Conquer Club

AND I'M BEING MILDLY TANGENTIAL (because the video mentions atheists)

pimpdave wrote:AND I'M BEING MILDLY TANGENTIAL (because the video mentions atheists)

I'm still not sure I would even understand how atheists would got offended by Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanza. I imagine they sit there and say, "Look at those fools... having fun... being merry... enjoying the season. Just wait until they realize when they die that there is no God... MWAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Christmas is about religion?

thegreekdog wrote:

Aradhus wrote:I see hoofprints in the ground all the time.. Could it be the prints of a unicorn?? Boom, evidence unicorns exist!..

The Universe is evidence.. of the universe. You're making an illogical leap that one thing is somehow evidence of something else enitirely. And then you take that even further be claiming to know the actions of this other thing.

So you're agnostic.

What makes you say that? I don't really see how you got that from my post, but, am I agnostic? Yeh, in a room full of atheists. I'm an athiest in a room full of christians.

I don't think it matters, and I hate labels and such. What matters to me is what you do. Growing up having to study a bible 4 or 5 times a week pisses me off. Seeing other people wasting their time in that manner pisses me off too.

Snorri1234 wrote:Christmas is about religion?

Yeah, that's what I was kind of getting at in the posts to which greekdog responded.

I haven't been reading this thread. My eyes tend to glaze over when reading these threads, unless some really interesting and thoughtful posters show up, like luns101 or MaleAlphaThree.

But those guys have said their peace numerous times in other threads. Just take me as posting completely out of context and leave it at that.

Aradhus wrote:What makes you say that? I don't really see how you got that from my post, but, am I agnostic? Yeh, in a room full of atheists. I'm an athiest in a room full of christians.

So you're a rebel...

Snorri1234 wrote:There is no reason to assume God is behind how the universe works instead of simple laws of nature.

Actually that's exactly why... because the laws of the universe (such as conservation of energy and laws of causality) work fine for running our universe but can't explain how it began.

john9blue wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:There is no reason to assume God is behind how the universe works instead of simple laws of nature.

Actually that's exactly why... because the laws of the universe (such as conservation of energy and laws of causality) work fine for running our universe but can't explain how it began.

Neither does God.


Saying "a wizard did it" is not considered to be a viable position in logic or philosophy. Your position is fundamentally illogical.

*How did the universe start? Difficult question. ->THEREFORE GOD!!!* is one of the most ridiculous leaps of logic ever. You're not making the problem easier, you're making it more difficult. You're assigning traits to the cause that are unneccesary.

Logical arguments as to why the Cosmological argument is ridiculous:


1.) Why is the "First cause" exempt from having a cause? Give an explanation that explains why the First cause is exempt, explains away Hume's problem of induction and shows how Occam's Razor is not applicable in this situation.

2.) Why would the First Cause be God? Give a solid logical reason as to why one should attribute the common atributes of God (omniscience, omnibenevolence) to the First Cause.

3.) Given that we see complexity arising from non-complexity (heavier elements forming and all that), why should we even assume that the First Cause had any intelligence? Not simply that it was all-knowing like God, but any actual intelligence.

Snorri1234 wrote:

john9blue wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:There is no reason to assume God is behind how the universe works instead of simple laws of nature.

Actually that's exactly why... because the laws of the universe (such as conservation of energy and laws of causality) work fine for running our universe but can't explain how it began.

Neither does God.


Saying "a wizard did it" is not considered to be a viable position in logic or philosophy. Your position is fundamentally illogical.

*How did the universe start? Difficult question. ->THEREFORE GOD!!!* is one of the most ridiculous leaps of logic ever. You're not making the problem easier, you're making it more difficult. You're assigning traits to the cause that are unneccesary.

To be more specific, and nitpicky, saying "something happened" is one thing, to say anything beyond that (like what caused it, not to mention its capacity to think and damn and monitor our sex lives) is not backed up by any evidence.

Neoteny wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:Neither does God.


Saying "a wizard did it" is not considered to be a viable position in logic or philosophy. Your position is fundamentally illogical.

*How did the universe start? Difficult question. ->THEREFORE GOD!!!* is one of the most ridiculous leaps of logic ever. You're not making the problem easier, you're making it more difficult. You're assigning traits to the cause that are unneccesary.

To be more specific, and nitpicky, saying "something happened" is one thing, to say anything beyond that (like what caused it, not to mention its capacity to think and damn and monitor our sex lives) is not backed up by any evidence.

A good point. However, the first cause IS God. In my opinion this should be the first definition of God: "A being proposed as the creator of the universe". Then we start assigning traits such as "at least part of God must exist outside of the universe" and "God exists in at least 4 dimensions".

I didn't know online comics were considered "viable in logic and philosophy"...

john9blue wrote: A good point. However, the first cause IS God.

Why?

In my opinion this should be the first definition of God: "A being proposed as the creator of the universe".

okay, whatever. If you want to propose a being as creating the universe it's illogical and useless, but be my guest.

Then we start assigning traits such as "at least part of God must exist outside of the universe" and "God exists in at least 4 dimensions".

Yeah....

except you're not really assigning those traits. You're assigning traits like "omnipotence" and "omnipresence". Existing in 4 dimensions is no problem, I do it all the time, existing outside the universe is pointless because you must exist somewhere and there's no reason to not include that in the universe, but what you do is giving him bullshit-traits because you so desperately want to believe there's a kind old man with a beard sittin there maxin, relaxing all cool, shooting some b-ball outside of the school.

Aradhus wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Aradhus wrote:I see hoofprints in the ground all the time.. Could it be the prints of a unicorn?? Boom, evidence unicorns exist!..

The Universe is evidence.. of the universe. You're making an illogical leap that one thing is somehow evidence of something else enitirely. And then you take that even further be claiming to know the actions of this other thing.

So you're agnostic.

What makes you say that? I don't really see how you got that from my post, but, am I agnostic? Yeh, in a room full of atheists. I'm an athiest in a room full of christians.

I don't think it matters, and I hate labels and such. What matters to me is what you do. Growing up having to study a bible 4 or 5 times a week pisses me off. Seeing other people wasting their time in that manner pisses me off too.

I'm touched that you're concerned about me. That's very Christian of you.

I just had a serious case of deja vu.

dcc1220 wrote:Do you really expect to be swayed by any single argument that could be presented in a forum such as this?

If you are willing to take an in depth look at the very questions you pose, I would recommend a video series called "The Truth Project". It is a series of lectures given by Dr. Del Tackett. It is most definitely given from a Christian perspective, but I have known many non-christians who have watched the series and appreciated it.

In the end it doesn't matter what any one single person feels or believes. Truth is what it is, regardless to whether one group of people or another believe it.

The Truth Project is very good.

And I do agree with your comments on ...be swayed by any single argument that could be presented in a forum such as this. I have discussed many topics.
Eventually they turn into flames or get derailed. Sometimes there is very good discussion but with no face to face discussion, a lot is lost with just typing.

But they have been very insightful and helpful to me to better understand the other POV.

WM

thegreekdog wrote:

Aradhus wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Aradhus wrote:I see hoofprints in the ground all the time.. Could it be the prints of a unicorn?? Boom, evidence unicorns exist!..

The Universe is evidence.. of the universe. You're making an illogical leap that one thing is somehow evidence of something else enitirely. And then you take that even further be claiming to know the actions of this other thing.

So you're agnostic.

What makes you say that? I don't really see how you got that from my post, but, am I agnostic? Yeh, in a room full of atheists. I'm an athiest in a room full of christians.

I don't think it matters, and I hate labels and such. What matters to me is what you do. Growing up having to study a bible 4 or 5 times a week pisses me off. Seeing other people wasting their time in that manner pisses me off too.

I'm touched that you're concerned about me. That's very Christian of you.

Ok, I didn't write that very well. I grew up in a strictly religious family, where I had to study the bible 5 times a week. By about 9 years old I realised it was bull, but I had to endure it for another 7 years. The "you" referred to in the previous post is you in general, not you specifically TGD.

Caring about others and not wanting them to waste their time, isn't Christian. Sticking your nose in other people's business and telling them how to live, or there'll be consequences, that is Christian.

And if you(you specifically TGD) claim to be a Chistian, catholic, whatever denomination you are, I suspect deep down that you know. You know its not true, because you appear to be a smart guy. Stupid, smart, it doesn't matter, you will still lie to yourself.

WidowMakers wrote:

dcc1220 wrote:Do you really expect to be swayed by any single argument that could be presented in a forum such as this?

If you are willing to take an in depth look at the very questions you pose, I would recommend a video series called "The Truth Project". It is a series of lectures given by Dr. Del Tackett. It is most definitely given from a Christian perspective, but I have known many non-christians who have watched the series and appreciated it.

In the end it doesn't matter what any one single person feels or believes. Truth is what it is, regardless to whether one group of people or another believe it.

The Truth Project is very good.

WM

Hey, I'm not the only one who has seen it. My step-dad and I host Truth Projects. It's awesome having discussions after the end of each session. I put it in my signature and every once in awhile get a pm from those who are curious.

I usually ride my bike along the river in Taibei, and one day I just looked up and noticed a huge field of orange flowers. To my left, an older guy was casually strolling along a small path hidden among the knee-high flowers while 2 yellow butterflies fluttered around his head. Before me were three man-made paths: the one on the left was made of tightly fitted stepping stones, the middle one has quick turns with lampposts in the middle of each curve, and the one on the right branched further toward the river and further from the school, but it was the best paved.

It was only a matter of time before this thread slipped over to athiesm vs. theism. We've been arguing about health care and global warming for months now, it was bound to drift back here eventually.

Frigidus wrote:It was only a matter of time before this thread slipped over to athiesm vs. theism. We've been arguing about health care and global warming for months now, it was bound to drift back here eventually.

Ah, the memories of senselessly arguing back and forth about religion. Seems just like yesterday.

Indeed, Evolution vs. Creation is on page 9, and I don't even know what happened to Logic Dictates. I do not imagine this getting that long because most of us grow tired of repeating the same points over and over.

Aradhus wrote:If we were all Nazis would the world be better off..Is the point.

As you asking me if I believe that? Because it certainly brings up an interesting point...

Chao wrote:

Aradhus wrote:If we were all Nazis would the world be better off..Is the point.

As you asking me if I believe that? Because it certainly brings up an interesting point...

Well, at least things would be a bit more organized.

It is an impossible question to answer....if the world would be better off. The world is simply filled with so many religions, and so influences its history, and so many of its collective and individual decisions, that it is impossible to know what would have been if the idea of religion..or more precisely the idea of a creator was never born. Further, some religions are not based on a creator, but more focus on the force which is nature itself.

What undoubtedly would make for a better world, would be if people followed the actual teachings that every religion offers, which clearly and blatantly warn against the very activities that cause the most problems in the world, especially when those religions are sometimes the very cause of the conflict in the first place.

To have a religion profess though shalt not kill as one of its main ten commandments, and then go to war with another nation over boundaries trying to protect said commandment really is insane.

The basic teachings and ideologies of all religions really are derived from the most pure of morals and ethics. At their foundation is the basis of what it means to be human, as opposed to just animal, and it is those principles that need to be followed to make the world better. Unfortunately, along the way, humans are swayed by their own need for power, and have changed those principles, and practice them in their own ways, in order to cause the very problems they were originally created to prevent.

It is not religion per-se that causes problems in society, with or without religion they will exist. The people who use religion for bad, or misinterpret the teachings, would most likely do so no matter what religion they happened to be born into....and yes... for the most part, you are born into a religion. The great majority of people who believe on religion over another, simply were taught that religion from an early age, and continue to believe it is the correct religion till their death. There are many examples where this is not true, of course, but for the most part, you believe what you believe, because of where you were born, and who your parents were. Its great that many believe they were lucky enough to actually be born into the correct religion, with the true knowledge of God, and great that they will be happy till their dying days believing this. Further, it may very well make the world a better place having such people.....as long as they do not use their beliefs to cause harm or damage to others, using said beliefs as an excuse for doing so.

If everyone actually lived up to the ideals of their various religions...discounting perhaps tiny factions that may actually profess hate, etc...the world would undoubtedly be a better place. It would be a virtual heaven on earth. Unfortunately, man does not seem able or willing to come even close to those ideals, and instead decides to argue and fight over which ideals are more important, and even how to live up to those ideals, in an irony that is tragic....not to mention galactically stupid.

So, it is very possible that religion could make the world a better place, and that it is better off with it....especially if there is a higher power, that will reward such allegence for some reason.

It is also possible that if we did not believe in a higher power, but only the ideals and morals of most religions...ie towards the treatment of other people, that the world would be a better place...but its equally easy to argue that without the original fear of retribution, that in the early stages of humanity, there may have been even more killing, less civilization, and as a result a world that was far less better than the one we even have now.