Conquer Club

It would be simple enough to add a clause to the rules which states that any alliance must be declared in English or in a language all players understand, as realistically it isn't fair to expect people to converse in English all the time especially if their English is shaky and their Ukrainian is fluent. If it isn't declared in English (or a language everyone understands if, for example, it is an all-Dutch game) then it should be considered a secret alliance.

Nephilim wrote:ok. the force of my point does not depend on the previous statements in this thread, but on the arguments which i make. first off, the ban on secret alliances is, in fact, not enforceable. no one polices private messages. there is really very little way to know that a private alliance has occurred. the only feasible way to protect oneself from secret alliances is to watch the cheaters forum and ignore people who often get accused of doing it.

yes, of course english is the common language here. but so the f*ck what? why should we prohibit, for example, two ukrainians who stumble into a game from speaking in their much more comfortable native tongue? so that a few (anglocentric) people can feel a little more secure?

i say f*ck that. liberty over security. bad cases make bad law, and you, my friend, have a bad case. let's not try to make law out of it. and ultimately, something as simple as babelfish ruined there sneaky little move, and i'm hoping you're not the only person here smart enough to use that tool. cheating in another language is still cheating, and there are far easier ways to catch it and prevent it than banning languages other than the english. your proposal is reactionary and censorious, and a precursor to nationalist fascism. oooo, i sound so serious!!

it's not feasible to ban languages or limit game chat to a common language. it's not necessary, it won't prevent cheating at all, and it reeks of lots of bad ideas. we might as well ban pm's, im's, and emails. just relax.

I've not read this whole posting, only skimmed. but it would be really silly to force people to use Ukrainian in the game chat, whether they speak Ukrainian or not.

Oh wait, now I've actually read what you posted and I see that you never actually said we should force people to use Ukrainian in the game chat, not that my point in any way depends on your previous statement, but instead just on the argument I make. Ok the force of my point doesn't really rest on anything, in fact, wait a minute... yes, it's actually disappeared now.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

1.

The ban on secret alliances is unenforceable.

So, the activity on the cheater's forum isn't happening, players aren't being punished for violating the no secret alliances rule?

2.

No one polices private messages.

You know this how? Because it's called a "private message?" You know those emails you read and write while at work, no one can see those either. I should expect that when an investigation in cheating is launched one of the things looked at are the private messages sent during the game in question.

3.

The only feasible way to protect oneself from secret alliances is to watch the cheaters forum and ignore people who often get accused of doing it.

That sounds like an enforcement mechanism to me.

4.

Why should we prohibit, for example, two ukrainians who stumble into a game from speaking in their much more comfortable native tongue?

First, I know several Ukrainians and on several occasions that I recall they were not drunk and did not stumble.

Second, I don't think anyone said we should prohibit two Ukrainians from speaking in their native tongue, or even in Ukrainian for that matter. Prohibiting two Bangladeshis from speaking Urdu, there I can support you, especially if one of them stumbles into a game.

Third, if I think the two fictional Ukrainians have a secret alliance and they have conversed in Swahili (or any other language than English) during a game, then yes, I'm going to leave them negative feedback and I'm going to report them to the cheaters forum. Sorry, but I don't believe their comfort in conversing in their native tongue (or any other tongue than English) trumps the integrity of the game. If they really want to converse with each other during the game about something not related to the game then that's a perfect use of private messages. If they want to talk about the game in a language other than English in the game chat, then no, that's not acceptable to me.

5.

i say [@#%$!] that. liberty over security. bad cases make bad law, and you, my friend, have a bad case. let's not try to make law out of it.

Liberty without security is called anarchy. I'm not talking about establishing a new law, I'm saying if someone is going to engage in certain behavior and voilate an existing law (no secret alliances), then there are going to be consequences which I outlined in 4 above. How is it a bad case? Where is the law that is being proposed?

6.

Ultimately, something as simple as babelfish ruined there sneaky little move, and i'm hoping you're not the only person here smart enough to use that tool.

I should have to use babelfish on a site where you state "of course english is the common language here?" Maybe it's the people who don't feel comfortable writing in English who are the ones who should be using babelfish.

7.

cheating in another language is still cheating, and there are far easier ways to catch it and prevent it than banning languages other than the english.

Would you care to mention one of those ways to catch and prevent cheating that are far easier? Once again, I haven't called on languages other than English to be banned, just outlined what the consequences of using a language other than English to cover up cheating will be in my response to point 4 above.

8.

your proposal is reactionary and censorious, and a precursor to nationalist fascism. oooo, i sound so serious!!

Believe it or not you don't really sound all that serious. I'd be a lot more concerned if I thought you actually knew the meaning of any of those words, but I can't sustain that presumption no matter how hard I try.

9.

it's not feasible to ban languages or limit game chat to a common language. it's not necessary, it won't prevent cheating at all, and it reeks of lots of bad ideas. we might as well ban pm's, im's, and emails. just relax.

Well, you're stilll not sounding very serious, but now I know I can relax. Thanks.

Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Cynthia wrote::roll: Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote::roll: Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Cad é sin i mBearla le do thoill?

Guiscard wrote:It would be simple enough to add a clause to the rules which states that any alliance must be declared in English or in a language all players understand, as realistically it isn't fair to expect people to converse in English all the time especially if their English is shaky and their Ukrainian is fluent. If it isn't declared in English (or a language everyone understands if, for example, it is an all-Dutch game) then it should be considered a secret alliance.

A very sensible proposal.

I don't think anyone is objecting to game chat in which Dutch is used in a game in which all the players speak Dutch. In that game Dutch is the common language.

Your proposal captures the distinction quite nicely.

Just curious about the poll results...

Those people voting "other (I don't like any of the options)," what would you have to say about the topic?

I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

O leiaf mae 'na llawer o iaethoedd yn cael ei siarad yma yn awr. Beth sydd nesaf, tybed?

Kahless wrote:

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote::roll: Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Cad é sin i mBearla le do thoill?

Well, the only thing I can say to that would be this:

이것이 나의 점을 시험한다 것 을 나는 생각한다.

Welcome to the Tower of Babel.

... You cannot possibly discriminate against folks who want to talk to each other, regardless of language. And if you don't understand what they're saying, just watch the flow of the game and keep your eyes open for suspicious attacks / non-attacks / forts and what not.

... Hell, 1 out 4 people on the planet speak Chinese. Anybody want to try to make them all speak English? (though not too many Chinese players at the moment).

... Do Chinese characters work in the chat box or the boards? Let's check...

.... これ読めるか？文字ばけになるかなぁ？

... seems to work alright! Cool.

What about Ulster Scots? Is that close enough to English to qualify?

Kahless wrote:

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote::roll: Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Cad é sin i mBearla le do thoill?

Jeg forstår ikke hva dere sier..?

Cynthia wrote:

Kahless wrote:

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote::roll: Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Cad é sin i mBearla le do thoill?

Jeg forstår ikke hva dere sier..?

Det er fordi du er en noe ut over det normale kvinne.

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote:

Kahless wrote:

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote::roll: Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Cad é sin i mBearla le do thoill?

Jeg forstår ikke hva dere sier..?

Det er fordi du er en noe ut over det normale kvinne.

Lol, så jeg er unormal?
du snakker norsk

X'qed tghidu hawn? Ma nista' nifhem xejn bin-Norvegiz, Galliku u l-lingwi l-ohra. Pero intom mhux ha tifmuni nikteb bil-Malti anqas!

shitta is the only Maltese word I know, Ruben Cesar. Good job you don't need to say it much in Malta

I say that Nephilim is dead on. I think that there is a HUGE difference between 'secret' and 'not English'. The difference between a message in secret code and in a non-Engish language is that anyone has access to interpreting a non-English language while secret code is only accessible to those with the necessary key. The argument that everyone should speak in English just because most (nearly all) communication on this site is done in English is ridiculous to me. If I were a foreign language speaker, it would also be offensive to me, frankly. I see no reason why players shouldn't be able to communicate with each other in non-English languages. If people want to be in games where only English is spoken, then they should restrict themselves to games with players from English-speaking nations. That's obviously no guarantee, but I would much rather see an addition of languages spoken to the profiles or something like that than a RULE that all communication or alliances must be discussed in English.

Cynthia wrote:

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote:

Kahless wrote:

tahitiwahini wrote:

Cynthia wrote::roll: Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Cad é sin i mBearla le do thoill?

Jeg forstår ikke hva dere sier..?

Det er fordi du er en noe ut over det normale kvinne.

Lol, så jeg er unormal?
du snakker norsk

Meg Norsk er verre enn meg Gaelic!

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú.

JEG mente å si det du er en meget spesiell kvinne , ikke en abnormal ettall.

Nå Jeg vil gå tilbake til Engelske , der hvor JEG er pengeskap.

well, i'm not too excited about responding here, b/c in your last long post, tahiti, you showed some very flawed reasoning in almost every point. so engaging in an argument w/ you is probably pointless.

but i must say: in that long post, you said that you aren't advocating a new law. this confuses me. everything that i have said is based, naturally, on your original post in this thread and the poll you set up. your poll and your first comments propose that any language besides english should be banned in game chat unless all game players speak the second language. this is a proposal for a new rule on CC, is it not? am i misunderstanding you?

that idea is what i am critiquing. i construed it to be your proposal. is that what you meant? here's the first post:

tahitiwahini wrote:I would think the answer should be no, because otherwise it would be too easy to set up secret alliances, thereby running afoul of the rules.

However, I guess if all the players in the game speak a language other than English, and no one objected, then it should be OK.

so in order to enforce the rules properly, we have to ban any language besides english, unless everyone knows the 2nd language. reactionary, eh?

Nephilim wrote:well, i'm not too excited about responding here, b/c in your last long post, tahiti, you showed some very flawed reasoning in almost every point. so engaging in an argument w/ you is probably pointless.

If I had to defend your position I wouldn't be too excited either. The post stands on it's own, your refusal to rebut stands on its own too.

I didn't know it was "reactionary" to post a poll question. Nor did I think it was "reactionary" to express an opinion on the poll question and provide the game chat of a relevant application of that opinion in practice.

I made no proposal, simply asked people for their opinions on the subject. Then I read the opinions that were expressed (giving extra weight to those people who did more than skim the thread) and further contemplated my opinion on the issue. I then saw the response from Guiscard and it nicely encapsulated my thoughts on the issue, so I responded saying I thought his was a good idea. If this is how a "reactionary" operates I'll have to rethink whether I accept the usual negative connotations associated with the word.

In my reply to you, I went on to describe how I would apply my ideas to a game situation as described in the first post. I never called for a language ban, I simply described what I would do if I suspected that players in a game I was in were subverting an existing rule by arranging a secret alliance in a language other than English. I think that's entirely consistent with adopting Guiscard's proposal. My position however, requires no additional rule to be promulgated. It's simply sets forth my approach to dealing with the problem (should it arise) using the existing rules and enforcement mechanism.

You're well within your rights to label such a postion as "reactionary" regardless of how silly it makes you look. An added benefit to labeling something as "reactionary" is that you don't have to write a long post detailing your argument. It's kind of like an intellectual shorthand, and worthy of about the same respect.

Like Nephilim, I just skimmed this thread because there is that much shit to wade through. So, my opinion is that it would be unfair to discriminate between those who speak English and those who do not. They are entitled to their language just as we are. Is conquer club not an international website or am I mistaken?

Also, technically it is not a secret alliance if it has been announced in game chat - you should try to learn the language if you're that bothered!

I agree with Nephilim that your reasoning is extremely flawed - how on earth do you argue that someone should speak a different language just for your benefit. That only implies when one is abroad in a foreign country, but I state once again that this is an international website!

I have only said about half of what I would like here (brain is dead after a hard day of school and people don't read the half of very long posts anyway!). So, in short, you are wrong! Go away and play private games instead please! You are discriminating against other languages - not quite racism I admit but it is not very nice either!

P.S. I am from Northern Ireland, which is filled with bigots and even I can't support your point of view.

RobinJ wrote:Like Nephilim, I just skimmed this thread because there is that much shit to wade through. So, my opinion is that it would be unfair to discriminate between those who speak English and those who do not. They are entitled to their language just as we are. Is conquer club not an international website or am I mistaken?

It seems that those who disagree the most with my position are the very ones who can't be bothered to read the complete thread, just skim it. I guess that demonstrates one's progressive mindset and welcoming attitude toward diverse opinions.

Thankfully, although they don't have the time to read the complete thread (too many words to wade through), they do have the time to share their opinons by composing a response. LOL

As a "reactionary" and a "bigot," I find that I am unpersuaded by the arguments advanced by you and Nephilim. Probably because I suffer from a character flaw whereby I actually try to understand someone's argument before I criticize it. I also find argumentation about a issue more enlightening than having a contest about who can throw out more of the same tired epithets that pass for reasoned discourse so often these days. You're giving an entirely new meaning to the phrase "reactionary bigot." Congratulations and keep up the good work.

P.S. I don't take offence at anything you said. It wouldn't be worth the effort. I'll just take my place in the queue of the people you disparage which apparently includes a great many people from Northern Ireland.

I read the entire thread, and I still agree with Nephilim and Robin. Apparently, I, like you Tahiti, am lacking in better things to do with my time.

Also, I wonder why a person would start a poll only to vehemently and sometimes insultingly argue with those who don't support their point of view. If all you're after is affirmation of your opinion, why not just set up a poll where all the answers agree with you. Then you always win!

tahitiwahini wrote
Kahless wrote:
tahitiwahini wrote:
Cynthia wrote:
Man må jo få lov til å snakke sitt eget språk

Kako se ovaj unaprijediti jasan sporazum?

Its strange?What translator you use to translate these?