Logic dictates that there is a God!

[Backglass]

Just so you know, your line of reasoning is the one the Muslims use to demonstrate you can only study the Qur'an in the original Arbic.

Well..IF your god is perfect and without question...why didn't he have the bible written down in multiple languages to avoid these errors? He already knew this was going to happen, right? Seems to me that your god didn't WANT translations, or he would have had them all written down at the time (even if the language didn't exist yet, HE knows it...right?).

Or there's a mystical Cheese Oracle that created all of society and then once he was done he turned into the Moon.

And gave us "Stinky Cheese Face Day!"

[got tonkaed]

I think one of my qualms about the majority of believers (at least that i have come across i dont want to make too sweeping of a generalization here) who believe in a more literal interpreation of Revelations is that the tend to be much less focused on some of the more social elements of the gospel. As a nonbeliever, i would certainly be less troubled with someone who believed in a just God as long as they made more of an effort to follow some of the very positive teachings that are within the gospels that deal with social relations.

However, as is reflected by much of American culturized Christianity, there is less observance of tending to the least among us and more toward the saving of souls. Now i understand why a rapture oriented Christian wants individuals to believe in their version of the just God, but i would also expect that as thinking somewhat rational human beings, they would realize each individual has to make their own choices and hope that the evidence speaks for itself.

I read an article today that revealed some interesting information about US Christians or at least the so called Christian nation that is the US. Though we do give a large amount of money to charity, it is the smallest amount proportionally to our economy in the developed world. Likewise, aid to developing nations, who one could certainly see as people among us who do need in a fashion that Jesus taught to reach out toward is only about 11 cents per capita, which i dont need to tell anyone, isnt very high and this is after you factor in privatly funded donations as well.

I think many nonbelievers have a difficulty reconciling an argument made by a salvation seeking Christian when there is so little done in general to live a lifestyle that helps those in need like Jesus taught and instead is replaced with a lifestyle that calls for salvation or damnation, which seems to be outside of the realm of human capacity as God is supposedly the final judge, not you or i.

[Guiscard]

The Book of Revelation was written so that Paul could disguise is message and because coming from his time he would not know how to describe what he was seeing... (What Paul describes as "giant locusts" could be attack helicopters but he used something familiar to him....he had never seen a helicopter before).

Thats the response I thought I would get. It is a disguised messgae. What is literally written does not neccessarily mean the literal truth about what will happen.

If we can use analagy to describe events at the end of times, why can you not accept that the creation stories given in gensis can be just as symbolic and analogical. Again, what is written does not neccassarily mean the literal truth about what happened - just an attempt to explain it.

Is it viable to describe some parts of the Bible as symbolic but disregard other sections which are equally symbolic to those with any kind of openness to applying what we know about the world today to the Bible?

Who decides what is a disguised or symbolic message and what isn't?

[MR. Nate]

Well..IF your god is perfect and without question...why didn't he have the bible written down in multiple languages to avoid these errors? He already knew this was going to happen, right? Seems to me that your god didn't WANT translations, or he would have had them all written down at the time (even if the language didn't exist yet, HE knows it...right?).

Or perhaps HE wanted every generation of believers to understand that they have to apply His word in their context. He allows us to learn it instead of memorizing it. The process of understanding the Bible begins with what it literally says, then figure out what that meant to the people that it was originally intended for, then apply that principle to your life.

Keep in mind that there is the promise of the Holy Spirit. God gives Christ-followers a guide to help them understand what is written.

[Backglass]

The Book of Revelation was written so that Paul could disguise is message and because coming from his time he would not know how to describe what he was seeing... (What Paul describes as "giant locusts" could be attack helicopters but he used something familiar to him....he had never seen a helicopter before). Yes, I believe it is literal. That there will be a literal 7 year tribulation, a literal antichrist, a literal Armageddon and a literal return to Earth by Christ.

Wait a second...if it was all written as a "disguise", how can YOU pick and choose what is literal? Maybe "anti-christ" was code for "non-believer" and "armageddon" for a clash of neighboring cities?

[AlgyTaylor]

Jay - do you believe every story that someone tells you?

What makes the Bible different from another story book? Nothing. Anyone can write in the front page "This is the word of Dog" or something, that doesn't mean that Dog actually wrote it -- just that the person who wrote the book first also wrote that it's Dog's work.

[MR. Nate]

Who decides what is a disguised or symbolic message and what isn't?

Generally, the reason that Genesis is defended as literal is because it reads that way. Revelation is a vision, the waking dream of the Apostle John, and visions tend to be allegorical or symbolic. When you read Genesis, it is presented as a record of facts, not as a parable, allegory or vision. It's called the plain reading of the text.

[Backglass]

The process of understanding the Bible begins with what it literally says, then figure out what that meant to the people that it was originally intended for, then apply that principle to your life.

How can you be so sure? If your god is so perfect and wise, why would he want mere mortals interpreting things thousands of years later, mostly likely in a way that was not intended? Why is there any "figuring out" if the words are literally the words of a god?

Unless of course...they aren't the words of a god.

[MR. Nate]

Keep in mind that there is the promise of the Holy Spirit. God gives Christ-followers a guide to help them understand what is written.

[got tonkaed]

Nate....is the problem of the holy spirit somewhat problematic, in the sense that there shouldnt be tremendous variation as to interpretation if the same spirit from/as God is helping the reader interpret. Of course they may be some variation to reflect some social dynamic, but the more that one believes God remains fairly constant, as Jay may, one would assume that if the holy spirit is consistent as God, why is there so much variation in interpretation....does the gift of a holy spirit the necesarily equate that one should think those who are interpreting God's message differently are therefore in the wrong? after all who would believe that God was leading them astray in reading the bible?

[MR. Nate]

does the gift of a holy spirit the necesarily equate that one should think those who are interpreting God's message differently are therefore in the wrong? after all who would believe that God was leading them astray in reading the bible?

In the essentials, such as the deity of Christ, his sacrifice for sin, the charachter or God, there is less variance than you may think. A lot of the other stuff is secondary, and seems less important than living your life in such a way that it glorifies God. Are they wrong? Maybe. Am I wrong? Probably. I don't claim to have a stranglehold on truth. I see truth in the heart of the Christianity, and so I try to understand that, and live my life ina way that is consistant with that. The problem is, my (and everyone elses's) presuppositions, both personal and cultural, cloud my viewpoint.

[Backglass]

Hmm...well it seems to me that a perfect, magical, all knowing, all-seeing god would write perfect text that could be instantly understandable and would not need any interpretation.

Why is this perfect god writing imperfect text?

I don't claim to have a stranglehold on truth.

No...that would be jay

[Guiscard]

Hmm...well it seems to me that a perfect, magical, all knowing, all-seeing god would write perfect text that could be instantly understandable and would not need any interpretation.

Why is this perfect god writing imperfect text?

Especially when the misinterpretation of that text can lead to such horrendous crimes as the crusades, persecution of homosexuals, slavery etc. etc.

All of which have been justified in the name of the Bible.

Surely an omnibenevolent God would not allow this.

[got tonkaed]

i would actually disagree with you in part about the less variation, simply because there is such a wide spectrum of denomonations that make up Christianity but i would probably agree within simiar denomonations there is most likely much less variation.

However as an example of variation i would cite that post i made a few pages back about a wide difference in social attitude between conservative christianity and liberal christianity as i do contend they take very different views about how to glorify God.

I dont think even most atheists would claim that Christianity doesnt have anything to offer in the way of truth, i would think that would be rather shortsighted.

[Guiscard]

I dont think even most atheists would claim that Christianity doesnt have anything to offer in the way of truth,

What do you mean by truth in this context?

[max is gr8]

If there is a god. Why is there suffering we don't cause jay

[got tonkaed]

merely that it has some elements which could help a human live a satisifying existence in a way that could also benefit other people....Hence i believe mostly that a lot of the helping out the needy and the golden rule was a really good move by Jesus, but dont believe in a variety of other elements, the big one being the divnity of Jesus or an existence of a God.


Subjective statement i know about truth, probably doesnt hold up under a very strong inquiry, but id like to think truth regarding human behavior would hopefully entail a positive for both the indivdual and the collective, and some elements of Christianity seem to attempt this.

[Backglass]

If there is a god. Why is there suffering we don't cause jay

Because he loves you.

According to jay, if would just believe you could get up from that chair and jog around the block.

[MR. Nate]

The word IS perfect, the people reading it are not. We're all sinners, some have been redeemed, and some care to live like it. Evil people justifying their evil with the Word of God is not the fault of the Word, it's the fault of the evil people.

You want something that caters to you and your particular demands. You certainly are closed minded when it comes to the best way for God to communicate to .

As for the best way to glorify God, don't you think he can be glorified in more than one way?

[Guiscard]

merely that it has some elements which could help a human live a satisifying existence in a way that could also benefit other people....Hence i believe mostly that a lot of the helping out the needy and the golden rule was a really good move by Jesus, but dont believe in a variety of other elements, the big one being the divnity of Jesus or an existence of a God.

I very much agree, although I would see it as a total lie anyway. Mankind can take some very good messages from the Bible, but it is important to note that they are not values peculiar to religion, and can be aspired to without even having heard of the Bible. Unfortunately, religion has also brought with it a darker side which, at least to me, sort of overrides the moral influence. In this day and age it does much more harm than good.

[got tonkaed]

Nate, i think any nonbeliever should be allowed to try and interpret biblical teaching in a way that caters to them, after all if people dont believe in the God that authored the book any teaching out of the book that an individual is looking to acquire should meet the needs of the individual who is seeking some bit of helpful knowledge.


Certainly there is more than one way to glorify God, but one wonders considering the teachings about not picking specs out of our brothers eyes while there is a spec in our own....why we believe all methods of edification, especially ones which condemn individuals are seen as equal in the sight of God as those which do not condemn but rather help to raise up others?

[Backglass]

The word IS perfect, the people reading it are not. We're all sinners, some have been redeemed, and some care to live like it. Evil people justifying their evil with the Word of God is not the fault of the Word, it's the fault of the evil people.

Why wouldn't a perfect god have foreseen this (knowing and seeing all) and prevented his word from being bastardized? This is the book that is going to save all mankind...isn't that kinda important? Doesn't he WANT everyone saved? Wouldn't he do everything in his infinite power to make sure that his message isn't altered and twisted? He IS capable of this isn't he?

Besides...if this were really a gods words, why the book? Why the errors? Why the translations and chances for mistakes? Why not just a giant face in the sky and speak to everyone at once. THAT is what a god would do. Not come to people in dreams and magical bushes.

You want something that caters to you and your particular demands. You certainly are closed minded when it comes to the best way for God to communicate to.

Oh yes, I am the closed minded one here.

I am here any time any of the hundreds of gods believed in around the world wish to make themselves known. But no dreams, images in the grilled cheese or TV preachers please.

[got tonkaed]

Guis.... i definity agree with your points. Certainly the "truths" that im refering to are more universal in nature and can and should be attempted to be found and discerned from a mulititude of sources not merely the bible alone. However since its here, we might as well try to use the parts of it that we can come together and find as valuable, along with other sources, though at the same time i cant entirely disagree with your contention that disavowing utlity to the text might force people to do their wrongdoings with a different legitmator, as christianity has done its far share of legitmating of some not nice stuff.


as an aside have you read the works by Sam Harris?

[Guiscard]

as an aside have you read the works by Sam Harris?

As in 'the end of faith'? Only a chapter for a philosophy course a couple years ago. Can't remember much about it really.

[max is gr8]

If there is a god. Why is there suffering we don't cause jay

Because he loves you.

According to jay, if would just believe you could get up from that chair and jog around the block.

If god loved me he'ld make a HD plasma TV in my bedroom and give me all the tv chanels in the world