Philosophy Final- God Exists

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:07 pm

What a pile of kack.....

I can't remember what I had for dinner last night and I don't know what I'm having for lunch tomorrow so I can't prove that I exist therefore God exists.....

Seems to me that not eating for a while and wandering around a desert or up a mountain is the only way to meet God

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:15 pm

Richard Dawkins is to Christians what the Apostle Paul is to Athiests, not a very reliable source.

It seems to me that the only way to ignore God is revel in your hubris.

Jesse, Bad Boy · Post by **Jesse, Bad Boy** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:25 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Richard Dawkins is to Christians what the Apostle Paul is to Athiests, not a very reliable source.

It seems to me that the only way to ignore God is revel in your hubris.

You can't come up with a suitable, intelligent comeback, so you resort to what can be summed up as "no u"?

No amount of reasoning could prove the existence of "God". Whether it be Pascal's Wager, an appeal to emotion, an appeal to authority, circular logic, or any other inane method lacking rational and objective reasoning, "God" cannot be proven.

MeDeFe · Post by **MeDeFe** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:35 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Emprically, the only feasable position is agnosticism.

YES!

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:51 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Richard Dawkins is to Christians what the Apostle Paul is to Athiests, not a very reliable source.

It seems to me that the only way to ignore God is revel in your hubris.

To be fair, the entire bible is an unreliable source for atheists, given its subject matter.

And what do you mean, 'the only way to ignore god'? how can i ignore something I don't believe is there?

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:11 pm

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:You can't come up with a suitable, intelligent comeback, so you resort to what can be summed up as "no u"?

Actually, I've presented an entire, coherent epistemology, and every one just says "I don't believe it" So, may I point out, I don't believe you either, and further, most of you haven't said anything significant at all. If this were a debate, I have demonstrated that my position is logical. Care to posit where the universe came from? the ideas of goodness or beauty? conciousness? Can't get that in a lab, but God answeres these question nicely. So, Believeing God has as much "proof" as not believing God, but God is a better answer to tough metaphysical questions.

What about you Jesse? Care to make a few positive statements, or are you the eternal skeptic?

heavycola wrote:To be fair, the entire bible is an unreliable source for atheists, given its subject matter.

exactly, and richard dawkins is an unreliable source for Christians, because of his a priori assumptions. It was a metaphor.

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:14 pm

MR. Nate wrote: God is a better answer to tough metaphysical questions.

says who?

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:19 pm

If there is no God, it appears that something like beauty is difficult to find a reason for. Where do concepts like truth art emerge in a world entirly geared toward survival?

Bertros Bertros · Post by **Bertros Bertros** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:01 pm

MR. Nate wrote:If there is no God, it appears that something like beauty is difficult to find a reason for. Where do concepts like truth art emerge in a world entirly geared toward survival?

Oh Mr. Nate that is such a vacuous argument. Art exists whether there is a God or not, it doesn't prove he exists. To suggest it does is only the reverse of the equally vacuous argument that there is suffering therefore there is no God.

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:11 pm

But where did it come from? I can tell you where suffering came from, that's not a problem in my worldview. It's not an argument, it's a question.

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:22 pm

Art and truth are constructs.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:07 pm

Ahhh Mr. Nate, my oh so deluded friend (that would be my fanciful comment

)...YOU must then believe in Unicorns, since according to you, I cant prove to you I am not one, correct?

Do you also believe in Fairys, Minotaurs and Leprechauns? According to your odd rules of debate, you cannot prove they do not exist...so like your fairytales of gods, parting seas and magical wine-making, they must be real. Have you brought that up to your religious instructors? "Prove that leprechauns dont exist Father".

(Fanciful comment #2) Of course not. You are attending a school of delusion...led by the delusional, instructing the new recruits in the finer art of delusion.

Mr. Nate...have you like jay, also been indoctrinated into this cult since birth? Let me guess...your midwestern family is very religious, you were heavy into youth group, attended services every sunday and dined at many a pancake breakfast. You listen to christian rock and think chick tracts are cool. Am I close? Were you also healed by a TV preacher? Just curious! (Fanciful comment #3!)

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:57 pm

qeee1 wrote:Art and truth are constructs.

And completely human constructs at that, as are the concepts of good, evil, and beauty.

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:21 am

I don't want to put words in anyone elses mouth, but if Art, truth, good and evil are constructs, why were they constructed? Art has no evolutionary purpose, nor does truth. So, who constructed them, when and why were they motivated to do so?

As far as unicorns, leprechauns, minotaurs, etc, they are not incorrigable. That's generally known as the "Great Pumpkin" response to the argument.

Midwest, check, religious family, check, youth group, check, pancake breakfasts, check.
Christian rock . . . UGh, it tends to have little asthetic value.

Give me the white stripes any day. Chick tracks . . . Do they still even make those? I had no idea. TV preachers . . . not a fan, not at all.

Since we're discussing backgrounds, backglass, were you raised by an agnostic family, or one that claimed to be religious but didn't actually practice? And would you care do defend your athiesm since agnosticism is the "neutral" position, or do you prefer to fling insults?

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:41 am

Care to posit where the universe came from? the ideas of goodness or beauty? conciousness? Can't get that in a lab, but God answeres these question nicely.

God doesn;t answer those questions 'nicely' at all! It's a soppy answer. And we havent; found the answers in a lab - yet. 1,000 years ago you could have asked us to posit why the sun rises every day or how the stars manage to stay hanging in the sky. God was a cosy answer to those questions too,

Quantum cosmology suggests that the 'reason' for the universe's existence could well be contained within itself. No need to go one step further. So science is still filling in the gaps. As for goodness/beauty - they fall under consciousness, and working that out is liek trying to look at a microscope through itself. It wil take time i'm sure. But if people had been content with using god as an answer to everything, we'd still be in the dark ages.

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:51 am

MR. Nate wrote:I don't want to put words in anyone elses mouth, but if Art, truth, good and evil are constructs, why were they constructed? Art has no evolutionary purpose, nor does truth. So, who constructed them, when and why were they motivated to do so??

The same people who "constructed" Gods, religion, superstition etc..these have no evolutionary purpose either

Are you trying to say that any human activity, achievment, or emotion that does not have an obvious evolutionary purpose is de facto proof that there must be a God?

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:05 am

heavycola wrote:I don't have faith in God because I don't think He has all the answers, I have faith in science, because they might find the answers one day

I am saying that "constructs" that have no evolutionary purpose, but exist, make us question whether or not they were brought into existence by evolution. I don't think it is de facto proof that God exists, but it raises questions that pure naturalism cannot answer. So this is a little evidence on the God side.

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:10 am

No no no, i don't have faith in god because I don't believe he exists!

Answers would be nice, but they are not the be all and end all. Life before death, that's what I believe in. Anyway, belief in god as an answer to the great questions just raises more of them, IMO.

dewey316 · Post by **dewey316** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:47 am

Mr. NATE, you will never win this argument, it almost isn't worth it, but they won't win either, they can't prove God doesn't excist. I do commend you for being willing to be in the minority, and stand up for what you believe.

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:59 am

dewey316 wrote: Once you have held a small child who is infected with AIDS, and seen the hope in their eyes, that something as crazy as a "fairy-tale" like God, can bring them, you might start to understand.

I've felt the hope in God (when I was younger), and seen hope in God, but ultimately from an intellectual standpoint, I must reject belief in God.

False hope is not necessarily a bad thing though.

Bertros Bertros · Post by **Bertros Bertros** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:00 am

Hey dewey, I believe most people here aren't looking to win any argument just enjoy the debate. You are very right I can't prove to you God doesn't exist as much as you cannot prove to me God does, hence the consensus round here that agnosticism is the only truly accruate position.

I haven't held a child with AIDS and I have the greatest respect for you for having the conviction to do that which many of us only admire. The hope you bring to that child is a wonderful thing and one for which there is little comparable equal in terms of compassionate acts, but please do not confuse this with hope from God.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:09 am

MR. Nate wrote:As far as unicorns, leprechauns, minotaurs, etc, they are not incorrigable. That's generally known as the "Great Pumpkin" response to the argument.

I like how you just wave this away as silly. Please explain to me how a belief in leprechauns is any different than a belief in a supernatural puppeteer.

MR. Nate wrote:Midwest, check, religious family, check, youth group, check, pancake breakfasts, check.

This does not surprise me at all. Your blinders were installed the day you were born and your family molded you and told you "this is the way" since you could speak. You are now on the seminary road, and no doubt your family is extremely proud.

Similiarly, I see these poor kids in the airport every week in their black suits with "Elder Jones", etc on the name tag dutifully reading and studying their bibles as they travel somewhere to be missionaries, and I feel so sorry for them. I look at them no differently them the moonies that use to hand out flowers at LAX. They never had a chance.

You have joked before about the Matrix, and it's funny, I feel that way sometimes. Everyone walking around perfectly happy believing in a fantasy, while I have my veil lifted to see reality.

MR. Nate wrote:Since we're discussing backgrounds, backglass, were you raised by an agnostic family, or one that claimed to be religious but didn't actually practice?

Actually, the majority of my family (aunt/uncles/cousins, etc) are like you. Midwestern, pancake breakfast eating believers who think the answer to any of lifes problems is to just pray more. With all their religion however, they have more divorces, drugs, depression and affairs than my "non-religious" side of the family. BUT they have a god, so it's OK.

.

My immidiate family probably falls closer to the latter of your guesses, and as a result here I am. You probably see this as a failing by my parents, etc. I feel the opposite as my parents didnt force feed me christianity as a child and I was allowed to form my own opinions of religion. To everyones surprise, I just chose none at all.

Mr. Nate wrote:And would you care do defend your athiesm

Well...Unlike you, I dont go to athiest school to learn the finer points of atheistic debate; studying the comma placement of passages and the lineages of an ancient people, in order to better justify my non-belief. So can I prove to you that gods dont exist? Nope. Can I prove to you that I am not a Unicorn as you request? I guess not, so by your rules I lose.

I have no books, writings and ancient texts. I have no houses of worship, bibles, toras, korans, statues and crucifixes. I have no stories, teachings, witnesses or alters. Because at the root, I dont believe any of the world religions gods exist. You believe (I assume) in one god, and the other religions of the world are false. I agree and just go one step further and think yours is false as well.

I wish I could run down to the Athiest Tabernacle, whip out the "Big Book of Atheism" and quote you long elegant passages from ancient scholars about how this non-belief came to be, but as you know Atheism is not a religion, just non-belief. I have nothing but common sense and my own eyes/ears to back me up.

dewey316 · Post by **dewey316** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:18 am

Bertros Bertros wrote:The hope you bring to that child is a wonderful thing and one for which there is little comparable equal in terms of compassionate acts, but please do not confuse this with hope from God.

This is where the diffrence in views comes in. I don't beleive that it is anything I do. Most of the time, I can hardly handle myself, I honestly don't think it is anything I do. There is hope in the idea, that there is something more, beyond this life, and beyond the circumstances we are born into. If you worldview includes a figure that is greater than this world, it is easy to see this hope as God working. If your worldview doesn't have that, it is easy to think of it as man's doing.

I don't want to argue, I really don't. This whole view, is dependant on what each of us have seen in life. I do beleive that in my life, I have seen an active and living God. I am a resonably smart guy, and I read a ton of science, and am interested in it (I even read Hawkings), at the same time, I have witnessed things that are so out of this world, that the only explanation to me, is a God, who deaply loves his creation, and is calling his creation back to him.

Like everyone on both sides of this has said, there is no emperical evidence either way. The only thing that I can add to this, is this. Not all people who beleive in the God, are people who were raised that way, or had faith as a child. I would also like to add, that in my experiance, evil, actualy proves to me there is also a God, and a perfect God. Unlike the statement earlier, that tried to show that the execistance of evil, shows there is no God. The evil I have seen in this world, shows me a God who loves in creation so much, and is so perfect, that he can create evil at the same time, and KNOW, that he will win his creation back, and thus gave them free will.

I think I am getting a little off topic here. But, I think that it is important for people to see how God is very much working in this world. I do not beleive that the good being done by hundreds of thousands of people around the world, is not God. Take it for what you will, and I really wish that I could take some of you with me to Africa, as I said, once you are there, and see it, it is hard to deny a greater a power.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:36 am

dewey316 wrote:As for Backglass. I in fact found Christ while I was in prision.

Congratulations on turning your life around. If it took a belief in the supernatural to do it, fine. Evidently thats the crutch you needed to change. Good for you.

dewey316 wrote:Now, you can try all you want to try to play the who thinks he is smarter than everyone else, you may be, I don't know you.

Thats right, you dont.

dewey316 wrote:But, when you have been where I have been, and seen what I have seen, you could not tell me that there is not a God.

If you could open your eyes, you could not tell me there are magical gods.

dewey316 wrote:You seem to be the type of person who persives evil as being evidence that there is no God.

Well, thats one of the reasons, yes. Your man invented this, BUT has no control over it, because he wants you to fight your way to him? Makes perfect sense.

dewey316 wrote:I doubt you have any idea what is going on in this world beyond your own small area, and what you see on the news. I spend my summers in Nairobi, Kenya, working in the Mathare Slums. In a situation like that, it is imposible to NOT see God.

You are wrong my bible thumping friend. I have traveled to over 15 countries on four continents and seen a few of the worlds slums myself. I find it frightening that you see the existence of slums and suffering as proof that your god exists. Thats seriously twisted.

dewey316 wrote:I'm not going to argue with you, but I will be praying for you.

This doesnt surprise me. Thanks for stopping by. No prayer needed though...I dont need your cultish rituals to get me by.

dewey316 wrote: This is a big world, and a complex world. When you really start to explore it in way, other than what the western media has shown you, you can start to see that.

Now who is sterotyping? What, you think I am some babe in the woods because I wasnt stupid enough to go to PRISON?

I have seen more of this big world than you ever will and met many fine people in every country I visited. I have yet to meet any supernatural gods or men turning water into wine of any religion...although that would have been nice in Hungary because the beer sucked.

dewey316 wrote:Once you have held a small child who is infected with AIDS, and seen the hope in their eyes, that something as crazy as a "fairy-tale" like God, can bring them, you might start to understand.

I see. Does this make you feel all warm and gooshy inside? Like you somhow made a difference in the world by holding a dieing child in your arms and telling them fables? Hope in their eyes?! THE CHILD WAS DIEING. What you saw was pain & suffering.

NEWS FLASH: That child doesent need your fairy tales...it needs science and medicine and research into a CURE. Send your travel money next year to the AIDS foundation where it might do some actual good, because your magical god isnt doing JACK about the problem.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:39 am

dewey316 wrote:Like everyone on both sides of this has said, there is no emperical evidence either way. The only thing that I can add to this, is this. Not all people who beleive in the God, are people who were raised that way, or had faith as a child. I would also like to add, that in my experiance, evil, actualy proves to me there is also a God, and a perfect God. Unlike the statement earlier, that tried to show that the execistance of evil, shows there is no God. The evil I have seen in this world, shows me a God who loves in creation so much, and is so perfect, that he can create evil at the same time, and KNOW, that he will win his creation back, and thus gave them free will.

So he creates evil to trick us into believing in him. Is it just me or is this logic completely nonsensical?

And also, I hate to break it to you, but God didn't create good or evil. God is God, that's all. He encompasses it all and is all things at once. Humanity created the thought constructs of good and evil. Some probably model their constructs as god=good and satan=evil, however one must understand that it was we who came up with the concepts themselves. The same way we developed the ideas of truth, beauty, art, and so forth.

I think I am getting a little off topic here. But, I think that it is important for people to see how God is very much working in this world. I do not beleive that the good being done by hundreds of thousands of people around the world, is not God. Take it for what you will, and I really wish that I could take some of you with me to Africa, as I said, once you are there, and see it, it is hard to deny a greater a power.

So the people taking it upon themselves to do good in the world aren't actually doing anything, it's all God doing things through them?

Ever consider that maybe, just maybe, God is watching and smiling down upon these people as they do good. That He isn't using them as puppets to do what He wants to do? If I save a starving puppy from dying, it wasn't me who did it, it was God?

So by that logic when someone does something 'evil' then it's Satan's fault. BTK didn't kill those people, it was Satan working through him. He's not responsible. Let's let him out and have a priest exorcise Satan from his body.

Let's test out your line of logic here.