Waiting lackattack reply-Page 1-post 1

[Joodoo]

CC home of the juicy Lucy!!!

That actually made me more hungry.

[Dako]

That is a really uncomfortable situation.

What has been altered on your map without your knowledge?

[targetman377]

qwert that is scary and i would try to contact Andy he might be able to figure out the change. or he could at least contact lack on your behalf you then maybe lack will get back to you i really do not think he will answer his pms. But i do hope i am wrong about that

[blakebowling]

The change on the map (unless I'm missing another change) is a subtle one, and one made to the image only.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

The first image is the one live on CC, the second one is qwert's final image. If you look at the legends in the top right corner (about the gameplay objective), the text explaining how to hold it is different.

I understand why your upset qwert, as the agreement says you will be contacted before ANY changes are made, and with your activity and your commitment to the CC Foundry (not to mention the rest of CC), you should be respected a great mapmaker (even if I don't like the gameplay on your maps ).

[Dako]

Wow, that was a cruel thing to change it like that.

Hope that gets fixed - best of luck qwert.

[gimil]

3 days no reply from lack, its look that he also responsibile for these secret work.
Here you go first post page 1-letter to lackattack.

Except, if you would listen qwert, Lack does NOT recieve PM's from the CC community. Hench why you get no reply. He didn't reply because the PM never made it to his inbox.

I think if you want to compalin about a map change you go through the foundry folk who deal with maps or if you are having beef with the foundry folk post an eticket which is more likely to reach lack than a PM that the system will NOT put in his inbox.

[Metsfanmax]

Independent of whatever wrong may have been done to the mapmaker by not being contacted first, this doesn't seem as though it was a significant change. I understand that qwert ought to be upset on principle, but still...

[jpcloet]

I'd like to think that maybe the wrong map got uploaded or maybe lack moved a wrong file or folder. The facts are the map is different. But jumping to an accusation before getting all the facts is pretty lame. Hopefully Andy can bring this to a satisfying close.

[sherkaner]

3 days no reply from lack, its look that he also responsibile for these secret work.
Here you go first post page 1-letter to lackattack.

Except, if you would listen qwert, Lack does NOT recieve PM's from the CC community. Hench why you get no reply. He didn't reply because the PM never made it to his inbox.

I think if you want to compalin about a map change you go through the foundry folk who deal with maps or if you are having beef with the foundry folk post an eticket which is more likely to reach lack than a PM that the system will NOT put in his inbox.

There are a few people that can send Lack PM's, I know I can and maybe qwert can too (not sure though). But yeah, I agree it's better to go and talk to the foundry folk first.

[blakebowling]

3 days no reply from lack, its look that he also responsibile for these secret work.
Here you go first post page 1-letter to lackattack.

Except, if you would listen qwert, Lack does NOT recieve PM's from the CC community. Hench why you get no reply. He didn't reply because the PM never made it to his inbox.

I think if you want to compalin about a map change you go through the foundry folk who deal with maps or if you are having beef with the foundry folk post an eticket which is more likely to reach lack than a PM that the system will NOT put in his inbox.

There are a few people that can send Lack PM's, I know I can and maybe qwert can too (not sure though). But yeah, I agree it's better to go and talk to the foundry folk first.

I can as well, anyone that lack has on his friends list can send him PM's

[Qwert]

by gimil » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:48 pm

qwert wrote:
3 days no reply from lack, its look that he also responsibile for these secret work.
Here you go first post page 1-letter to lackattack.

Except, if you would listen qwert, Lack does NOT recieve PM's from the CC community. Hench why you get no reply. He didn't reply because the PM never made it to his inbox.

I think if you want to compalin about a map change you go through the foundry folk who deal with maps or if you are having beef with the foundry folk post an eticket which is more likely to reach lack than a PM that the system will NOT put in his inbox.

Probably you are not listen,what im write previous, i know for that message,but lack give me way,so that i can send hem messages(game finder error issue,not related with these situation).

Who to complain? Do you know who change these?

by jpcloet » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:07 pm

I'd like to think that maybe the wrong map got uploaded or maybe lack moved a wrong file or folder. The facts are the map is different. But jumping to an accusation before getting all the facts is pretty lame. Hopefully Andy can bring this to a satisfying close.

I realy dont know who made that,but these is not mine work, mine original work its in MAp topic, and someone take original map,and make changes. Its very hard to make mistake,if you use original maps.

[targetman377]

would you agree that the new version does explain more than your original version? this is keeping in mind that they had no right to do it without your knowledge

[gimil]

Probably you are not listen,what im write previous, i know for that message,but lack give me way,so that i can send hem messages(game finder error issue,not related with these situation).

Actually I was listening and trying to be helpful, you failed to mention that lack had given you access to his inbox.

[blakebowling]

Probably you are not listen,what im write previous, i know for that message,but lack give me way,so that i can send hem messages(game finder error issue,not related with these situation).

Actually I was listening and trying to be helpful, you failed to mention that lack had given you access to his inbox.

I can send message to lack, its story with game finder error, but these not have nothing with these situation. Still i dont want to reveal more informacion,i belive that he can fix that, and show more respect,then some of Moderators ( i dont know for sure who its responsibile for these behavior).

As much as I love you gimil.....

[Victor Sullivan]

I'd have thought MrBenn would be the person to go to, since he's the Foundry executive. You could try him, too

[gimil]

Probably you are not listen,what im write previous, i know for that message,but lack give me way,so that i can send hem messages(game finder error issue,not related with these situation).

Actually I was listening and trying to be helpful, you failed to mention that lack had given you access to his inbox.

I can send message to lack, its story with game finder error, but these not have nothing with these situation. Still i dont want to reveal more informacion,i belive that he can fix that, and show more respect,then some of Moderators ( i dont know for sure who its responsibile for these behavior).

As much as I love you gimil.....

I'll just toddle off to and put my head back in the hole it came out of them shall I

Sorry qwert.

[AndyDufresne]

Sherkaner is right that a few non-Team CC members have been, or still are, on Lack's PM list---because at one time or another he was trying to fix a bug and needed direct communication. Most likely, he's forgot to update his friend's list accordingly as bugs were resolved, since he notoriously forgets things like that.

So that issue of communication aside, as mentioned a few times earlier in the topic, the best route is to open up and E-ticket, since it keeps track of Official Correspondence, and is direct access to the administrators when issues/concerns are involved for things outside of the purview of our Team CC Volunteers (like some game bugs, static files, etc, on CC).

The issue with the Europe 1914 map is directly related to the Pelopennesian War map---both maps were subject to a large number of complaints and e-tickets from Community members who were concerned about the ambiguously described map Objectives which are used to win/finish a game. Admittedly, the instructions on the gameplay page are not very substantial (we're planning to update them soon to make them clearer and more accurately describe non-standard gameplay mechanics), and the intermediary solution has been to request fuller explanations on the map images where possible. With a potentially misleading/confusing instruction ("Capture") on both map images, a number of requests were made for qwert to update the map instructions and address the concerns of the Community, who were questioning why the map "wasn't working" or was "bugged."

The community and the CAs requested a number of times for qwert to update the maps to try and reflect more accurately the way the gameplay mechanic actually works on CC, by adding the text "Capture and hold for one round" to the maps. Following discussion with qwert about the legend of both maps both in public threads and over PM, it became clear that qwert was satisfied with his finished maps (and admittedly so, as the map making process is a long process, and it is nice to finally put the capstone in place).

Here is the decision about the Peloponnesian War map that was decided upon by the C.A.s and the Community, since qwert did not desire any fixes or adjustments to the map. The discussion about Europe 1914 was not so public, and PM correspondence resulted with qwert expressing satisfaction with his end-product, while we expressed that his maps could be made more clear by executing a minor graphics tweak--- rewording a sentence in the legend to include "and hold for one round" instead of just "capture." Qwert was informed in both cases that changes may be made to the maps, and it was decided by the admin/CAs to make a similar decision to that made for Pelopennesian War to add extra clarification in the form of a minor graphics tweak, so as to curtail the E-tickets and Q&A posts about the ambiguous/inaccurate wordings on these two maps.

We regret not properly corresponding with qwert once the adjustments were made---this was an error on our part in all of this. These changes were made with the best of intentions for the Community members that were involved with the request for changes (take a look at the map topics in the Viewing Gallery if you are interested), and with a desire to make sure that qwert's maps were the best they could be---living up to his talents as a mapmaker---and were as user-friendly as possible.

It should be noted that Europe 1914 and Pelopennesian War are not the only maps that have had minor amendments made to them in order to improve the quality and user-friendliness of the map---these amendments, "Touch-Ups," are usually small in nature so as to not require and massive or large scale "Revamps," as we have used in the past. In every case, it is standard practice to try and contact the original mapmaker (as some are no longer on the website, or only visit intermittently), and to make every effort to reach a consensus or agreement with the mapmaker before going forward with any small adjustments to improve the earlier mentioned quality and user-friendliness of the map.


--Andy

[Qwert]

i just check europe 1914 topic (im not been there from over one year) and i notice that 8 people speak abouth objectives( 8 people for 2 years).And just for record-you not post never for these 2 years in Europe 1914 topic- so what conversation we had there?
First ,you say that you contact me abouth Europe 1914-these is not true( i dont want to use other words),For 2 years,you never contact me, with question abouth Europe 1914, but its up to people to belive you or to belive me.
Second ,i dont have any view on e-ticket complains, but i think that you exareratte.
Third- You try to contact me before these change?
And try to check topic before give some informacion, after all you whas Foundry foreman,when these map be quenched.
And i dont understand why you mix Peloponnesian war with Europe 1914 ? Using not original fonts(who its blurr) will not improve map, but these hepend when you not contact map maker,and work in secret.
Why its hard to annonce map changes? Do you not cross in your mind,that these can have effect on active games, and that people who are not "aware" of gameplay objective, suddenly realised that game its change?

[MrBenn]

i just check europe 1914 topic (im not been there from over one year) and i notice that 8 people speak abouth objectives( 8 people for 2 years).And just for record-you not post never for these 2 years in Europe 1914 topic- so what conversation we had there?
First ,you say that you contact me abouth Europe 1914-these is not true( i dont want to use other words),For 2 years,you never contact me, with question abouth Europe 1914, but its up to people to belive you or to belive me.
Second ,i dont have any view on e-ticket complains, but i think that you exareratte.
Third- You try to contact me before these change?
And try to check topic before give some informacion, after all you whas Foundry foreman,when these map be quenched.
And i dont understand why you mix Peloponnesian war with Europe 1914 ? Using not original fonts(who its blurr) will not improve map, but these hepend when you not contact map maker,and work in secret.
Why its hard to annonce map changes? Do you not cross in your mind,that these can have effect on active games, and that people who are not "aware" of gameplay objective, suddenly realised that game its change?

Let me respond here:

There was no discussion in the map thread, because you have made it perfectly clear that there is no point having discussion with you in the foundry forums; you removed yourself from the foundry in April 2009 and have failed to engage in discussion with any CC member in any foundry thread since this time. Since you have now broken your silence (albeit in GD rather than Foundry Discussions where some would argue this thread may be better placed), let me respond to your specific points you raised - albeit that I'll assume they are directed at Andy rather than myself.
1. I had an exchange of PMs with you a long time ago about the wording of the map legends for both Pelopennesian War and Europe 1914; this occurred at some point between taking over the Foreman Role, and definitely before I acquired this laptop, which would put it at some point between August 2009 and late January this year.
2. I don't have access to the e-ticket system, but would assume that it would have been enough to warrant a request from the admins that I speak with you again about the two maps in question.
3. See #1, and the apology from Andy that we neglected to let you know the change had been made, as per previous communication.
4. According to the Foundry Gallery Index, Europe 1914 was Quenched on Dec 27th 2008. The version with the amended version went live at some point in Febraury 2010.
5. The issues with Pelopennesian War and Europe 1914 are both to do with improving the clarity of the legend. Since you were uncooperative with the foundry system, it was not possible to ascertain which typefaces you used on each map, and so the nearest possible alternative, or one keeping with the style of the map was substituted. If you wish to improve the quality further (and use the original typeface), then I would encourage you again to make an amendment to the legend text on your original files and provide an update to the relevant map development thread.
6. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this last point? The user experience was foremost in our minds when the adjusted legend was requested. There was no change to the gameplay of the map at all, and if people were "unaware" of the objective prior to the update, surely that must be a deficiency of the original version? You cite 8 people who have made complaints about the map objective in your map thread - none of these were made after the updated version went live. Since this time I have also been led to believe that the number of e-tickets received by the admins relating to this issue has also diminished (although as already mentioned, I cannot verify this point).

[Crazyirishman]

This situation has CC conspiracy written all over it.

[Qwert]

One day,when Foundry get CA like Cairnswk and Coleman, foundry system will be much,much better. Large number of map maker are not satisfy with foundry system, but these is not mine problem anymore.
Sorry MrBeen, but you wrong-we had conversation abouth Peloponnesian war, but we dont speak abouth Europe 1914. Like i say,its up to people to belive you or me, but you and Andy have mayority on your side, so for me its hard to defend mine position.
Any how,if you dont want to show any respect to me, just please,next time try to find 30 second to just send at least how its possible short note "We change map """"""".
And please no more secret changes,try to find another 30 second to post changes in topic,so that people know what you doing. If you want,i can remove all original maps,so that people dont be confused,when you change something.
Do i ask to much from you?

[owenshooter]

This situation has CC conspiracy written all over it.

no, it is kind of just the way things have been around here since Twill left... the mantra of, "do as we say, not as we do, and we are above the law and if you don't like it just leave or we'll make up an excuse to ban you for half a year," is getting old... HOWEVER, andy shows some true grace with his mia culpa:

We regret not properly corresponding with qwert once the adjustments were made---this was an error on our part in all of this. These changes were made with the best of intentions for the Community members that were involved with the request for changes (take a look at the map topics in the Viewing Gallery if you are interested), and with a desire to make sure that qwert's maps were the best they could be---living up to his talents as a mapmaker---and were as user-friendly as possible.

i think Q-dawg should accept this apology and move on. perhaps he could have a discussion with andy and mr. benn about his problems with the changes... either way, i think andy did the right thing and you will rarely see an admission like this from team CC... maybe this situation has opened team CC's eyes... or maybe i'm still high from last night... who knows?...-the black jesus

[Fruitcake]

This situation has CC conspiracy written all over it.

no, it is kind of just the way things have been around here since Twill left... the mantra of, "do as we say, not as we do, and we are above the law and if you don't like it just leave or we'll make up an excuse to ban you for half a year," is getting old... HOWEVER, andy shows some true grace with his mia culpa:

We regret not properly corresponding with qwert once the adjustments were made---this was an error on our part in all of this. These changes were made with the best of intentions for the Community members that were involved with the request for changes (take a look at the map topics in the Viewing Gallery if you are interested), and with a desire to make sure that qwert's maps were the best they could be---living up to his talents as a mapmaker---and were as user-friendly as possible.

i think Q-dawg should accept this apology and move on. perhaps he could have a discussion with andy and mr. benn about his problems with the changes... either way, i think andy did the right thing and you will rarely see an admission like this from team CC... maybe this situation has opened team CC's eyes... or maybe i'm still high from last night... who knows?...-the black jesus

Maybe I am not seeing it, but I don't actually see an apology. I see some one writing that they regret an action, but this is far removed from an apology. But then again, in the new whacky world of cc perhaps this is what now passes for such.

[the.killing.44]

Gotta love the O JESUS CC TAKIN OVER YO uninformed responses here.

and the fat it's quert just makes it all the better.

[Qwert]

"Fruitcake
Maybe I am not seeing it, but I don't actually see an apology. I see some one writing that they regret an action, but this is far removed from an apology. But then again, in the new whacky world of cc perhaps this is what now passes for such."

I dont ask for apology,because i dont expect to get apology(actualy when you check Andy post,you will find only words regret and sorry,but no apology). Probably they regret, that i discover how they work, and who knows how many maps are change in these way. Maybe one day, they will be more open to community, and will much more announce what they have in mind.
Now what its left,that Andy go to Europe 1914 topic,and finaly after 2 years post,and announce that they made change on map, i think that these will be satisfactory for all.