Mississippi challenges Roe VS Wade, loves God

[natty dread]

Okay here is my point, that you will refuse to believe because you don't want to. Rhetorical questions are the only things you guys will even read from someone opposing your view.

What is the difference between killing a 20 year old, mentally retarded person a 1 year old mentally retarded person, and the child in the womb that you know will be retarded? By your reasoning, No matter which one we kill, we will save them, or the person who will have trouble taking care of them, time, money and effort.

That sounds selfish to me. Because this person won't commit time and attention... lets kill him/her. Instead of making them live with their mistakes or finding the child a home lets just kill it. Forget about it. And move on. Forget the 42 million abortions that will happen this year and be thankful that my mother didn't choose to kill me because she made a "mistake". That to me sounds selfish.

Judging by the language you use, you don't really care about the disabled. You wouldn't be calling them "retarded" if you did. You're just using them as a rhetoric point in your argument...

Either way, no one is advocating killing disabled children. An early-term abortion is not "killing a child" since there is no child at that point, only a potential for a child. You are merely preventing that potential from being realized, the same way if you didn't have sex in the first place.

And the language in the rest of your post is even more telling: "Instead of making them live with their mistakes" just reads like "let's punish those sluts for having sex". You don't want someone to be able to have sex without "consequences", probably because you have this notion of sex as something that should be ashamed of...

[Swimmerdude99]

Okay here is my point, that you will refuse to believe because you don't want to. Rhetorical questions are the only things you guys will even read from someone opposing your view.

What is the difference between killing a 20 year old, mentally retarded person a 1 year old mentally retarded person, and the child in the womb that you know will be retarded? By your reasoning, No matter which one we kill, we will save them, or the person who will have trouble taking care of them, time, money and effort.

That sounds selfish to me. Because this person won't commit time and attention... lets kill him/her. Instead of making them live with their mistakes or finding the child a home lets just kill it. Forget about it. And move on. Forget the 42 million abortions that will happen this year and be thankful that my mother didn't choose to kill me because she made a "mistake". That to me sounds selfish.

Judging by the language you use, you don't really care about the disabled. You wouldn't be calling them "retarded" if you did. You're just using them as a rhetoric point in your argument...

Either way, no one is advocating killing disabled children. An early-term abortion is not "killing a child" since there is no child at that point, only a potential for a child. You are merely preventing that potential from being realized, the same way if you didn't have sex in the first place.

And the language in the rest of your post is even more telling: "Instead of making them live with their mistakes" just reads like "let's punish those sluts for having sex". You don't want someone to be able to have sex without "consequences", probably because you have this notion of sex as something that should be ashamed of...

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

[BigBallinStalin]

I abhore anyone who would abort because they found out their child has Downs, for example.

And who are you to say if another couple is able to care for a child with disabilities? Not everyone has the wealth, or the emotional strength, to deal with it.

I'd think it'd be better for the pregnancy to be aborted at an early stage rather than bringing a disabled child in the world, and then not being able to properly care for it.

The ultimate answer is that society must decide.

What do you mean by "society"? Are you talking about the aggregation of 300 million individuals? Or are you only talking about the each individual?

The aggregate. Or maybe something in between.
Individuals decide to do incredibly heneious things. At the same time, there are few things that 300 million people can agree upon fully. When they do agree, it tends to be something pretty important.

So how do 300 million people decide on such a divided issue? Oppression of majority rule?

[BigBallinStalin]

Okay here is my point, that you will refuse to believe because you don't want to. Rhetorical questions are the only things you guys will even read from someone opposing your view.

What is the difference between killing a 20 year old, mentally retarded person a 1 year old mentally retarded person, and the child in the womb that you know will be retarded? By your reasoning, No matter which one we kill, we will save them, or the person who will have trouble taking care of them, time, money and effort.

That sounds selfish to me. Because this person won't commit time and attention... lets kill him/her. Instead of making them live with their mistakes or finding the child a home lets just kill it. Forget about it. And move on. Forget the 42 million abortions that will happen this year and be thankful that my mother didn't choose to kill me because she made a "mistake". That to me sounds selfish.

Judging by the language you use, you don't really care about the disabled. You wouldn't be calling them "retarded" if you did. You're just using them as a rhetoric point in your argument...

Either way, no one is advocating killing disabled children. An early-term abortion is not "killing a child" since there is no child at that point, only a potential for a child. You are merely preventing that potential from being realized, the same way if you didn't have sex in the first place.

And the language in the rest of your post is even more telling: "Instead of making them live with their mistakes" just reads like "let's punish those sluts for having sex". You don't want someone to be able to have sex without "consequences", probably because you have this notion of sex as something that should be ashamed of...

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Still, the fetus isn't the same as a 20 year old mentally handicapped person.

Besides, you're overlooking the choice that was already made. Parents of the 20 year old already chose to have him. Natty is discussing the choice to make when the "20 year old" is a fetus. The situation isn't similar because of the separation in time.

[PLAYER57832]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children.

Actually both the word retarded AND "handicapped" are considered rather vulgar today.

Okay here is my point, that you will refuse to believe because you don't want to. Rhetorical questions are the only things you guys will even read from someone opposing your view.

What is the difference between killing a 20 year old, mentally retarded person a 1 year old mentally retarded person, and the child in the womb that you know will be retarded? By your reasoning, No matter which one we kill, we will save them, or the person who will have trouble taking care of them, time, money and effort.

My reasoning would not kill either.

But, I believe there is enough of a moral grey area that the government has no business dictating people's choices, made in good conscience.

That sounds selfish to me. Because this person won't commit time and attention... lets kill him/her. Instead of making them live with their mistakes or finding the child a home lets just kill it. Forget about it. And move on. Forget the 42 million abortions that will happen this year and be thankful that my mother didn't choose to kill me because she made a "mistake". That to me sounds selfish.

No.
I believe the humans have interceded already in human development, in reproduction, etc. Many people now live who would have died even a few years ago. I am not a Christian Scientist. I do believe in medical science, but it comes with a payment, a negative side. That side is that if we are going to decide to continue life that would not have continued, we also have to consider when its time to say "no".. this is going too far. This child, God just did not intend to live, no matter how much medical science we wish to use to intervene.

To insist that because we have the ability to keep children who will never do more than breath..a nd that only with assistance, alive is a kind of arrogance. It is not celebrating life, it is distorting it.

At what point do we draw the line? That IS where there is a legitimate debate. Personally, I put the line at the point of pain, extremes. However, the real point is it is something that must be decided individually, after consideration. You want the government to step in. You feel you have the right, without knowing anything about the various situations or morals involved to just tell people "you cannot do this". You do NOT know what it is to raise a highly disabled child. I don't claim to, but I have some glimpses when I see relatives and neighbors doing so.

There truly does come a point at which life just is not life. And certainly, it is much, much easier to take a potential child.. one you know might well be lost to miscarriage or who might suffer severe trauma and be even further injured.. than to stop raising a child who you have born.

[natty dread]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

[isaiah40]

http://www.180movie.com/

[Swimmerdude99]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

You made a personal attack, why don't you stay on topic. Play by your own rules if you expect others to do something.

[mviola]

I hear the parents of developmentally disabled children like to hear that their children are being called retarded. Good luck with holding down a job.

[Army of GOD]

The word "short" is offensive and if anyone uses it ever again I'll sue your ass

EDIT: Shit, I said it. I guess it'll be a long day in court for me against myself.

[BigBallinStalin]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

You made a personal attack, why don't you stay on topic. Play by your own rules if you expect others to do something.

You two are too cute. swimmerdude's analogy doesn't hold up as I already have shown here:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3449878

[Army of GOD]

http://www.180movie.com/

I'm sorry. I don't know what the documentary is about or what it's for, but I cannot take a video seriously if they try to pretend as if people don't know who Hitler is. I'm pretty sure my 4 month old cat knows who Hitler is.

[Army of GOD]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

You made a personal attack, why don't you stay on topic. Play by your own rules if you expect others to do something.

You two are too cute. swimmerdude's analogy doesn't hold up as I already have shown here:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3449878

You haven't "shown" it. You just said "they're not the same".

Why aren't they the same?

[BigBallinStalin]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

You made a personal attack, why don't you stay on topic. Play by your own rules if you expect others to do something.

You two are too cute. swimmerdude's analogy doesn't hold up as I already have shown here:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3449878

You haven't "shown" it. You just said "they're not the same".

Why aren't they the same?

The issue is one of choice during a certain time. It doesn't apply to decisions which were already made.


natty_dread is discussing the decision to be made at the time during which the fetus exists.

Natty isn't discussing a situation involving a 20-year mentally handicapped person because the parents of the 20-year old have already decided to keep their child. Their decision was already made 20 years ago. swimmer's scenario doesn't apply to natty's argument because of the difference in time and that the decision has already been made.


Essentially, swimmerdude is saying "20-year handicap = fetus." Natty isn't saying that.

[Army of GOD]

swimmer is talking about killing the 20 year old, which, in his mind, is congruent to aborting a fetus that is known to have the same disability. What if, after 20 years, the parents, fully knowing that the 20 year old will need his parents' assitance his entire life, decided to kill him (assume there's no legal implications)? How is that different than aborting a fetus?

Also, the main difference in thinking is that those who argue for abortions define a fetus as a "potential child" while those who are against abortions think the child itself is in existence right at conception. At what point does a "potential child" become a "child"?

[john9blue]

http://www.180movie.com/

I'm sorry. I don't know what the documentary is about or what it's for, but I cannot take a video seriously if they try to pretend as if people don't know who Hitler is. I'm pretty sure my 4 month old cat knows who Hitler is.

it's an anti-abortion video which used the "ask 200 people a question and edit out the 90% that answered correctly" tactic

kind of like this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

I directly supervise developmentally disabled adults in vocational situations... that is, the company I work for contracts with local businesses and has disabled adults participate in whatever job they need, all of whom have varying degrees of mental retardation, with the ultimate goal of teaching these indivuals job skills. I work with these individuals every day. The only people who find the term "retarded" offensive are the parents or over-sensitive people. Some of them (disabled) use the term themselves to describe something. It's a valid medical term.

-TG

[isaiah40]

http://www.180movie.com/

I'm sorry. I don't know what the documentary is about or what it's for, but I cannot take a video seriously if they try to pretend as if people don't know who Hitler is. I'm pretty sure my 4 month old cat knows who Hitler is.

it's an anti-abortion video which used the "ask 200 people a question and edit out the 90% that answered correctly" tactic

kind of like this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Kind of like what the media does to get their point across. Did you watch the video or just skim through it?

[john9blue]

http://www.180movie.com/

I'm sorry. I don't know what the documentary is about or what it's for, but I cannot take a video seriously if they try to pretend as if people don't know who Hitler is. I'm pretty sure my 4 month old cat knows who Hitler is.

it's an anti-abortion video which used the "ask 200 people a question and edit out the 90% that answered correctly" tactic

kind of like this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Kind of like what the media does to get their point across. Did you watch the video or just skim through it?

i watched the first 15 minutes then skimmed through the rest. it was somewhat repetitive, although it think it would provide food for thought for those who support abortion rights (i.e. not me)

[Army of GOD]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

I directly supervise developmentally disabled adults in vocational situations... that is, the company I work for contracts with local businesses and has disabled adults participate in whatever job they need, all of whom have varying degrees of mental retardation, with the ultimate goal of teaching these indivuals job skills. I work with these individuals every day. The only people who find the term "retarded" offensive are the parents or over-sensitive people. Some of them (disabled) use the term themselves to describe something. It's a valid medical term.

-TG

YOU HAVE JUST OFFENDED ME FOR THE LAST TIME

Anyway, I bet a lot of people don't know its etymology or root. Thankfully, I was in concert band and had a few laughs in 7th grade when the term "ritardando" was introduced.

[The Fire Knight]

http://www.180movie.com/

Thanks for that. It was powerful.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

I directly supervise developmentally disabled adults in vocational situations... that is, the company I work for contracts with local businesses and has disabled adults participate in whatever job they need, all of whom have varying degrees of mental retardation, with the ultimate goal of teaching these indivuals job skills. I work with these individuals every day. The only people who find the term "retarded" offensive are the parents or over-sensitive people. Some of them (disabled) use the term themselves to describe something. It's a valid medical term.

-TG

YOU HAVE JUST OFFENDED ME FOR THE LAST TIME

Anyway, I bet a lot of people don't know its etymology or root. Thankfully, I was in concert band and had a few laughs in 7th grade when the term "ritardando" was introduced.

Now now, I didn't say physical retardation, as in your special case, AoG.

And yes, I was in band, too. I AM IN YOUR HEAD.

-TG

[natty dread]

Retarded is not a vulgar word. I am going to college to probably study for eduction of mentally "HANDICAPPED" children. Why? partially to help this problem, be willing to take care of someone's kid for the day. I have a real passion for it, and currently teach lessons to handicapped kids on how to swim, so watch what you say.

Just thought I would comment, you'd rather fight though. So good'day sir, and don't accuse people of what you don't know.

Get the f*ck off your high horse... you didn't just "comment", you formulated a purposefully antagonizing rhetoric just to create conflict, so don't come crying to me now that I'm not playing nice.

Retarded is an offensive term in this context, and you should probably know it if you ever plan on interacting with disabled people. Just as a heads-up.

Either way, address the point at hand or shut up.

I directly supervise developmentally disabled adults in vocational situations... that is, the company I work for contracts with local businesses and has disabled adults participate in whatever job they need, all of whom have varying degrees of mental retardation, with the ultimate goal of teaching these indivuals job skills. I work with these individuals every day. The only people who find the term "retarded" offensive are the parents or over-sensitive people. Some of them (disabled) use the term themselves to describe something. It's a valid medical term.

-TG

And some coloured people call each other n****rs, that doesn't mean it's ok for you to use the word.

[PLAYER57832]

Also, the main difference in thinking is that those who argue for abortions define a fetus as a "potential child" while those who are against abortions think the child itself is in existence right at conception. At what point does a "potential child" become a "child"?

At birth.
However, at a point significantly prior to that, the potential is great enough that the fetus does deserve some protection, ergo restrictions on later term abortions.

Within the first trimester, some of the absolute best estimates only give the child a 70% chance of surving birth. NOT "surviving healthy and a long-lived life", but "surviving", including children who die almost immediately. More objective estimates put the realistic failure rate at over 50%, taking the many unreported miscarriages into account. Note, again that is JUST the death rate.

When you add in the fact that any pregnancy is risky to both the mother and the child in various ways, even today with our advanced medical science, then yes, there is very good reason to talk of a potential child as opposed to a born child.

BUT.. here is the other part. While I would in no way, shape or form advocate termination of developmentally disabled individuals, we, as a society are pretty hypocritical when it comes to end of life issues in all formats, not just abortion. I can remember when hospice care was not paid, was very limited. Even today, doctors are often prohibited from really sitting down with patients and talking honestly about their options. I mean, sure every doctor wants to cure. However, when you are facing someone with stage 4 cancer or an elderly patient with multiple issues... at some point suggesting the most aggressive treatment because it might possibly offer a cure just does not make sense. OR, at the least, it deserves to be put honestly to the person and family to think about.

For all fundamentalist/evangelical Christians talk about heaven and the glory of God after death, they also bend over backwards in what seems only like fear of death. Why is it that unfaithful people seem more willing and able to talk honestly about these issues?

[PLAYER57832]

I directly supervise developmentally disabled adults in vocational situations... that is, the company I work for contracts with local businesses and has disabled adults participate in whatever job they need, all of whom have varying degrees of mental retardation, with the ultimate goal of teaching these indivuals job skills. I work with these individuals every day. The only people who find the term "retarded" offensive are the parents or over-sensitive people. Some of them (disabled) use the term themselves to describe something. It's a valid medical term.

-TG

And some coloured people call each other n****rs, that doesn't mean it's ok for you to use the word.

What natty said, but also, just because it is OK in some regions still does not mean it is truly accepted universally. Also, you are dealing with adults. This change is pretty recent. Developmentally disabled individuals are, well, less likely to change their language than other groups. If you don't realize it IS considered offensive in the field, then you have not kept yourself much aware.