What is your opinion on the foundy?

[captainwalrus]

I agree. If the majority of people think your map sucks, your map probably is probably not as good as you think it is. That isn't to say that you personally will never be a good map maker, you just need to try again. Although I haven't tried making a CC map in a while, when I had my few attempts in foundry I wish they had gotten riped on more, instead of just ignored I would have wasted a lot less time, and my glorious return could have already happened.

[porkenbeans]

I agree. If the majority of people think your map sucks, your map probably is probably not as good as you think it is. That isn't to say that you personally will never be a good map maker, you just need to try again. Although I haven't tried making a CC map in a while, when I had my few attempts in foundry I wish they had gotten riped on more, instead of just ignored I would have wasted a lot less time, and my glorious return could have already happened.

The rough draft stage, is NOT the time to make any determinations, about whether, it is a worthy project or not. Take a look at Siege. The first rough draft, (and it's called that for a good reason), looks like an 8th. grader whipped it out during recess.
It IS however, a time to offer your thoughts, on how it might be improved. Some people around here do not really understand the definition of "CONstructive" criticism. It just may be that the project is doomed to fail, but to shoot it down before it has had the chance to improve, is very shortsighted. And, It does NOT speak well of the Foundry, when they engage in this kind of foolish, and "DEstructive" protocol.

It is really quite simple. Just offer some friendly and constructive advice, (if you have any). And then let the map maker choose for himself, how he will proceed. It IS his project, and if he is able to do something good with the suggestions, or not, well, it's his baby to sink or swim.

@ WM,
Your American Idol analogy sounds good, but I am afraid it falls way short, when you Annalise it.

First and most importantly, the contestants are NOT the ones that are doing the judging.

Second, as I explained above, the first draft stage, is NOT the time to render any kind of judgment, on if it is worthy or not.

I known that you can understand exactly what I am talking about. You have no problem using the proper attitude and etiquette when it comes to the Foundry clique's members. I have not known you to be like some of the other buttheads in THE clique, that attack outsiders with the ferociousness a pit bulls. But for you to say that this kind of thing does NOT go on, is either a case of ignorance, or being disingenuous.

[captainwalrus]

"The foundry clique?" Really? Is that what you think the oldschool foundry guys are? A group of bitchy teenage girls who won't let you hang out with them. Lol, it has been a while since I heard that term.

[Raskholnikov]

WidowMakers,

I do appreciate your detailed reply. It shows that you really care about this place and its people that you took the time to write such a well-argued and impassionate reply.

However, you missed the crux of my argument. I am not claiming that people with no experience in map-making should be praised in their work despite their weak skills. I do not pretend to say that clearly inferior maps should be quenched. I do not even assert that the Foundry process, as lengthy as it is, is flawed. Any production system can be improved, but overall, I have no major problems with it.

My argument focuses on the attitude of established Foundry members towards those long-term members who think they have the right to harass, demean, insult, and ridicule newer members' work and cover it up as "constructive criticism" which is acceptable because "it works". Now constructive criticism is one thing; insensitive power trips purely designed to hurt the person who is just as much a volunteer as any Foundry member and who tries his best to make a positive contribution is another. You never really know who the person behind the avatar is, how old or sick or depressed he is, how much his work here matters to him, how much he can be hurt and depressed in real life because of the verbal abuse he is put trough here by self-centered teenagers or the hubris of others who think that their skills in designing a virtual map gives them the right to ignore all rules of politeness, civility, and good behaviour because "it works".

So when this happens, it is the job of the senior foundry members and moderators to discipline those exerienced map-makers and foundry mebmers who act in such an unacceptable way, ensure they stop acting in such a reprehensible manner, and give the newer members with admittedly weaker skills the chance to learn, improve and progress without being subjected to such demeaning and abusive language. Instead, what tends to happen is a circling of the wagons around these foundry members, by defending their comments as necessary "constructive criticism" which "works" and by asking the newer members who had just been insulted and put through the ringer to "grow a tough skin" and "not take it personally". Or, even worse, one can even see Foundry moderators censoring the comments of those who dare stand up to such bullies and using their powers of suspension to give them a "forum vacation" - just because they can, while the real culprits who had began the cycle of flaming and bating and abuse in the first place are left to their own devices.

Now, if the Foundry leaders and moderators had designed and enforced clear guidelines regarding acceptable behavior in the Foundry, and ensured that no such abuse would be tolerated in the first place, not in the name of "constructive criticism", or because "it works", or because "everyone has to go though this in order ot learn", or for any other reason, then the problem would go away. It is exactly because they don't do so that those newever members who were attacked, and their friends, feel that they have to stand up for what is fair and point out how utterly intolerable and totally unacceptable such a "hazing" behaviour is. Not it real life, not in any working place, not in any sports or entertainment or leisure club, and certainly not here.

And please remember, unlike American Idol, where contestants do sometimes get harsh critiques of their performance, there is no million-dollar prize, recording contract and assured musical career for the "lucky winner" here whose map finally gets quenched. People come here to have fun, make a contribution, and learn something. No one has the right to abuse them just because their skills are not up to par. And it is the job of the moderators to ensure this does not happen - not to swipe it under the carpet, protect the established foundry members who act in such an inappropriate manner, and discipline and punish the newer members who refuse to accept such treatment and dare stand up to the bullies and slanderers who think they can say pretty much about anything they want - no matter how insulting, abusive and hurtful it is.

In short, I don't disagree with you regarding the substance of the map-making process in the Foundry. My argument is with the procedures and the Foundry leaders' failure to keep their own house in order so as to ensure that such regrettable incidents don't happen in the first place, and thus allow all of us to get on doing what we're here to do in the first place: relax, have a good time, learn something, and make a contribution to this community. And until they will stop circling their wagons around the older members who act up because they know they can do so with no consequences, and actually start enforing their own rules of civility and good behaviour and mutual respect against anyone who violates them, irrespective of the time they have been there, their contributions to the foundry, their number of posts or the color their name is written on, this unfortunate cycle of events will continue to happen.

[captainwalrus]

"The foundry clique?" Really? Is that what you think the oldschool foundry guys are? A group of bitchy teenage girls who won't let you hang out with them. Lol, it has been a while since I heard that term.

Old school ?
How can you call 15 year old delinquents, "old school" ?

Cause they have boon around a lot longer. Age doesn't matter, they are good at making maps and they have been here for a while.

[gimil]

Your argument seems just, but you speak to generically about the issues you have with the process. However this is not jsut you but anyone who has had similar complaints to yours over the years.

I was a moderator for 16 months in the foundry and for the most part I never witnessed alot of abuse to the extent you claim there is. If such abus exists I believe it is not the primary role of the foundry team to 'moderate' the foundry like traditional forums. There role is to keep the map process in general moving along, that is how it has always been.

That does not excuse them from stopping abuse should it arise, but it is not their job to find it. The foudnry is simple to large to be policed liek that. Should a user come across abuse I would argue that it is their duty to report it to someone who can do something about it. Instead in my 16 months experience most people didn't report abuse and then complained about the lack of support and the amount of abuse towards new map makers.

Lets use another analogy,

Your local police force are they for the purpose to serve and protect society. They do this to the best of their abilities but you must remeber that they cannot possible hunt out and resolve every single crime.

my local police force consists of just over 8000 officers, policing a population of 2.2 million people. Now you can't possible expect 8000 officers to police 2.2million people without the help of society. That is why you have your 911's, 999's, and 211 numbers. It means that people can report crimes when they happen. It brings attention to the crime, so that the police can advance to investigate and bring forward justice.

The foudnry is no diffrent. There is 4 volunteers looking over (at a guess) more than 100 people. With many users posting more than once or twice a day. 4 volunteers simple cannot keep up with every post in every thread everyday while keeping the process following. It is to much. If abuse is to been countered it first has to be reported.

I do not deny Raskholnikov that there is a problem. What I am saying is that while it is all find and well that you sit hear and make your voice heard. But you, like many that complain, complain generically. Without showing evidence of such crimes being committed, without claiming you report abuse.

If you (and others) want you argument to withstand, you have to prove that there is a problem. Simply saying there is one will not do.

To counter this problem I challenge everyone who reads this post to report one post that they consider to be abuse within the foundry. PM a mod, click the report a post buttom, but do not leave it and expect the cavalry to come it and save the day. It doesn’t work like that.


Cheers,
gimil

[AndyDufresne]

"The foundry clique?" Really? Is that what you think the oldschool foundry guys are? A group of bitchy teenage girls who won't let you hang out with them. Lol, it has been a while since I heard that term.

This made me chuckle. Thanks captainwalrus.


--Andy

[dolomite13]

I have been playing CC for well over a year now and spent allot of time in the foundry... including 14 months now working on a map... so here is my 2 cents worth...

-The people?

The people of the foundry seem like a really good bunch of people. For the most part the criticisms and comments that are made about maps seem spot on and well thought out. That is not to say that that the people in the foundry are infallible but I do enjoy reading and interacting with the people in the foundry.

-The staff?

I would say that most of the staff have treated me well and shown enthusiasm about helping me with my maps. Most of the comments have been constructive. However I do get a sense that when a foundry member has personal objections to a map that the map seems to get lost in the shuffle.

-The maps?

I love most of the maps, I have my favorites and of course there are a few that I can see obvious gameplay issues or graphic issue that I would have done differently however I will bet everyone has their own opinions and criticisms. I would love to see some sort of map segregation into categories, for instance a "WW2" category where all historic and possibly fictional WW2 scenarios and maps can be listed for those that like that sort of thing. I would also like to see a more visible way to collect feedback from players and mapmakers that would allow for the ability to feature maps with low play but high positive ratings etc.

-The process?

The drafting room is a great part of the map process. I think that you get a real sense of whither or not the map is going to make it through the foundry based on the interactions of the staff and the mapmakers. The main foundry however seems to be a bit slow and the place where good maps wallow for far too long. I am not sure if it is a lack of staff or overwork but this seems to be the place that needs the most attention. The final forge is fantastic, everyone from the mapmaker to the staff seems like they have their eyes set on the prize and want to get the map into play so that people can enjoy it.

Thanx

=D=

[jefjef]

Very many good people in the foundry. Unfortunately a few condescending, arrogant and "yes" go with the flow people tend to hamper and diminish the experience and hinder the process along with squashing creativity.

[paulk]

I think the foundry is way too rigid and there are only a selected few that takes their time to look at the progress of maps.
I doubt it really is the represented opinion of the regular CC player that always shines through.

In my opinion this could be fixed, and the public more involved, IF - and this is a BIG IF - maps were possible to play as they were developed.
I am talking about a totally new way to handle the maps, and the public's interest.

If you have a map and the XML for it ready, it should be possible to on a special arena, by invitation only, and without points, stars or anything else, (except possibly a medal for participating) play the map to figure out it's quirks "hands on".
These games should be possible by letting regular players "sign up" on the map threads they are interested in (maybe with a limit) and would probably dramatically raise both the understanding for a current map and the interest for all the new maps.

The result would be a faster development for maps, better feedback, more interest from the public (I bet many don't even know that new maps are produced by the community), and in the end much better maps.

The map maker would be in charge of setting up the games, 1 at a time (or a few at a time?) and would also have the right to terminate a game with (or without?) the other players consent, should a serious flaw show up.

Summarized:

• A special arena is created for maps under development, accessed by invitation only.
• Players can sign up for the maps they are interested in playing during development.
• The map maker set up the game/s.
• The games don't affect any score, points, stars or similar.

[natty dread]

I think that's a wonderful idea paulk. Why not post it on the suggestions forum?

[Incandenza]

A map sandbox, along the lines that paul has described, has been suggested as far back as 2007, and if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, I would rate the possibility of it happening as somewhere between zero and 1%. So I wouldn't hold your respective breaths...

[MrBenn]

As for the foundry processes - yes, there is room for improvement.

There is also the smell of change on the wind...

[paulk]

A map sandbox, along the lines that paul has described, has been suggested as far back as 2007, and if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, I would rate the possibility of it happening as somewhere between zero and 1%. So I wouldn't hold your respective breaths...

between zero and 1% - on who's authority?

[the.killing.44]

A map sandbox, along the lines that paul has described, has been suggested as far back as 2007, and if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, I would rate the possibility of it happening as somewhere between zero and 1%. So I wouldn't hold your respective breaths...

between zero and 1% - on who's authority?

A CC precedent of not making updates, even those promised.

[MrBenn]

A map sandbox, along the lines that paul has described, has been suggested as far back as 2007, and if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, I would rate the possibility of it happening as somewhere between zero and 1%. So I wouldn't hold your respective breaths...

between zero and 1% - on who's authority?

lackattack has always (to my knowledge) been against a test-area for maps. The Beta phase of development was only introduced after the severe (and unforeseen) gameplay flaws of Das Schloss forced the foundry team to twist his shell...

[paulk]

A map sandbox, along the lines that paul has described, has been suggested as far back as 2007, and if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, I would rate the possibility of it happening as somewhere between zero and 1%. So I wouldn't hold your respective breaths...

between zero and 1% - on who's authority?

lackattack has always (to my knowledge) been against a test-area for maps. The Beta phase of development was only introduced after the severe (and unforeseen) gameplay flaws of Das Schloss forced the foundry team to twist his shell...

That is just wrong. Chicken.

[jefjef]

With all that said <cough> I'd love to see more polls related to the map creation process.

Overall I myself enjoy visiting the foundry. It's about the only sane place (for the most part) in these forums.

THANK YOU MAP TEAM!

[porkenbeans]

With all that said <cough> I'd love to see more polls related to the map creation process.

Overall I myself enjoy visiting the foundry. It's about the only sane place (for the most part) in these forums.

THANK YOU MAP TEAM!

They have tried to bring in a wider audience to critique maps. The problem is they already have those few that view the forums that are interested. The large majority of CC members do not even know what a forum is, so how can you get the true populas view of CC gamers ?

I have suggested this before, but it went nowhere. I will suggest it once more.

CC should send out via pm to all CC members, a monthly newsletter. How do they expect people to sign up for a newsletter when they do not ever visit the forum. This would be great for CC and its members alike. CC could garner much more feedback on things like maps and such, and members could be more informed about CC. This will lead to a whole new group of CC posters, that would be a step outside of today's, little box. Polls would garner the numbers into the thousands, instead of the 20 or so at the most, that participate today.

On top of this CC would have an influx of non paid volunteers that could help to fill the big gap that exists.

[Industrial Helix]

With all that said <cough> I'd love to see more polls related to the map creation process.

Overall I myself enjoy visiting the foundry. It's about the only sane place (for the most part) in these forums.

THANK YOU MAP TEAM!

They have tried to bring in a wider audience to critique maps. The problem is they already have those few that view the forums that are interested. The large majority of CC members do not even know what a forum is, so how can you get the true populas view of CC gamers ?

I have suggested this before, but it went nowhere. I will suggest it once more.

CC should send out via pm to all CC members, a monthly newsletter. How do they expect people to sign up for a newsletter when they do not ever visit the forum. This would be great for CC and its members alike. CC could garner much more feedback on things like maps and such, and members could be more informed about CC. This will lead to a whole new group of CC posters that would be a step outside of the box. Polls would garner the numbers into the thousands instead of the 20 or so at the most that participate today.

On top of this CC would have an influx of non paid volunteers that could help to fill the big gap that exists.

I suggested something like this and it went completely unnoticed in the suggestion forum. Though I said that something like a front page e-zine would be a better idea. It would include a basic intro to the site for those new, the login and the e-zine with general info about what's going on, new maps, ect., tournaments, info on members... ect.

it would be just basic headlines that one could click and follow or whatever. Especially for maps, this would be great, things like "Do you want another rail map?" "Should Germany be revamped?" "American Colonies map in the works" Ect. could go on and on. They could host polls as well: Should Africa be revamped? ad we'd have the go ahead for it or not. I think it really would have a unifying effect on the forums and the site. But alas, no one else does.

[porkenbeans]

With all that said <cough> I'd love to see more polls related to the map creation process.

Overall I myself enjoy visiting the foundry. It's about the only sane place (for the most part) in these forums.

THANK YOU MAP TEAM!

They have tried to bring in a wider audience to critique maps. The problem is they already have those few that view the forums that are interested. The large majority of CC members do not even know what a forum is, so how can you get the true populas view of CC gamers ?

I have suggested this before, but it went nowhere. I will suggest it once more.

CC should send out via pm to all CC members, a monthly newsletter. How do they expect people to sign up for a newsletter when they do not ever visit the forum. This would be great for CC and its members alike. CC could garner much more feedback on things like maps and such, and members could be more informed about CC. This will lead to a whole new group of CC posters that would be a step outside of the box. Polls would garner the numbers into the thousands instead of the 20 or so at the most that participate today.

On top of this CC would have an influx of non paid volunteers that could help to fill the big gap that exists.

I suggested something like this and it went completely unnoticed in the suggestion forum. Though I said that something like a front page e-zine would be a better idea. It would include a basic intro to the site for those new, the login and the e-zine with general info about what's going on, new maps, ect., tournaments, info on members... ect.

it would be just basic headlines that one could click and follow or whatever. Especially for maps, this would be great, things like "Do you want another rail map?" "Should Germany be revamped?" "American Colonies map in the works" Ect. could go on and on. They could host polls as well: Should Africa be revamped? ad we'd have the go ahead for it or not. I think it really would have a unifying effect on the forums and the site. But alas, no one else does.

Well brother there are 2 of us so far. I am sure that we will from a few others on this suggestion. I really can NOT see any reasonable argument against it.

[TaCktiX]

Whoa, a lot of bad blood is getting boiled here. I think we're running off of topic faster than a bullet train that hit a bent rail. Keel it back guys, we're all mature here in some capacity.

As for my personal opinion of the foundry, it is one of the most rigorous peer review systems I have ever encountered, and I believe that is its core strength. Do maps get released as quickly as they conceivably could be? No. Do all maps get equal attention? No. Is the foundry perfect? Certainly no. There may be room for improvement, but the core concept is rock solid. If applied everywhere, which everyone should strive to do, peer review makes every map on CC the best it can possibly be, and accepts no pathetic excuses for not improving.

[Raskholnikov]

As for my personal opinion of the foundry, it is one of the most rigorous peer review systems I have ever encountered, and I believe that is its core strength.

I entirely agree with this. Now if we could work a bit on making rules clearer, the system more efficient and the conversation more polite and respectful, we would go a long way in making this place a truly enjoyable and professional place to be and work and even - yes!- have fun.

[porkenbeans]

As for my personal opinion of the foundry, it is one of the most rigorous peer review systems I have ever encountered, and I believe that is its core strength.

I entirely agree with this. Now if we could work a bit on making rules clearer, the system more efficient and the conversation more polite and respectful, we would go a long way in making this place a truly enjoyable and professional place to be and work and even - yes!- have fun.

As usual, you are spot on Rask. You certainly have a way to voice your views, while at the same time, smooth the feathers of those that do not share them. I respect you very much for these diplomatic abilities that you have. I want you to know that I do not think that I could have ever found a better person to partner up with in map making. I hear your words, and I agree that this community would be much better served, if there were more civility in practice, around this place.

[gimil]

As for my personal opinion of the foundry, it is one of the most rigorous peer review systems I have ever encountered, and I believe that is its core strength.

I entirely agree with this. Now if we could work a bit on making rules clearer, the system more efficient and the conversation more polite and respectful, we would go a long way in making this place a truly enjoyable and professional place to be and work and even - yes!- have fun.

As usual, you are spot on Rask. You certainly have a way to voice your views, while at the same time, smooth the feathers of those that do not share them. I respect you very much for these diplomatic abilities that you have. I want you to know that I do not think that I could have ever found a better person to partner up with in map making. I hear your words, and I agree that this community would be much better served, if there were more civility in practice, around this place.

Then why not say what change you want? Rather than simply stating that you want change? Tell me and the community what you want to change exactly, how you want it to be done. What specific policies you want to see, how the process can be made more efficient, how can conversation been steered in the right direction?