I'm not understanding the Bible at this point

[alex951]

Then the trolls invade the thread.


We really need an option to be able to click an option on a post as "spam" and it would not be seen by anyone who clicks "spam" button. Yeah I know we have the "block user" in out profile but we need something quicker and that just pertains to specific posts. (Youtube has this option)

Jay, your posts would get bombarded. Seriously. Not just new posts, some vindictive sod would go through old threads marking all your posts.

Do you think I would care if a person marks my posts as spam so that HE/SHE can't see it? Anyone who doesn't mark it as spam can still read it. You have someone here asking a question and then some half-wits come in and post, nothing to add to the discussion, they just want to slam the topic he brought up. SPAM.

sorry i thought it was funny

[notyou2]

The giant thing is borrowed from Greco-Roman religion. Just like christmas trees from northern Europe. Apparently they were running out of their own ideas so borrowed stuff. Besides the Greco-Romans didn't complain.

[Phatscotty]

The giant thing is borrowed from Greco-Roman religion. Just like christmas trees from northern Europe. Apparently they were running out of their own ideas so borrowed stuff. Besides the Greco-Romans didn't complain.

How tall was Xerxes?

[joecoolfrog]

From a purely historical perspective there is no great mystery , the OT is a series of written texts that would have originated from a much earlier oral tradion. There is evidence that around 10,000 BC there was migration into central Asia from regions further North , these newcomers were physically taller and stronger, a result it is surmised of the harsher climatic conditions they had evolved through. These relative ' giants ' would have interbred with the local population and over time become part of the Genesis tradition, similar stories abound in tribal societies worldwide.

[neanderpaul14]

The giant thing is borrowed from Greco-Roman religion. Just like christmas trees from northern Europe. Apparently they were running out of their own ideas so borrowed stuff. Besides the Greco-Romans didn't complain.

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

[Phatscotty]

From a purely historical perspective there is no great mystery , the OT is a series of written texts that would have originated from a much earlier oral tradion. There is evidence that around 10,000 BC there was migration into central Asia from regions further North , these newcomers were physically taller and stronger, a result it is surmised of the harsher climatic conditions they had evolved through. These relative ' giants ' would have interbred with the local population and over time become part of the Genesis tradition, similar stories abound in tribal societies worldwide.

I'd buy that. What about coming down from the stars tho? And Eziekiel?

[jay_a2j]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

[Iliad]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

DAMN THOSE OTHER OPINIONS!

Doesn't it suck when people disagree with your perfect point of view? Won't you just love it if you don't ever have to hear anyone who holds a different opinion?


Jay, have fun shutting yourself in your in your own world.

[jay_a2j]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

DAMN THOSE OTHER OPINIONS!

Doesn't it suck when people disagree with your perfect point of view? Won't you just love it if you don't ever have to hear anyone who holds a different opinion?


Jay, have fun shutting yourself in your in your own world.

Opinion stated as fact? " Actually (statement of fact) the WHOLE bible (not just a book, the WHOLE thing) is pretty much plagiarized (documentation please) from earlier religions, cultures and myths."


He did not state this as an opinion. He stated it as if he actually knows something about the subject at hand.


Nice try though.


The debate is over...

[Gregrios]

The Book of Genesis
Old Testament

God had children? And they were giants? They took human wives, and their children became supermen??? Is this supposed to mean exactly what it is saying? I am confused.

If God had children it would stand to reason that they would be extraordonary in some way, considering the source. You must also realize that the word "giant" could refer to anybody 7 feet or taller. The hieghth of God's children would be limited to a certain degree simply because of the sexual relations with the women. Do the math. As for their children, instead of coming out giants they came out with normal hieghth combined with extraordinary strength. At least this is how I see it. Hope I helped you make some sense of it.

[AlgyTaylor]

The Book of Genesis
Old Testament

God had children? And they were giants? They took human wives, and their children became supermen??? Is this supposed to mean exactly what it is saying? I am confused.

Right.

Do you believe the Lord of the Rings actually happened? And Star Wars? And ...

[BigBallinStalin]

So tell us, jay, you seem to quote the Bible a lot, yet you haven't contributed too much to this thread except for the obvious negativity.

Anything positive you'd like to enlighten us with?

[jay_a2j]

So tell us, jay, you seem to quote the Bible a lot, yet you haven't contributed too much to this thread except for the obvious negativity.

Anything positive you'd like to enlighten us with?

re-read my first couple posts.

[joecoolfrog]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

DAMN THOSE OTHER OPINIONS!

Doesn't it suck when people disagree with your perfect point of view? Won't you just love it if you don't ever have to hear anyone who holds a different opinion?


Jay, have fun shutting yourself in your in your own world.

Opinion stated as fact? " Actually (statement of fact) the WHOLE bible (not just a book, the WHOLE thing) is pretty much plagiarized (documentation please) from earlier religions, cultures and myths."


He did not state this as an opinion. He stated it as if he actually knows something about the subject at hand.


Nice try though.


The debate is over...

Are you denying the following ;
1) Large parts of the Old Testament are rooted in now obselete religions and Pagan rituals that far pre date the Torah and other Judaic scripture.
2) The Old Testament in its entirety was lifted from Judaic tradition and used as the historical bedrock of the Christian bible.
3) The very concept of divinity and a messiah are Jewish in nature , Jesus as portrayed in the New Testament is almost the perfect composite of what fundamentalist Jews of the period would have been seeking.
4) The Christian church , as we know it today , survived by accomodating earlier schools of thought , without Pagan influences it would never have been acceptable to Constantine.
5) For over 1000 years the Paulistic brand of Christianity ( ie the one accepted and promoted by the church ) persecuted any form of dissent, many of these ' heretics ' might today be considered to have had rather a purer faith.
6) New Religions have always plagurised older ones, creation fables are as old as mankind itself, Christianity owes a debt to Judaism just as the Protestant church does to the Catholic , just another branch of evolution that some just cannot bring themselves to accept

[neanderpaul14]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

What, which parts were not plagiarized? The whole flood story was stolen almost in its entirety from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Most of the ideas and ideals of your little Jewish cult you now call christianity are almost totally "borrowed", in other words stolen, from earlier religions mostly Buddhism and Taoism.

Jesus was a con-man, a huckster, granted he had good publicists but still.

[karelpietertje]

The Book of Genesis
Old Testament

God had children? And they were giants? They took human wives, and their children became supermen??? Is this supposed to mean exactly what it is saying? I am confused.

The hieghth of God's children would be limited to a certain degree simply because of the sexual relations with the women. Do the math.

lol. so funny how youguys try to continue with your logic even though it fails.
Things start getting complicated when you say a woman got pregnant from a God, without losing her virginity, thousands of years ago....

[BigBallinStalin]

So tell us, jay, you seem to quote the Bible a lot, yet you haven't contributed too much to this thread except for the obvious negativity.

Anything positive you'd like to enlighten us with?

re-read my first couple posts.

lol, yeah I will. A few minutes after I wrote this, I remember you providing that link. I'll check it out later, and thanks.


And good luck answering joecoolfrog's response...

[finchboy]

What, which parts were not plagiarized?

Lot's the flood story is certainly lifted from the near eastern exillic tradition, and is a combination of two myths, one is creation section of the Gilgamesh epic, the other the Atrahasis epic which is assyrian rather than babylonian. Many other parts of the Hebrew scriptures bare the hallmarks of other religious traditions but few are as similar as the flood story and the near eastern flood/creation myth.

The whole flood story was stolen almost in its entirety from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

You can't steal a tradition as it implies ownership, the Israelite were enslaved and exiled into babylonia and assyria in the period your talking about and their faiths and myths became intertwined much like their genepool.

Most of the ideas and ideals of your little Jewish cult you now call christianity

little? lol, Jewish? Christians spent hundreds of years killing them for killing Christ, cultist practice usually returns to base creation principal usually rejected by others, if one one the two has to be cultist (and neither does really) it's traditional Rabbinic (ie non-reformed) Judaism, which its strictly adhered to creation story and genetic initiate predicate.

are almost totally "borrowed", in other words stolen, from earlier religions mostly Buddhism and Taoism.

Drivel, there is no evidence for whatsoever, in fact Abraham was allegedly born a mere 1520 year earlier than budda, If you want to play the "earliest predicates" game, Buddism loses to hinduism bigstyle.

Jesus was a con-man, a huckster, granted he had good publicists but still.

Jesus was at least versed in the Hebrew tradition, it's a bit more than we can say for you eh?

F

[nagerous]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

Foe lists?

[jonesthecurl]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

Foe lists?

No, I think what jay's saying is he might find Neanderpaul intersting or amusing in certain contexts, and indeed wouldn't object to playing against him - but he doesn't want to read his contributions to this thread.

I'm not sure that's a good idea, but I can see what he's saying.

Jay, have you put this in the Suggestions forum? It's at least worth considering.

[PLAYER57832]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

DAMN THOSE OTHER OPINIONS!

Doesn't it suck when people disagree with your perfect point of view? Won't you just love it if you don't ever have to hear anyone who holds a different opinion?


Jay, have fun shutting yourself in your in your own world.

Opinion stated as fact? " Actually (statement of fact) the WHOLE bible (not just a book, the WHOLE thing) is pretty much plagiarized (documentation please) from earlier religions, cultures and myths."


He did not state this as an opinion. He stated it as if he actually knows something about the subject at hand.


Nice try though.


The debate is over...

Not really.

As I have said before, little of this is provable in the scientific manner. It is a matter of belief. Therefore, those outside the faith will consider the Bible "just a story".. and, well, we cannot prove otherwise.

That said, while we cannot prove anything, we can dispute some assertions.

Are you denying the following ;
1) Large parts of the Old Testament are rooted in now obselete religions and Pagan rituals that far pre date the Torah and other Judaic scripture.

True, but irrelevant. Other cultures share the same memories, but unlike other cultures, Judaic tradition has it that Jews were given the written truth.

The other version, more controversial, is that perhaps other cultures also speak the truth, but in ways more understood by their cultures, their people. Either way, that those cultures had stories resembling the Bible written down earlier is just irrelevant.

2) The Old Testament in its entirety was lifted from Judaic tradition and used as the historical bedrock of the Christian bible.

Huh? Up until Christ, it was just Judaism. We share the same Old Testament. However, when Christ came to give us the Gospel, he also corrected some misunderstandings humans had, clarified some points, etc. The Jews did not accept this. Therefore, while the traditions differ and some alliterations differ, the original text to which we each look is identical. Some Jews consider the original old Testament to be "too sacred" for all but the rabbis to read.

3) The very concept of divinity and a messiah are Jewish in nature , Jesus as portrayed in the New Testament is almost the perfect composite of what fundamentalist Jews of the period would have been seeking.

Yes, and?

4) The Christian church , as we know it today , survived by accomodating earlier schools of thought , without Pagan influences it would never have been acceptable to Constantine

Humans change, but the Bible does not. The language we use changes, but the fundamental message does not. Differences in understanding are due to human error. This has less to do with the Biblical text, but a lot to do with the culture of the church and much of what many people associate with "the church". However, much of that is not, in truth real Christianity. It is culture.

5) For over 1000 years the Paulistic brand of Christianity ( ie the one accepted and promoted by the church ) persecuted any form of dissent, many of these ' heretics ' might today be considered to have had rather a purer faith.

OK, hold up here. Martin Luther has look largely to Paul, but other leaders look more to other apostles. The Roman Catholic Church, in particular looks more to Peter, etc. That is the root of much of the division between the two. (though I am simplifying almos to the point of untruth).

6) New Religions have always plagurised older ones, creation fables are as old as mankind itself, Christianity owes a debt to Judaism just as the Protestant church does to the Catholic , just another branch of evolution that some just cannot bring themselves to accept

True.

[2dimes]

Rats. "the debate is over." I knew I should have got in here sooner.

Well see you in the next one.

[jay_a2j]

Actually the whole bible is pretty much just plagiarized from earlier religions, cultures, and myths.

See, it's crap like this that makes a spam button needed.

What, which parts were not plagiarized? The whole flood story was stolen almost in its entirety from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Most of the ideas and ideals of your little Jewish cult you now call christianity are almost totally "borrowed", in other words stolen, from earlier religions mostly Buddhism and Taoism.

Jesus was a con-man, a huckster, granted he had good publicists but still.

Maybe because the flood ACTUALLY HAPPENED! This is not even up for debate as the scientific evidence of "a great flood" is in. So is it that far fetched that different groups of people recorded a great flood??? I won't even comment on your description of Jesus, that will be between you and Him.

[Juan_Bottom]

This is specifically what my Bible says:

And it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the lord said "my spirit shall not that always strive with man for that he also is flesh. Yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men. And they bear children to them. The same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth. And that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually. And It repented the lord that he made man on the earth.

This leads to the flood.
Is my Bible shortening this up?
Thanks for the help guys(and player). I can see that there is some disagreements as to what this means exactly. When I first read it I wondered if it was a claim over the Roman/Pagan Gods, or if it was to mean angels. gannable makes sense here, and so does player. The odd reference to "the heroes of old" and 'giants" doesn't seem to belong here at all.
I can't see it being fallen angels. If it were, that would mean that there are some part angel men running around today. And if they were fallen angel men, doesn't that imply that they are demonic men?

Continuing:
Still in Genesis

and God said "Let us make man in our image"

"Behold that man has become one of us, to know good and evil"

Is this meant to imply or to say that there is more than one God? Or that there is more than one of his kind? Or is this how people talked back in the day? Or is this God speaking with angels? If I just had this part of the Bible and the part about his children taking wives I would think it were God talking to his God sons. I'm beginning to think that I must have a condensed version of the Bible. There don't seem to be any details here that would help a brother out.


After God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden, he placed a flaming sword in it which turned every way:
'the flaming sword to keep way of the tree of life'

What does this mean exactly? Is this a reference to Gabriel? I am pretty clueless about what this means too. I this another little thing where there are no direct explanations?

Right.

Do you believe the Lord of the Rings actually happened? And Star Wars? And ...

I am the founder of the GH usergroup.

From a purely historical perspective there is no great mystery , the OT is a series of written texts that would have originated from a much earlier oral tradion. There is evidence that around 10,000 BC there was migration into central Asia from regions further North , these newcomers were physically taller and stronger, a result it is surmised of the harsher climatic conditions they had evolved through. These relative ' giants ' would have interbred with the local population and over time become part of the Genesis tradition, similar stories abound in tribal societies worldwide.

This seems legit and too coincidental all at the same time.

well, #1 , you are having a hard time with genesis, not the entire bible, and at that, the very beginning of Genesis. #2 as you atheists know, there is no god anyways......so I don't see why you are confused, and I am certain you are just an anti-christian

He's interested in knowing how Christians feel about an odd passage in the Old Testament, so he's anti-Christian?

well, 3# this isnt the first time ive heard juan degrade christianity and I don't believe it's genuine. #4 hes pointing out the oldest shit that the "ancients" passed down, which is also always the first things anti-christians point to. The simple fact that he TITLES "the bible" and the real topic matter is page 1 of Genesis, or 1 of over at least 1,300 pages tells me his intentions. I dont pussy foot and call them as I see them. For the record I'm not the biggest believer by any means, Yet am able to recognize a venomous assault on a religeon that millions of people depend on just to get thru the day, not to mention dealing with death

Genesis is still a part of the Bible isn't it?
It's the first part, and that is all the further I got before I started having questions. If I made it all the way to Malachi before asking a question then you would know that I wasn't reading in earnest.
#2 is correct.

I didn't degrade Christianity here. I don't even see how you could possibly think that. And you would be hard pressed to find a thread anywhere that I started specifically to attack Christianity. And you haven't even been regularly posting in here as long as I have; have you been lurking?

Don't you think calling a question about Genesis "a venomous assault on a religion" is a bit exaggerated? If I wanted to attack Christianity I wouldn't use false pretenses, and I never have. This thread is actually more of a continuation of the "suggest awesome Bible passages" thread that I started before my lengthy absence.
Finally, the Bible says that God never gives up on people. As a Christian I am certain that you are required to either offer the other cheek (amirite Bible fans?!) or simply not turn away from people yourself. You're not allowed to ever give up.

I won't even comment on your description of Jesus, that will be between you and Him.

I don't know why, but that made me laugh.

[PLAYER57832]

Maybe because the flood ACTUALLY HAPPENED! This is not even up for debate as the scientific evidence of "a great flood" is in.

There is no evidence of the entire world being fully submerged in water at the same time. There is evidence of many very wide-spread floods, shifts in the continents, etc.

I believe it happened, but your claim that it is "not disputed" is just wrong.