Validity of the Bible

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:08 pm

Spockers wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Spockers wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: The Bible however is 100% accurate in its predictions. And they are not self-fulfilling propecies as you presume.
Do you have an example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H9l1SrsEGs
Ok, thats interesting and all, but they were all, as you put it, "self-fulfilling". In that, they were both predicted and fulfilled in the bible.

Do you have anything that isn't?

He may use the whole "Israel reborn" thing, but the prophecy states that Israel will reform in one generation free of their oppressors.

Find me one Israeli who isn't concerned that he/she isn't going to be blown up. You don't have to rule over a group of people in an official capacity to oppress them.

kclborat · Post by **kclborat** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:10 am

jay, i did not find this from "some atheist site". In fact, my friend wrote it. However, where I found it does not detract from it in any way. It still poses the question, "why should we live our lives by these ridiculous laws such as not eating shellfish?" what it seems to me is that this supports the idea that the bible is supposed to be inspirational rather than literal. Also, this was based off of gay marriage. Leviticus is where the bible is against homosexuality, but it is also the same place in the bible where it tells us that you should not sit in the same seat after a woman who was on her period sat there. my conclusion is this: laws such as the ones in leviticus, the ones that have less to do with basic tenets as to how to live your life, such as "dont kill" and "dont commit adultery" should be followed rather than the period-centric, arbitrary laws in the rest of the book. following on this, i also conclude that the bible should be taken not as a literal book but instead as an inspirational story book on morality and right/wrong.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:47 am

Spockers wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Spockers wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: The Bible however is 100% accurate in its predictions. And they are not self-fulfilling propecies as you presume.
Do you have an example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H9l1SrsEGs
Ok, thats interesting and all, but they were all, as you put it, "self-fulfilling". In that, they were both predicted and fulfilled in the bible.

Do you have anything that isn't?

They are not self-fulfilling prophecies. If I predicted that tomarrow I would eat corn flakes for breakfast, then the next morning I went to my kitchen and got myself a bowl of corn flakes and ate it. THAT is a self-fulfilling prophecy. An OT author stating something is going to happen. Then hundreds of years later a different author in the NT states that it occured is not self-fulfilling.

MeDeFe · Post by **MeDeFe** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:06 am

jay, the example you gave is also self-fulfilling, the only case when a prophecy isn't is if the person(s) fulfilling it don't know about the prophecy.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:12 am

stinkycheese wrote:Jay, since we all know you like to respond to only certain things, I'm going to ask that you respond to this part of his reply!

Careful Stinky...when you ask the hard questions or poke his soft underbelly of faith...you become DEAD to him!

morph · Post by **morph** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:38 am

heavycola wrote:
morph wrote:
s.xkitten wrote:you'll note he ignored the other post...

actually what i notice, no one has adressed my titanium question, they found it along the ark, and no one told me how hard it is to make titanium and if it was even possible that people back then had the technology to make it...
Titanium is an element, and so cannot be made. It is pretty common too.

ok, but it comes with titanium bars now, you have to melt it and reform it, does anyone know how hot it has to be, so it can be melted and molded into the form that would be useful back then?

MeDeFe · Post by **MeDeFe** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:07 am

I think... really very hot.

Spockers · Post by **Spockers** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:11 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Spockers wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Spockers wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: The Bible however is 100% accurate in its predictions. And they are not self-fulfilling propecies as you presume.
Do you have an example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H9l1SrsEGs
Ok, thats interesting and all, but they were all, as you put it, "self-fulfilling". In that, they were both predicted and fulfilled in the bible.

Do you have anything that isn't?

They are not self-fulfilling prophecies. If I predicted that tomarrow I would eat corn flakes for breakfast, then the next morning I went to my kitchen and got myself a bowl of corn flakes and ate it. THAT is a self-fulfilling prophecy. An OT author stating something is going to happen. Then hundreds of years later a different author in the NT states that it occured is not self-fulfilling.

Ok, I understand that, but lets be honest, you're begging the question.

Can you give an example of a prophecy made in the bible where evidence of it being fulfilled can be found outside of it?

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:17 am

MeDeFe wrote:I think... really very hot.

In order to obtain pure titanium from its mineral deposits (in this case Titanium dioxide) you have to heat it to 800 degrees fahrenheit. I'm not sure if antediluvian blacksmiths could work it into bands for shipbuilding.

More info obtained:
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/20 ... anium.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

SirSebstar · Post by **SirSebstar** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:14 am

Does it not strike you as odd that we discuss taking the bible literal, and at the same time not discuss the bible in its original language...???

after all, there are huge differences and problems in translating the bible into e.g. english.
or is the king james version the only 'real' bible ???

lol

MeDeFe · Post by **MeDeFe** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:19 am

That's been the case for 2000 years now. I guess we're getting used to it.

kclborat · Post by **kclborat** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:13 am

who was it who said that he saw titanium on the boat? How did you know that?

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:51 am

Spockers wrote: Can you give an example of a prophecy made in the bible where evidence of it being fulfilled can be found outside of it?

Here is a link, there are so many that can be proven historically accurate....

http://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:06 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Spockers wrote: Can you give an example of a prophecy made in the bible where evidence of it being fulfilled can be found outside of it?

Here is a link, there are so many that can be proven historically accurate....

http://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm

Fine...actually TYPE one...enough with the links. If you want to have a debate, YOU write something down, and we will reply.

Give us a prophecy please, so that we may joyfully debunk it...not some website.

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:44 am

Give us a prophecy please, so that we may joyfully debunk it.

careful dude, that sounds like a prayer...

I was reading through some creationist websites today and i found this - by Kurt Wise, a creationist who got his PhD from Harvard:

"I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand."

One of saddest and most pathetic things I have ever read.

Richard Dawkins' reply from somewhere else: "Understandably enough, creationists who aspire to be taken seriously as scientists don’t go out of their way to admit that Scripture—a local origin myth of a tribe of Middle-Eastern camel-herders—trumps evidence..."

JimG · Post by **JimG** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:59 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Spockers wrote: Can you give an example of a prophecy made in the bible where evidence of it being fulfilled can be found outside of it?

Here is a link, there are so many that can be proven historically accurate....

http://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm

practically everything is about Isreal..anything else?

Ectomancer · Post by **Ectomancer** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:12 pm

Heh, can you please be a little more vague JimG?

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:02 pm

JimG wrote:practically everything is about Isreal..anything else?

Exactly. Self fulfilling prophecies. It is written in the book...so we must do what is written...now we did what was written...and the book predicted it!

See how that works?

Why are these prophecies so vague anyway? Doesnt the prophet know what he is doing? Why not "On April 17th 2032 at 10:24pm, <BLANK> will happen."

Because, like all fortune tellers, if you are vague enough you will get it right.

I too can predict the future...please write these down:

In the future, there will be a great war between two large nations.
There will be bloodshed in the middle east, jews will be involved.
There will be flooding and drought and a change in the climate.
The supply of oil & fresh water will continue to diminish!
A Volcano will erupt, killing thousands in the mud & lava flows.
A dictator will kill thousands of innocent people.
A new disease will appear and kill thousands.
A new strain of Influenza will mutate and kill hundreds of thousands.
An earthquake will occur, killing many innocent women & children.

Now we wait.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:11 pm

If a man writes down "the Jews will be scattered" and "the Jews will return to their land" and it happens in real time not just written in the Bible. It is NOT the Bible fulfilling its own prophecies! IT IS HISTORY! Look up the facts. The Jews were scattered (as predicted in scripture). And in 1948 The Jews returned to thier homeland Isreal. (also predicted in scripture) My dog understands this, why are you having such a hard time with it?

cowshrptrn · Post by **cowshrptrn** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:28 pm

Well at that time the jews were already beginning to scatter, they were being persecuted at that time, its liek me saying there will be a conflict between israel and palestine in the near future, its probably going to happen.

As for them coming back, if you give it enough time, things will calm down in certain areas after a whiel and eventually jews will be able to get back to where they came from, that simple.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:32 pm

jay_a2j wrote:If a man writes down "the Jews will be scattered" and "the Jews will return to their land"

That is so vague it is hilarious! "Jews will be scattered"?! Over 2000 years you dont think that something akin to "scattering" might happen? The second one is self-fulfilling. It was written, so they strived for it to happen until it did, then the prophesy came true. Had the book said "Jews will take over Antartica" we would have seen a colony there by now because thats what the book said.

Give us something concrete jay.

HG Wells wrote about a wonderful machine that could travel underwater. One hundred years later, the submarine was invented.

Is HG Wells a prophet?

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:35 pm

jay_a2j wrote:If a man writes down "the Jews will be scattered" and "the Jews will return to their land" and it happens in real time not just written in the Bible. It is NOT the Bible fulfilling its own prophecies! IT IS HISTORY! Look up the facts. The Jews were scattered (as predicted in scripture). And in 1948 The Jews returned to thier homeland Isreal. (also predicted in scripture) My dog understands this, why are you having such a hard time with it?

It says that the Jews will return to Zion in one generation, free of their oppressors.

I don't know what news channels you're watching, but Israel is surrounded by their oppressors.

mightyal · Post by **mightyal** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:18 pm

I..S..R..A..E..L..
note the order the letters come in. think about the pronunciation.
it's not that hard people.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:41 pm

Backglass wrote: The second one is self-fulfilling. It was written, so they strived for it to happen until it did, then the prophesy came true.

They "strived for it"???? Um no. It was a result of WWII and the UN establishing the state of Israel in 1948. Millions of Jews dieing must have been part of their plan to "strive" for a return to their land! I don't know what you're smoking but its not tobacco. It is not self-fulfilling as the Jews had nothing to do with re-gaining their land.

areon · Post by **areon** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:00 pm

You're wrong, David Ben-Gurion and others spent decades petitioning the British to make Israel a Jewish state. They even gave a nice declaration after WWI but didn't carry through with their promise until after WWII. Try not to distort history 101.