost some credibility now having switched your story again from a regeneration actually occurring to just the fact that God has the power to regenerate a person's limb.

I never switched "the story". VT you are a proven skeptic. If you walked into any Bible believing church and spent enuff time there you would hear of alot more testimony that you "wouldn't believe".

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:58 am

jay_a2j wrote:So what are you saying? That God has the power to do it but hasn't because you didn't read about in the NY Times? Is it not possible that since God is all powerful He can regenerate a limb AND keep it on the down low? You are saying because I haven't heard of it, it must be false. Its not that it happened, Its that God can do it and if He chose to He could keep it out of the papers.

Well, He never hid his miracles in the Bible, so why would He start now?

"Blessed is he who believes without seeing". And even if it were front page news, I don't think it would have the effect you are describing. People would still refuse to believe or they would believe the miracle and still reject God.

Are you saying that if someone witnessed proof of God that they would continue to say that there is no God? The reason that many athiests are athiests is because there is no earthly evidence. If there was I guarantee that you'd see a good number of athiests going to Church.

I never switched "the story". VT you are a proven skeptic. If you walked into any Bible believing church and spent enuff time there you would hear of alot more testimony that you "wouldn't believe".

So, since I'm a skeptic all of my claims and concerns are thus invalidated? Am I reading this right?

Yes you did Jay, you said that it actually happened and then when we come out and start talking about how we never read or heard about it you immediately switched into "How dare you question God's power" mode.

Forgive me if that seems unnecessarily defensive. If this did indeed happen, why not just post the article where you read about this. There's no need to jump into "Repel the Outlander" mode.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:04 pm

Actually vt, Jesus DID instruct the people he performed miracles on to keep their healings a secret.

They just didn't.

Anyhow, I acknowledge that it would be well within God's power to regenerate a limb and keep it on the DL. Has it happened? I don't know. COULD it happen? As I said before, with enough faith I could make the mountains stand up and move... but I'm such a doubting Thomas that I don't think it's within my capacity to do much of anything miraculous

But jay, let's not overemphasize what could very well be folk tales. I honestly don't think it matters whether or not someone's limb was regenerated.

What matters is that we believe that which Thomas doubted- that Jesus died and rose again. Whether or not someone's limb regenerated is of little consequence compared to that.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:14 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Actually vt, Jesus DID instruct the people he performed miracles on to keep their healings a secret.

They just didn't.

Anyhow, I acknowledge that it would be well within God's power to regenerate a limb and keep it on the DL. Has it happened? I don't know. COULD it happen? As I said before, with enough faith I could make the mountains stand up and move... but I'm such a doubting Thomas that I don't think it's within my capacity to do much of anything miraculous

But jay, let's not overemphasize what could very well be folk tales. I honestly don't think it matters whether or not someone's limb was regenerated.

What matters is that we believe that which Thomas doubted- that Jesus died and rose again. Whether or not someone's limb regenerated is of little consequence compared to that.

Hmmm was Jesus' death and resurection front page news? Did the world "believe"? Were the synagogs jam packed? I just think its rediculous to assume that it has to be front page news or it's untrue. (this is directed at VT btw)

I didn't overemphasize the limb regeneration. I mentioned it and VT went into "SEE! HE'S a LOON" mode. And from there it has spiraled out of control.

And I agree with your post.

2dimes · Post by **2dimes** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:19 pm

vtmarik wrote: Well, He never hid his miracles in the Bible, so why would He start now?

"Blessed is he who believes without seeing". And even if it were front page news, I don't think it would have the effect you are describing. People would still refuse to believe or they would believe the miracle and still reject God.
Are you saying that if someone witnessed proof of God that they would continue to say that there is no God? The reason that many athiests are athiests is because there is no earthly evidence. If there was I guarantee that you'd see a good number of athiests going to Church.

I should stay out of these things but...

If you read the accounts in the bible where Jesus was regenerating limbs in front of the Pharisee guys (It looks to me like they were the North American Christians of their time.)

There was never a "Gasp he healed that guys arm, Yay God!!" Type of reaction from everyone.

It was more often "He's working on Saturday, Kill hiiiimmmmmmm!!"

So if this limb regeneration thing actually happened. I believe it would either never hit any mainstream news and or I wouldn't buy it if it did.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Actually vt, Jesus DID instruct the people he performed miracles on to keep their healings a secret.

They just didn't.

How could they, if you saw it and believed it happened for real as opposed to an illusion you couldn't help yourself. You'd become worse than Jay telling everyone you could. All the time you were not eating or asleep you'd talk about it.

"I saw it with my own eyes, his fingers where all twisted and mangled, then he was healed!!"
Everyone else would be replying. "Does that guy ever quit?"
"Nope."

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:23 pm

2dimes wrote:You'd become worse than Jay telling everyone you could.

thats priceless.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:30 pm

2dimes wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:Actually vt, Jesus DID instruct the people he performed miracles on to keep their healings a secret.

They just didn't.
How could they, if you saw it and believed it happened for real as opposed to an illusion you couldn't help yourself. You'd become worse than Jay telling everyone you could. All the time you were not eating or asleep you'd talk about it.

"I saw it with my own eyes, his fingers where all twisted and mangled, then he was healed!!"

I'm not condemning the people who shared their experiences, I'm simply saying that Jesus didn't go paint his name on a billboard, and specifically asked otherwise.

And yes, Jay, the resurrection was indeed quiet for a good amount of time. That's because it didn't immediately effect people's lives like the miracles did. No one realized just what was done by that resurrection, except for a select few. In the case of the man whose arm supposedly regenerated, the direct effect on his life would be such that many people would notice and word would inevitably leak... and God never prevented word of His deeds from spreading in the Bible.

Anyways, it's all a moot point.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:30 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
2dimes wrote:You'd become worse than Jay telling everyone you could.

thats priceless.

As long as we're deflecting things, your avatar is misspelled.

It's He, not he.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:50 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:And yes, Jay, the resurrection was indeed quiet for a good amount of time. That's because it didn't immediately effect people's lives like the miracles did.

Or that it really didnt happen and enough time had past that nobody could prove otherwise. Hence more "I have heard testimony" copouts again.

devilseyesdd · Post by **devilseyesdd** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:22 pm

no just a place mad up just so u didn't do bad shit

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:40 pm

devilseyesdd wrote:no just a place made up, just so u don't do bad shit

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:42 pm

Backglass wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:And yes, Jay, the resurrection was indeed quiet for a good amount of time. That's because it didn't immediately effect people's lives like the miracles did.
Or that it really didnt happen and enough time had past that nobody could prove otherwise. Hence more "I have heard testimony" copouts again.

But unlike the "testimony" of someone whose arm apparently grew back, this "testimony" grew into one of the largest Churches this earth has ever seen. There is, of course, a great leap of faith in believing that Jesus rose from the dead, but it's the most important leap anyone ever needs to make, unlike believing that someone's arm grew back.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:45 pm

OA there is really no need to respond to backglass. It is futile.

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:58 pm

jay_a2j wrote:OA there is really no need to respond to backglass. It is futile.

That's right...ignore awkward questions

btw I miss the dancing bear

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:06 pm

Mirak wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:OA there is really no need to respond to backglass. It is futile.
That's right...ignore awkward questions

btw I miss the dancing bear

He rarely poses questions, if at all. He just denies, makes fun of, or twists the notion of God as he happily sits in the playground of the blind.

Yeah, the bear avatar is by far the most popular in my collecetion. That and Kermit.

Hell. Is it a real place?

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Re: Hell. Is it a real place?