BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN SHOWN IN SCHOOL

Iliad · Post by **Iliad** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:49 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Balsiefen wrote:so this is all old testimant

1 Cor. 6:9 is NT

Are you going to reply or try to ignore us?

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:52 am

Bertros Bertros wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Balsiefen wrote: Who was it in the bible who said it was wrong, was it Jesus?

It is in a few places in the Bible. Starting with Sodom and Gomorrah two cities that were destroyed by God and many of those people were homosexuals. Then I think in Leviticus it states, "A man shall not lie with another man as with a woman for it is an abomination to the Lord."

Also see 1 Cor. 6:9

There are probably more verses on this subject but these are the ones I know off hand.
That'll be Sodom and Gomorrah, the biblical story where God let Lot and his family (apart from his wife who if I remember he turned to a pillar of salt in a fit of rage for the heinous crime of looking over her shoulder) escape from the destruction of the city because Lot, being the reasonable man that he was, offered to the Sodomites his own young daughter to buggar rather than the two angels...

Nice, really good moral hidden in there somewhere... Jay, pick your examples a little more carefully perhaps... Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the most abhorent of the old testament stories...

Lots wife disobeyed God...they were not to look back at the city...she did. I myself try to steer clear of judging Gods judgements... not wise in my opinion. Hard to find meaning in the rest of your post..... it was too gruesome for you? Thanks for the info.

Iliad · Post by **Iliad** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:55 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Bertros Bertros wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Balsiefen wrote: Who was it in the bible who said it was wrong, was it Jesus?

It is in a few places in the Bible. Starting with Sodom and Gomorrah two cities that were destroyed by God and many of those people were homosexuals. Then I think in Leviticus it states, "A man shall not lie with another man as with a woman for it is an abomination to the Lord."

Also see 1 Cor. 6:9

There are probably more verses on this subject but these are the ones I know off hand.
That'll be Sodom and Gomorrah, the biblical story where God let Lot and his family (apart from his wife who if I remember he turned to a pillar of salt in a fit of rage for the heinous crime of looking over her shoulder) escape from the destruction of the city because Lot, being the reasonable man that he was, offered to the Sodomites his own young daughter to buggar rather than the two angels...

Nice, really good moral hidden in there somewhere... Jay, pick your examples a little more carefully perhaps... Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the most abhorent of the old testament stories...

Lots wife disobeyed God...they were not to look back at the city...she did. I myself try to steer clear of judging Gods judgements... not wise in my opinion. Hard to find meaning in the rest of your post..... it was too gruesome for you? Thanks for the info.

What about sending his daughter to the mob?

dude his post was good. Try to actually answer his posts instead of trying to dismiss them.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:58 am

OK, stop the Bible debate because a) it is pointless and b) it isn't relevant here.

Jay, the immense and absolute problem you have here is that you live in a country where homosexuality is legal. You have the right to teach your kids whatever you want in your own home, and you have the right to send them to church schools if you want so they get taught your system of beliefs and values there... But you CANNOT stop a PUBLIC school from at least showing them a perfectly legal and acceptable (to the government, at least - your elected representatives) film. If you take issue with the R rating that is fine, and I would also, but you cannot take issue with something that is perfectly legal in your country. If Christian parents are that sure in their moral convictions then they should either teach children at home that, although this is a legal and acceptable lifestyle for some, it is not acceptable in your religion and be happy that their child will remain true to their values whatever 'heathen' rubbish they get taught at school.

However much you think it should be illegal, homosexuality is not a crime in the USA and therefore there should be absolutely no prohibition upon showing it, discussing it and teaching about it in a public school. Feel free to send your kids to a religious school if you want, but public schools should be constrained by the law, not the beliefs of a section of its parents.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:03 am

Guiscard wrote:OK, stop the Bible debate because a) it is pointless and b) it isn't relevant here.

Jay, the immense and absolute problem you have here is that you live in a country where homosexuality is legal. You have the right to teach your kids whatever you want in your own home, and you have the right to send them to church schools if you want so they get taught your system of beliefs and values there... But you CANNOT stop a PUBLIC school from at least showing them a perfectly legal and acceptable (to the government, at least - your elected representatives) film. If you take issue with the R rating that is fine, and I would also, but you cannot take issue with something that is perfectly legal in your country. If Christian parents are that sure in their moral convictions then they should either teach children at home that, although this is a legal and acceptable lifestyle for some, it is not acceptable in your religion and be happy that their child will remain true to their values whatever 'heathen' rubbish they get taught at school.

However much you think it should be illegal, homosexuality is not a crime in the USA and therefore there should be absolutely no prohibition upon showing it, discussing it and teaching about it in a public school. Feel free to send your kids to a religious school if you want, but public schools should be constrained by the law, not the beliefs of a section of its parents.

Now if you can get the atheists to buy that, we might come to an agreement.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:06 am

Iliad wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Bertros Bertros wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Balsiefen wrote: Who was it in the bible who said it was wrong, was it Jesus?

It is in a few places in the Bible. Starting with Sodom and Gomorrah two cities that were destroyed by God and many of those people were homosexuals. Then I think in Leviticus it states, "A man shall not lie with another man as with a woman for it is an abomination to the Lord."

Also see 1 Cor. 6:9

There are probably more verses on this subject but these are the ones I know off hand.
That'll be Sodom and Gomorrah, the biblical story where God let Lot and his family (apart from his wife who if I remember he turned to a pillar of salt in a fit of rage for the heinous crime of looking over her shoulder) escape from the destruction of the city because Lot, being the reasonable man that he was, offered to the Sodomites his own young daughter to buggar rather than the two angels...

Nice, really good moral hidden in there somewhere... Jay, pick your examples a little more carefully perhaps... Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the most abhorent of the old testament stories...

Lots wife disobeyed God...they were not to look back at the city...she did. I myself try to steer clear of judging Gods judgements... not wise in my opinion. Hard to find meaning in the rest of your post..... it was too gruesome for you? Thanks for the info.
What about sending his daughter to the mob?

dude his post was good. Try to actually answer his posts instead of trying to dismiss them.

He WAS going to offer his daughters(and only because he felt that was better then them rapping the two male angels)....but it never happened because the angels stuck the mob blind! Get a full understanding of the story before you go on and on about it, that way you will be more equipped to argue your points.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:07 am

jay_a2j wrote:Now if you can get the atheists to buy that, we might come to an agreement.

Forget the Atheists for once and accept that, in this case, you've been proven wrong. What happened to 'turn the other cheek' and all that? Should I go out and murder people because others get away with it?

Come on Jay, I thought you had morals! You should be allowed to get away with reactionary bullshit like this because Certain secular groups do a similar thing? Who are you trying to fool...

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:12 am

Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Now if you can get the atheists to buy that, we might come to an agreement.
Forget the Atheists for once and accept that, in this case, you've been proven wrong. What happened to 'turn the other cheek' and all that? Should I go out and murder people because others get away with it?

Come on Jay, I thought you had morals! You should be allowed to get away with reactionary bullshit like this because Certain secular groups do a similar thing? Who are you trying to fool...

No, no, no. You state "Homosexuality is legal" so it can and should be taught in public schools. The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer are also LEGAL but we had atheists take it to the supreme court to get prayer out of school. Once you can address the double standard we'll talk.... until then you are just Christian bashing. And not making a good argument at all.

Iliad · Post by **Iliad** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:13 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Iliad wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Bertros Bertros wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Balsiefen wrote: Who was it in the bible who said it was wrong, was it Jesus?

It is in a few places in the Bible. Starting with Sodom and Gomorrah two cities that were destroyed by God and many of those people were homosexuals. Then I think in Leviticus it states, "A man shall not lie with another man as with a woman for it is an abomination to the Lord."

Also see 1 Cor. 6:9

There are probably more verses on this subject but these are the ones I know off hand.
That'll be Sodom and Gomorrah, the biblical story where God let Lot and his family (apart from his wife who if I remember he turned to a pillar of salt in a fit of rage for the heinous crime of looking over her shoulder) escape from the destruction of the city because Lot, being the reasonable man that he was, offered to the Sodomites his own young daughter to buggar rather than the two angels...

Nice, really good moral hidden in there somewhere... Jay, pick your examples a little more carefully perhaps... Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the most abhorent of the old testament stories...

Lots wife disobeyed God...they were not to look back at the city...she did. I myself try to steer clear of judging Gods judgements... not wise in my opinion. Hard to find meaning in the rest of your post..... it was too gruesome for you? Thanks for the info.
What about sending his daughter to the mob?

dude his post was good. Try to actually answer his posts instead of trying to dismiss them.

He WAS going to offer his daughters(and only because he felt that was better then them rapping the two male angels)....but it never happened because the angels stuck the mob blind! Get a full understanding of the story before you go on and on about it, that way you will be more equipped to argue your points.

but he would rather sacrifice his daughters, his family then two angels he never even seen before! I don't think that's a moral that should be promoted!

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:26 am

jay_a2j wrote:No, no, no. You state "Homosexuality is legal" so it can and should be taught in public schools. The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer are also LEGAL but we had atheists take it to the supreme court to get prayer out of school. Once you can address the double standard we'll talk.... until then you are just Christian bashing. And not making a good argument at all.

Did I say I approved of those actions?

Am I defending those actions at any point in this thread?

Is anyone else?

As far as I can see, your argument has now resorted to childish 'but he did it as well' whining. That's very Christian of you, Jay. Double standards mean absolutely nothing here. What we are talking about is the fact that you object to a legal lifestyle being shown in schools. How would you respond if the Atheists you hate so much said 'we'll stop suing over things like prayer when the Christians stop making a fuss over homosexuality in schools'?

Face it, Jay, the immorality of homosexuality doesn't stand up as an argument for the film being banned so now you're getting childish. I thought you were more sensible than that.

Why does every single thread have to come back to 'Christian bashing' of some kind. My partner is a (non-practising) Christian and she has made the same argument as me, as has my practising Christian father, in a family discussion about this. You have an immense chip on your shoulder and it seems to be completely clouding your morality in this case. My analogy still stands - can I murder or steal because others get away with murdering or stealing?

Bertros Bertros · Post by **Bertros Bertros** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:41 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Now if you can get the atheists to buy that, we might come to an agreement.
Forget the Atheists for once and accept that, in this case, you've been proven wrong. What happened to 'turn the other cheek' and all that? Should I go out and murder people because others get away with it?

Come on Jay, I thought you had morals! You should be allowed to get away with reactionary bullshit like this because Certain secular groups do a similar thing? Who are you trying to fool...

No, no, no. You state "Homosexuality is legal" so it can and should be taught in public schools. The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer are also LEGAL but we had atheists take it to the supreme court to get prayer out of school. Once you can address the double standard we'll talk.... until then you are just Christian bashing. And not making a good argument at all.

First up I wasn't Christian bashing or arguing about the bible, but just offering the suggestion that Genesis isn't really much use for backing up a viewpoint. My apologies for the sarcasm, I guess it is a little early (or late in the US) for that...

Secondly you can't compare the banning of prayer to the showing of a film with homosexual content. You can compare it to banning a film containing images of people praying in it. That would be the same, and as far as I am aware there aren't many folks fanatical enough to campaign against the showing of films containing people praying...

In the end its just a film, and not one that particularly glamourises homosexuality anyway. Its not like the cowboys ride off into the sunset hand in hand under a strategically placed product advertisement for extra strong durex (sorry there I go being flippant again)... We're surrounded by homoeroticism in life, look at the NFL all theat man flesh hugging each other and banging chests and then sharing a bath afterwards... very hetro!

EDIT: Sorry if ther NFL don't share baths but over here its been a standard after a team sport...

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:12 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Now if you can get the atheists to buy that, we might come to an agreement.
Forget the Atheists for once and accept that, in this case, you've been proven wrong. What happened to 'turn the other cheek' and all that? Should I go out and murder people because others get away with it?

Come on Jay, I thought you had morals! You should be allowed to get away with reactionary bullshit like this because Certain secular groups do a similar thing? Who are you trying to fool...

No, no, no. You state "Homosexuality is legal" so it can and should be taught in public schools. The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer are also LEGAL but we had atheists take it to the supreme court to get prayer out of school. Once you can address the double standard we'll talk.... until then you are just Christian bashing. And not making a good argument at all.

Huh? Just because they are Athiests dosent automatically make them less greedy or less likely to exploit the system, especially one with so many holes in it.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:48 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Guiscard wrote:OK, stop the Bible debate because a) it is pointless and b) it isn't relevant here.

Jay, the immense and absolute problem you have here is that you live in a country where homosexuality is legal. You have the right to teach your kids whatever you want in your own home, and you have the right to send them to church schools if you want so they get taught your system of beliefs and values there... But you CANNOT stop a PUBLIC school from at least showing them a perfectly legal and acceptable (to the government, at least - your elected representatives) film. If you take issue with the R rating that is fine, and I would also, but you cannot take issue with something that is perfectly legal in your country. If Christian parents are that sure in their moral convictions then they should either teach children at home that, although this is a legal and acceptable lifestyle for some, it is not acceptable in your religion and be happy that their child will remain true to their values whatever 'heathen' rubbish they get taught at school.

However much you think it should be illegal, homosexuality is not a crime in the USA and therefore there should be absolutely no prohibition upon showing it, discussing it and teaching about it in a public school. Feel free to send your kids to a religious school if you want, but public schools should be constrained by the law, not the beliefs of a section of its parents.

Now if you can get the atheists to buy that, we might come to an agreement.

Well, I agree 100% with what he said. Does that mean you agree?

jay_a2j wrote:No, no, no. You state "Homosexuality is legal" so it can and should be taught in public schools.

Hold on there cowboy...they were watching a movie. They weren't being instructed the finer points of how to become a homosexual. This was entertainment, even if you don't think it so.

jay_a2j wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer are also LEGAL but we had atheists take it to the supreme court to get prayer out of school. Once you can address the double standard we'll talk

Not a double standard at all my friend as Brokeback Mountain wasnt being "taught" and is not a religion. It's a movie, ie: Entertainment.

One Question: Have you actually watched the movie or is your entire argument based upon sensational news reports?

jay_a2j wrote:until then you are just Christian bashing. And not making a good argument at all.

Actually I have seen NO bashing from Guiscard and he makes a damn fine argument...you just keep trying to veer off on tangents instead of answering his questions.

Cynthia · Post by **Cynthia** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:50 am

I enjoyed that movie

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:52 am

Cynthia wrote:I enjoyed that movie

Thats because you actually WATCHED it, instead of forming preconceptions based on what a preacher-man TOLD you to think.

The1exile · Post by **The1exile** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:56 am

Backglass wrote:Thats because you actually WATCHED it, instead of forming preconceptions based on what a preacher-man TOLD you to think.

jay_a2j wrote:Of course not! Homosexuality is heresy!

Dancing Mustard · Post by **Dancing Mustard** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:13 am

This really isn't going anywhere fast y'know Jay.
You ignored me when I logically explained why your position was completely untenable (page 7; you pretended not to read it and didn't respond).
Now you're ignoring Guiscard after he's done the same thing.
You just keep shadow-boxing with your own counter-arguments; or else ignoring people when they explain why the logical extensions of your point of view lead to all manner of absurd consequences.
Seriously, if you're not going to engage with the arguments, what's the point of keeping posting here? If your mind isn't open to reason, and you're not going to bother responding to us properly; then why bother discussing the matter?

The only thing you've said for the last couple of pages is "other people have an equally untenable viewpoint, so mine is ok", and "my bible says gays are bad, so it must be ok to ban mentioning them on the strength of that".

C'mon quit dancing around the issue, it's becoming frustrating. Either admit your original outburst was in error; or demonstrate that you're capable of logically defending your point of view.

Dmunster · Post by **Dmunster** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:36 am

What is the Holy Ghost anyway? I picture Casper with a popes hat and a huge gold crucifix hangin from his ncek.

Dancing Mustard · Post by **Dancing Mustard** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:40 am

Dmunster wrote:What is the Hold Ghost anyway? I picture Casper with a popes hat and a huge gold crucifix hangin from his ncek.

It's what happens when you swear that you put the 'hold' button on your ipod, but it switches tracks in your pocket anyway; and you're like "oh damn, I was listening to the Fugees but now I've got Funeral for a Friend. Goddamn that frickin Hold Ghost!". Stupid 'Hold Ghost' = Stupid.

Sounds like you're thinking of the ghost of "Pimpin' Pope Urban VII" though, he's a whole different thing...
No seriously, there was a Pope Urban...

The1exile · Post by **The1exile** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:43 am

Dancing Mustard wrote:No seriously, there was a Pope Urban...

Yep, I think he ordered some of the crusades.

The1exile · Post by **The1exile** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:44 am

Dmunster wrote:What is the Holy Ghost anyway? I picture Casper with a popes hat and a huge gold crucifix hangin from his ncek.

It's the Holy Spirit, which is really a burning dove, or something like it. I speculate it might be a shark with laser beams on it's head, judging from what's said in Acts.

Dancing Mustard · Post by **Dancing Mustard** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:44 am

The1exile wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:No seriously, there was a Pope Urban...
Yep, I think he ordered some of the crusades.

Crusades = Big Drive-bys

The1exile · Post by **The1exile** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:48 am

Dancing Mustard wrote:Cursades = Big Drive-bys

Personally I think it's got more of the markings of a turf war. Them Muslims and jews was messing around on Christs territory, gotta show them who's boss.

Dmunster · Post by **Dmunster** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:49 am

Dancing Mustard wrote:
Dmunster wrote:What is the Hold Ghost anyway? I picture Casper with a popes hat and a huge gold crucifix hangin from his ncek.
It's what happens when you swear that you put the 'hold' button on your ipod, but it switches tracks in your pocket anyway; and you're like "oh damn, I was listening to the Fugees but now I've got Funeral for a Friend. Goddamn that frickin Hold Ghost!". Stupid 'Hold Ghost' = Stupid.

Sounds like you're thinking of the ghost of "Pimpin' Pope Urban VII" though, he's a whole different thing...
No seriously, there was a Pope Urban...

Quick on that post button. I edited that typo mere seconds after i hit submit, lol.

Balsiefen · Post by **Balsiefen** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:13 am

The1exile wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:Cursades = Big Drive-bys
Personally I think it's got more of the markings of a turf war. Them Muslims and jews was messing around on Christs territory, gotta show them who's boss.

it was basicly ordered becos the pope got tired of waching all the christian kingdoms killing each other so he sent them crucading to keep them occupied.

didn't work, when the english and french were organising their troops in northern france, Richard I launched a suprise attack on the french