Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:15 pm
by Symmetry
A response from the locals:
ARGENTINA has again combined sport and politics with a 90 second pre Olympic television advert showing an Argentine hockey player training in and around Stanley and claiming, "to compete on English soil, we train on Argentine soil."
Member of Falkland Islands Legislative Assembly Ian Hansen (left) responded today: "We were very disappointed this morning to see the advert from the Argentine Presidential Office, attempting to politicise the Olympics in service of their territorial ambitions. This video was filmed without the knowledge of the Falkland Islands authorities."
He added, "It is deeply sad to see Mr Zylberberg clambering over a war memorial, especially in this anniversary year. Sadly, this illustrates the disrespect the Argentine authorities have for our home and our people. Unsurprisingly, at no stage does the video feature any Falkland Islanders – a clear reflection of Argentina's policy, which is to pretend that the people of the Falkland Islands do not exist. It is time the world took note – we do exist, and as with all people we have rights, which the Argentine Government is trying to deny us. We are our own people, who through nine generations have lived and worked in these islands for nearly 200 years.
"We determine our own future, and we will not be bullied by the Argentine Government, neither by their attempts to undermine our economy, nor by their constant misrepresentation of the truth, nor by pieces of cheap and disrespectful propaganda such as this. It is hugely disappointing to see sport abused in this way, when it is so often seen as a vehicle for unity. It seems an act of desperation to sink to this."
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:21 pm
by saxitoxin
In other words:
500 Million People of La Raza wrote:
Angry British Imperialist Racist Military Occupation Forces wrote:
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:23 pm
by Symmetry
Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:26 pm
by saxitoxin
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say?
nope
Just like when the Italians went to "live" in Ethiopia or the Germans went to "live" in Poland ... they didn't get a say when it was time to leave and neither do the British when they went to "live" in Argentina.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:14 pm
by BigBallinStalin
saxitoxin wrote:In other words:
500 Million People of La Raza wrote:
Angry British Imperialist Racist Military Occupation Forces wrote:
I dunno, sax. He's looks kinda Asian.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:51 am
by GreecePwns
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:35 pm
by maxfaraday
GreecePwns wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
This could be a valid argument for the people moved there, but what about those who were born there?
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:30 pm
by saxitoxin
maxfaraday wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
This could be a valid argument for the people moved there, but what about those who were born there?
1. According to the "Falklands" own census, only 1,339 of their 3,000 inhabitants were born there. With per-capita housing of 0.38, that means 509 homes are inhabited by people born there.
The "self-determination" argument is, therefore, bunk. The UK has no problem forcibly evicting hundreds of people ... unless it needs them as props for an oil claim.
Jingoists like Symmetry don't have opinions that are consistent with rational reality - just ranting nationalism and a perception that white inhabitants must be protected from the immigration of "diegos."
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 2:06 pm
by nietzsche
What about Argentina's expropriation of Spanish YPF ??
It seems to me that the whole Europe is Argentina's bitch.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 2:16 pm
by saxitoxin
nietzsche wrote:What about Argentina's expropriation of Spanish YPF ??
It seems to me that the whole Europe is Argentina's bitch.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:01 pm
by aad0906
GreecePwns wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
when they moved there early in the 19th century, they had no idea there was any oil there.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:33 pm
by saxitoxin
aad0906 wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
when they moved there early in the 19th century, they had no idea there was any oil there.
saxitoxin wrote:According to the "Falklands" own census, only 1,339 of their 3,000 inhabitants were born there.
Since 1982 the UK has actively been working to import people to keep the local population from dying out, negating their specious "self-determination" argument.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:37 pm
by Dukasaur
aad0906 wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
when they moved there early in the 19th century, they had no idea there was any oil there.
You beat me to it.
More importantly, of course, when they moved there the islands were uninhabited. There has never been an indigenous people of any kind. Previous attempts by France and Spain to colonise the islands were unequivocal failures. The British are quite simply the only people to have lived there as anything but transient visitors.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:45 pm
by saxitoxin
Dukasaur wrote: The British are quite simply the only people to have lived there as anything but transient visitors.
Several of the Hebrides islands are uninhabited. By this logic they're fair game. Argentina or China could land a few hundred people on one of them tomorrow and that would then be their territory - no questions asked, no negotiation.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:33 pm
by GreecePwns
Whether or not they knew there was oil there, whether or not they are second generation or longer, they're not separate people (and this argument that they have lived there for generations and generations is suspicious, considering the statistic Saxi brought up).
There are definitely second and even third generation Turks in northern Cyprus, why does not one country recognize the TRNC as a state except Turkey?
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:04 pm
by BigBallinStalin
aad0906 wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
when they moved there early in the 19th century, they had no idea there was any oil there.
Even so, there's other valuable reasons for the UK's taking that land (e.g. another British owned coaling station for the Royal Fleet, increased capability to interfere in the affairs of South American countries--which garners benefits to the UK's allies, thus making/maintaining an alliance with the UK that much more valuable), and so on.
Now that there is oil there, the UK is fiercely holding onto its colony (or "territory" if that sounds nicer), while Argentina becomes increasingly interested in controlling that land.
Superficially, this issue is about freedom, liberty, and "self-determination." Nevertheless, beneath the political rhetoric, this issue is about state security, national interests, and expanding/maintaining a state's power projection.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:43 pm
by Symmetry
GreecePwns wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Do the people who live there not get a say? It seems only fair to post their views too.
The people of the so-called TRNC don't deserve a say in Cyprus' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Turks who moved (or were moved, I'm not sure which) there in order to prevent the annexation of Cyprus to Greece for various reasons (namely, they want to compete with Greece over Aegean trade).
The people of the so-called Falklands don't deserve a say in the Malvinas' affairs because they are not a separate people, no matter what they say. They are Brits who moved there in order to prevent the annexation of the Malvinas to Argentina for various reasons (namely, they want the oil the Malvinas contain).
I've got a fair amount of sympathy for the Cypriot situation- I have close friends who are Greek Cypriot and close friends who are Turkish Cypriot. Both seem more akin to one another than Turkish or Greek non-Cypriots. In other words, I see a Cypriot identity, common to both sides. That said, I have much more sympathy with the Greek side of the argument, and Turkish intransigence on the issue is frustrating.
I'd like to see both sides reconcile and share the Cypriot identity.
With the Falklands, I think there's a different story at play. Perhaps one that you might be familiar with given the Cypriot situation. A group of islanders, living peacefully, are invaded by a foreign military junta. In this case of course, we're talking about the Falkland Islanders being invaded by an Argentinian military junta, rather than Cyprus being annexed by the military junta of Turkey at the time.
I would also like to see a normalisation of relations between the Falklands and Argentina, but desecrating war memorials and ignoring the democratic wishes of the people who live there is not the way to go. You seem to have learned the wrong lessons from Cyprus, and would like to see the situation repeated in the Falklands.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:59 pm
by saxitoxin
It's a waiting game.
The most modest military force could mount an operation over 200 miles of calm sea. It requires massive resources to stage an operation over 8,000 Trans-Atlantic miles.
Britain has cut her navy from 81 surface combatants in 1982 to 19 today. Labour has pledged to cut further and they'll likely win the next election. Malvinas currently is only protected by 4 aircraft. Four! Four aircraft - not enough for a 24/hour watch ... the pilots have 7 minutes to get dressed, get in their aircraft and launch from the moment Mount Pleasant paints FAA incoming fighters. At minute 8 the Eurofighters are smashed on the runways, and then there are just 400 light infantry to beat back the entire Argentine army and no ships in Britain to mount a relief like in '82.
By hook or by crook Malvinas will be reunited with Argentina. The only question Britain needs to answer is: (a) a negotiated settlement with lavish compensation that makes all the islanders millionaires today, or, (b) this 5 years from now when her military has been cut to the bone -
Anyone who thinks there's another option is deluding themselves with fantasy. Hope is not a strategy.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:16 pm
by saxitoxin
Symmetry wrote:With the Falklands, I think there's a different story at play. Perhaps one that you might be familiar with given the Cypriot situation. A group of islanders, living peacefully, are invaded by a foreign military junta.
Symmetry conveniently forgot that Greece, in '74, was also run by a military junta. Greece isn't today. Neither is Argentina.
When the UK agrees to let all the people in the Midlands whose homes they plan to forcibly demolish and evict this year to build the HS2 rail line vote on whether they want their homes demolished, then I'll agree to the "self-determination" argument and that the "Falklanders" should vote on their status. Until then, it's another case what's good for the goose is too good for the gander ... if, in this case, the gander is a bunch of "dirty diegos" (as the Britishers refer to them).
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:21 pm
by Symmetry
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:With the Falklands, I think there's a different story at play. Perhaps one that you might be familiar with given the Cypriot situation. A group of islanders, living peacefully, are invaded by a foreign military junta.
Symmetry conveniently forgot that Greece, in '74, was also run by a military junta. Greece isn't today. Neither is Argentina.
When the UK agrees to let all the people in the Midlands whose homes they plan to forcibly demolish and evict this year to build the HS2 rail line vote on whether they want their homes demolished, then I'll agree to the "self-determination" argument. Until then, it's another case what's good for the goose is too good for the gander.
I can read your quotes when your replying to my quotes dude, no need to play to an invisible audience.
If you have an issue with the governance of Cyprus by Greece, take it up with GreecePwns. My sympathies rest with the islanders.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:58 pm
by saxitoxin
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:With the Falklands, I think there's a different story at play. Perhaps one that you might be familiar with given the Cypriot situation. A group of islanders, living peacefully, are invaded by a foreign military junta.
Symmetry conveniently forgot that Greece, in '74, was also run by a military junta. Greece isn't today. Neither is Argentina.
When the UK agrees to let all the people in the Midlands whose homes they plan to forcibly demolish and evict this year to build the HS2 rail line vote on whether they want their homes demolished, then I'll agree to the "self-determination" argument. Until then, it's another case what's good for the goose is too good for the gander.
I can read your quotes when your replying to my quotes dude, no need to play to an invisible audience.
If you have an issue with the governance of Cyprus by Greece, take it up with GreecePwns. My sympathies rest with the islanders.
And I'm sure the kelpers will appreciate your sympathetic notes five years hence when Argentine paratroopers are dropping on Stanley after the British garrison has been depleted to a 10-piece brass band and a retired Major-General with an outrageous hat.
"Oh woe unto us for the chance we could have had to all be millionaires ... now all we get is an one-way ticket on a crowded refugee ship!" shall come their cries of misfortune, carried across the choppy swells of the South Atlantic. "Woe for our misfortunes - we, miserable lot! But, at least Symmetry sends his sympathy!"
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:04 pm
by Symmetry
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:With the Falklands, I think there's a different story at play. Perhaps one that you might be familiar with given the Cypriot situation. A group of islanders, living peacefully, are invaded by a foreign military junta.
Symmetry conveniently forgot that Greece, in '74, was also run by a military junta. Greece isn't today. Neither is Argentina.
When the UK agrees to let all the people in the Midlands whose homes they plan to forcibly demolish and evict this year to build the HS2 rail line vote on whether they want their homes demolished, then I'll agree to the "self-determination" argument. Until then, it's another case what's good for the goose is too good for the gander.
I can read your quotes when your replying to my quotes dude, no need to play to an invisible audience.
If you have an issue with the governance of Cyprus by Greece, take it up with GreecePwns. My sympathies rest with the islanders.
Do the Midlanders also get your sympathy? Should the British government be allowed to forcibly evict more people from their homes in the Midlands than live in the entire Malvinas Islands? What about their rights to "self-determination?" Why the double-standard (other than the Midlanders aren't needed as legal props for an oil claim to be drilled by the world's biggest polluter - BP)?
I live in the midlands. Can I sympathise with myself? Might seem a little narcissistic.
Personally, I think the high speed rail line is ridiculous, and a waste of money. The British railway system has been in a state of decay since we believed the folks who said that free markets would be the solution.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:05 pm
by saxitoxin
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:With the Falklands, I think there's a different story at play. Perhaps one that you might be familiar with given the Cypriot situation. A group of islanders, living peacefully, are invaded by a foreign military junta.
Symmetry conveniently forgot that Greece, in '74, was also run by a military junta. Greece isn't today. Neither is Argentina.
When the UK agrees to let all the people in the Midlands whose homes they plan to forcibly demolish and evict this year to build the HS2 rail line vote on whether they want their homes demolished, then I'll agree to the "self-determination" argument. Until then, it's another case what's good for the goose is too good for the gander.
I can read your quotes when your replying to my quotes dude, no need to play to an invisible audience.
If you have an issue with the governance of Cyprus by Greece, take it up with GreecePwns. My sympathies rest with the islanders.
Do the Midlanders also get your sympathy? Should the British government be allowed to forcibly evict more people from their homes in the Midlands than live in the entire Malvinas Islands? What about their rights to "self-determination?" Why the double-standard (other than the Midlanders aren't needed as legal props for an oil claim to be drilled by the world's biggest polluter - BP)?
I live in the midlands. Can I sympathise with myself? Might seem a little narcissistic.
Personally, I think the high speed rail line is ridiculous, and a waste of money. The British railway system has been in a state of decay since we believed the folks who said that free markets would be the solution.
This is not a thread about railroads.
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:08 pm
by Symmetry
Then I'm baffled, why bring up the comparison at all? If it's not about railroads, why ask me to compare the Falkland Islands to building a railroad?
Clearly this thread has gone off topic for both of us.
Why do you think that Imperialist Argentina is not extending its talons once more?
Re: Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled tal
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:16 pm
by saxitoxin
Symmetry wrote:Then I'm baffled, why bring up the comparison at all? If it's not about railroads, why ask me to compare the Falkland Islands to building a railroad?
It's a valid comparison inasmuch as it exposes the hypocrisy of the Britisher regime's protestations of "self determination" when they annually and happily use force to evict more people than live in all the Malvinas with no second thought about "self determination", but babbling on about the cost effectiveness of it is off-topic and evasive.
