Is Jesus necessary?

[Napoleon Ier]

Huh. Funny, I scanned the entirety of that post for relevant comments about metaphysics, and I couldn't find any. I guess it's your defeat we'll be accepting then, unless there's a surprise comeback argument that isn't based on "Christians believe in certain texts containing allegorical tales and are therefore wrong and stupid" you'd like to share?

Huh. Funny. I scanned the entirety of your posts for actual proof of these invisible creatures you so desperately need to survive, and couldnt find any, I guess it's your defeat we'll be accepting then, unless there's a surprise comeback argument that isn't based on "Christians believe in certain texts containing allegorical tales and are therefore right and brilliant" you'd like to share?

Hey, all I've ever said is that pointing out allegory in Christian texts isn't a valid criticism of Christianity. Now, if you want proofs of God, that's a different matter.

[spaceghst44]

Backglass makes a good point. An initial "starting point" for the universe is not necessary to explain the universe. It has been posited largely because human experience has been a beginning, middle, and end to most everything. It became necessary to have a god to be the prime mover if there was a beginning to the universe because there was no other explanation available. Now, however, we know that just because a question is not answered doesn't mean it cannot eventually be answered with scientific investigation, and that just because a question is unanswered doesn't prove there is a god.

Which also proves my point.

Backglass is making an argument based on the fact that you cannot prove that God exists. I am pointing out that you cannot prove that time does not exist, that the universe has been infinite. Therefore cannot judge and critize others on their beliefs because you are basing your beliefs on the same grounds.

People believe in what they want to believe in, and until there is actual proof, which I doubt will ever exist, arguing over these beliefs is trite.

[Backglass]

So you believe in something that cannot be proven...... interesting. Sounds like a religion to me.

That is because you are religious and therefor must attribute the same to others. I do not worship the universe.

All you do is say that there is no Creator by stating that matter and anti matter has always existed, which solves your beginning of life/time problem, but very crudely and childishly.

Crude & childish? Like believing in Santa Clause? Or the Easter Bunny? Or Angels, Demons & Gods?

To think that everything has always existed and that time had no beginning is extremely tiresome. I see no difference in believing in god and believing that time has always been infinite.

Anyone else see the problem here?

It seems to me that the only difference is that you believe in a different kind of fairy tale.

Absence of fairy tales.

Backglass is making an argument based on the fact that you cannot prove that God exists. I am pointing out that you cannot prove that time does not exist, that the universe has been infinite. Therefore cannot judge and critize others on their beliefs because you are basing your beliefs on the same grounds.

Can you prove that Leprechauns do not exist?! They are magical and hide in the shadows with their pots of gold! They would never show themselves to anyone! I know they exist...I have felt their magic wash over me on many occasions. One healed my Grandmother! I prayed to the Great Leprechaun and she got better! Proof!!!!

People believe in what they want to believe in, and until there is actual proof, which I doubt will ever exist, arguing over these beliefs is trite.

Yup, yet here we are. Some people believe in rabbits feet, lucky underwear and rituals (always blow on the dice!). Others believe in magical creatures.

[spaceghst44]

So you believe in something that cannot be proven...... interesting. Sounds like a religion to me.

That is because you are religious and therefor must attribute the same to others. I do not worship the universe.

I said that you believe in something that you cannot prove. This is the same argument that you used against Napoleon. You cannot prove what you believe in, which is just like religion.

All you do is say that there is no Creator by stating that matter and anti matter has always existed, which solves your beginning of life/time problem, but very crudely and childishly.

Crude & childish? Like believing in Santa Clause? Or the Easter Bunny? Or Angels, Demons & Gods?

or an infinite universe with no proof?

To think that everything has always existed and that time had no beginning is extremely tiresome. I see no difference in believing in god and believing that time has always been infinite.

Anyone else see the problem here?

No I do not. Please feel free to point it out.

It seems to me that the only difference is that you believe in a different kind of fairy tale.

Absence of fairy tales.

Can the absence of fairy tales not be a fairy tale itself?

Backglass is making an argument based on the fact that you cannot prove that God exists. I am pointing out that you cannot prove that time does not exist, that the universe has been infinite. Therefore cannot judge and critize others on their beliefs because you are basing your beliefs on the same grounds.

Can you prove that Leprechauns do not exist?! They are magical and hide in the shadows with their pots of gold! They would never show themselves to anyone! I know they exist...I have felt their magic wash over me on many occasions. One healed my Grandmother! I prayed to the Great Leprechaun and she got better! Proof!!!!

If you want to believe in leprechauns, then feel free. I am not here telling you what to believe or judging your beliefs.

People believe in what they want to believe in, and until there is actual proof, which I doubt will ever exist, arguing over these beliefs is trite.

Yup, yet here we are. Some people believe in rabbits feet, lucky underwear and rituals (always blow on the dice!). Others believe in magical creatures.

No here you are. I have never said what you believe in is stupid or wrong. I never said I knew the answer. I just think that you are an idiot for trying to destroy people’s faith.

[mpjh]

No body is trying to destroy anyone's faith.

In fact, the whole point of this thread is to point out that ANY faith or non-faith has a chance at eternal life (if there is one). At least that is the opinion of about half the Christians in the poll cited in the OP. I take that as an encouraging enlightenment of Christians.

[spaceghst44]

No body is trying to destroy anyone's faith.

In fact, the whole point of this thread is to point out that ANY faith or non-faith has a chance at eternal life (if there is one). At least that is the opinion of about half the Christians in the poll cited in the OP. I take that as an encouraging enlightenment of Christians.

So trying to rasing doubt is considered enlightenment or are you just testing his faith? Maybe Christians need to encourage more enlightenment on scientists.

[mpjh]

No body is trying to raise doubt, just report the results of a poll and get comments.

[spaceghst44]

No body is trying to raise doubt, just report the results of a poll and get comments.

And I have been quoting backglass not you. Unless you are the same person. read his comments to Napoleon and it becomes obvious that someone is trying to raise doubt.

[Backglass]

You cannot prove what you believe in, which is just like religion.

I also cannot prove whether anyone is, or is not, in the room next door. But simply because I believe it is empty does not mean I worship the "Holy Religion of the Break Room".

To think that everything has always existed and that time had no beginning is extremely tiresome. I see no difference in believing in god and believing that time has always been infinite.

Anyone else see the problem here?

No I do not. Please feel free to point it out.

You say that an infinite universe theory is "extremely tiresome", then turn around and say you see no difference between it and your god. Hence, your god theory is "extremely tiresome".

Well, it was funny to me.

Can the absence of fairy tales not be a fairy tale itself?

Ahhh...the old "Double Negative Anti-Anti-Fairy Tale" trick. You have bested me with your ingenious twists Yoda.

If you want to believe in leprechauns, then feel free. I am not here telling you what to believe or judging your beliefs.

Good for you. If you want to believe in talking snakes and winged people, then feel free. But that doesn't make any of them real.

I just think that you are an idiot for trying to destroy people’s faith.

All Hail the Great Destroyer!!!!

I could take the christian tact and proclaim that I am just trying to save you from wasting away your life/money/time on superstitions, legend & lore...but I wouldn't do that. I believe you have the right to worship whatever mystical creatures you desire, as long as it is done in your church/home, doesn't effect my kids at public school, me in the public park/courthouse and I don't have to pay for it. Hey, some people obviously NEED this faith in fantasy to get through the day/week/life. I have heard people say that "If I found out tomorrow there was no god, I couldnt go on living" and I believe them.

[spaceghst44]

You cannot prove what you believe in, which is just like religion.

I also cannot prove whether anyone is, or is not, in the room next door. But simply because I believe it is empty does not mean I worship the "Holy Religion of the Break Room".

To think that everything has always existed and that time had no beginning is extremely tiresome. I see no difference in believing in god and believing that time has always been infinite.

Anyone else see the problem here?

No I do not. Please feel free to point it out.

You say that an infinite universe theory is "extremely tiresome", then turn around and say you see no difference between it and your god. Hence, your god theory is "extremely tiresome".

Well, it was funny to me.

Can the absence of fairy tales not be a fairy tale itself?

Ahhh...the old "Double Negative Anti-Anti-Fairy Tale" trick. You have bested me with your ingenious twists Yoda.

If you want to believe in leprechauns, then feel free. I am not here telling you what to believe or judging your beliefs.

Good for you. If you want to believe in talking snakes and winged people, then feel free. But that doesn't make any of them real.

I just think that you are an idiot for trying to destroy people’s faith.

All Hail the Great Destroyer!!!!

I could take the christian tact and proclaim that I am just trying to save you from wasting away your life/money/time on superstitions, legend & lore...but I wouldn't do that. I believe you have the right to worship whatever mystical creatures you desire, as long as it is done in your church/home, doesn't effect my kids at public school, me in the public park/courthouse and I don't have to pay for it. Hey, some people obviously NEED this faith in fantasy to get through the day/week/life. I have heard people say that "If I found out tomorrow there was no god, I couldnt go on living" and I believe them.

You have done nothing but prove my point even further and shown what kind of waste of a person you are. I already told you I am not religious nor do I believe in God. You are just too stupid to figure that out.

[mpjh]

Glad to see that you have been enlightened.

[Gregrios]

I BELIEVE IN PERFECT FAITH IN THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST

[mpjh]

Good for you. Say, did you know that the rapture happened during WWII. You missed it.

[Gregrios]

Good for you. Say, did you know that the rapture happened during WWII. You missed it.

Not if I can find me a time machine.

[spaceghst44]

Glad to see that you have been enlightened.

I stated that fact in my very first post. Hence I have not been enlightened. I am agnostic. I do believe in a starting point of the universe and do not believe that everything just always was.

[Napoleon Ier]

In conclusion, the poll is probably a load of bollocks, but if it isn't, then it shows most Christians in the US think Jesus is still definitely necessary for Salvation, but reject this new-fangled Genevan sola fidei for good old time Catholic-style religion (huzzah huzzah and tea and biscuits all around).

[mpjh]

Glad to see that you have been enlightened.

I stated that fact in my very first post. Hence I have not been enlightened. I am agnostic. I do believe in a starting point of the universe and do not believe that everything just always was.

OK, glad to see you were enlightened before you started posting. congratulations.

[spaceghst44]

Glad to see that you have been enlightened.

I stated that fact in my very first post. Hence I have not been enlightened. I am agnostic. I do believe in a starting point of the universe and do not believe that everything just always was.

OK, glad to see you were enlightened before you started posting. congratulations.

Thanks. Wish you could be enlightened as well.

[mpjh]

Working on it, working on it.

[spaceghst44]

those who work hard get whats comming to them.


ENLIGHTENMENT!!!!!!!!

[mpjh]

Yeah, tell that to the workers at Chrysler.

[Backglass]

You have done nothing but prove my point even further and shown what kind of waste of a person you are.

Oh yes, you certainly showed me. Don't you mean anti-anti-waste of a person?

I already told you I am not religious nor do I believe in God.

Yet, you go to church every Sunday solely for the "moral teaching". Do you also bow your head with everyone else and pretend to pray to a god you don't believe in? Does everyone in the church know you think their god is bogus?

I believe you go, not for the "moral teachings" at all but for appearances sake. After all, what would your family and/or community say if you told them what you thought and stopped showing up?

You are just too stupid to figure that out.

Yeah, I am the stupid one here. Off to church now little man, wouldn't want people to talk...

[spaceghst44]

You have done nothing but prove my point even further and shown what kind of waste of a person you are.

Oh yes, you certainly showed me. Don't you mean anti-anti-waste of a person?

I already told you I am not religious nor do I believe in God.

Yet, you go to church every Sunday solely for the "moral teaching". Do you also bow your head with everyone else and pretend to pray to a god you don't believe in? Does everyone in the church know you think their god is bogus?

I believe you go, not for the "moral teachings" at all but for appearances sake. After all, what would your family and/or community say if you told them what you thought and stopped showing up?

You are just too stupid to figure that out.

Yeah, I am the stupid one here. Off to church now little man, wouldn't want people to talk...

You are so stupid. Listen to the crap comming out of your retarded mouth.

Nice assumptions. All they do is make an ASS out of YOU.

[MeDeFe]

You are so stupid. Listen to the crap comming out of your retarded mouth.

Nice assumptions. All they do is make an ASS out of YOU.

So... do you go to church although you don't believe in god?

[Backglass]

So... do you go to church although you don't believe in god?

No "assumptions" necessary. It's right here in this thread.

I am an agnostic, but I still go to church. I do not believe in the bible word for word, but I do believe in and enjoy the bibles moral teachings.

I already told you I am not religious nor do I believe in God.

Yup. I'm the ass.

This is like saying "I'm not gay, but I go to the local gay bar every week for the fine drink specials".