Whodunnit? [19 Apr 2014] v10, p10 - Gameplay

[natty dread]

Guys, have some patience... the mods will get to the thread when they can.

Also... have you submitted a design brief?

[degaston]

Guys, have some patience... the mods will get to the thread when they can.

Also... have you submitted a design brief?

I'm not trying to complain (too much) , but I did submit a design brief almost 4 weeks ago and hadn't heard anything about it yet. So it seemed to me that since I've seen only positive comments about the general concept of the game, and all the other comments are about game-play and graphics issues, that it was ready to be moved out of the drafting room. Anyway, I won't say anything more about that.

I'm working on an update to the fonts and legend that should be a big improvement.

[degaston]

Version 1.5 changes:

1. New legend
2. Changed objective to only require weapon and suspect (along with crime scene room and the motive), not evidence and interrogation rooms.
3. Changed objective to exclude weapons and suspects from combining with rooms they are assaulted from.
4. Slight reduction in police station bonuses.
5. Returned to 2 digit circles.
6. New font for map room names and territory identifiers.

Click image to enlarge.

Under consideration:
Removing the paths within the rooms and allowing any room territory to attack any other in the same room.

Comments on the changes are welcome.

[koontz1973]

I love this map and the new legend but a question for you....

How do you see it playing out?

With only 26 starting positions that leaves only 3 territs per player for large games (8 players) that is not a lot if you allow all areas to attack each other in rooms. (Very bad for quad/triple games).

In one v one games you also have a problem with players able to clear a room quickly, thus able to fort any one room.

With the winning conditions (which are not on the map yet) people will get to know them very fast by playing a couple of games, thus making it easy to farm newer players.

Gaining access to the police station from any room is not to big a problem for players as the neutrals are so low (again a problem in larger team games). If I hold the foyer for a bonus of 4, it only costs me an extra 6 armies to get to the right suspect. And from there, it is only a couple more to get to the weapon.

Something to think about, and I know this would require you to do a big change is getting rid of the police station completely. Turning that area into a garden, more rooms and then spread around the weapons and suspects into different rooms. You can then use your fingers and magnifying glasses to signify the winning combos. Example, place the pickaxe into the garage and Mr Pink into the bedroom, forcing any player to move into those two rooms for that combo.

[degaston]

I love this map and the new legend but a question for you....

How do you see it playing out?

Thanks for the comments.

I imagine that typical game-play would start with controlling one or more rooms (depending on the number of starting players), followed by moving into the evidence and interrogation rooms. From there it would be a matter of securing and increasing your own bonuses while preventing your opponents from doing the same. Eventually, someone becomes strong enough to either kill their opponents, or take the motive and hold it along with some valid combination for the win.

Strategy will involve deciding which territories and rooms to control to get the most protection from the troops you have. There are many ways to move around the map, and it will probably be difficult to build enough strength so that you can hold a winning objective.

With only 26 starting positions that leaves only 3 territs per player for large games (8 players) that is not a lot if you allow all areas to attack each other in rooms. (Very bad for quad/triple games).

In one v one games you also have a problem with players able to clear a room quickly, thus able to fort any one room.

I agree that allowing free-for-all attacks in each room would probably cause problems. I only brought it up because I feel like the attack paths detract somewhat from the look of the game, and with a free-for-all in each room, I could eliminate most, if not all, of the paths. I may try to switch to shoe-print paths once everything else is settled.

1v1 games may not work well because there will be so many winning combinations that it will probably just become a contest to see who can hold the motive. I'm not too concerned with that because I suspect that a lot of maps don't work well with 2 players, and for that matter, neither does "Clue".

With the winning conditions (which are not on the map yet) people will get to know them very fast by playing a couple of games, thus making it easy to farm newer players.

All the winning combinations can be determined from the map the way it is.

1. The investigation form says "Objective: Control a Crime Scene Room, a valid Weapon and Suspect, and "The Motive" to win the game." (Though I intend to change that text to "Objective: Solve the crime by controlling a Crime Scene room, a valid Weapon and Suspect, and "The Motive".

2. The post-it says "Suspects have left false clues at the crime scene. You can not solve the crime using the room they came from."

What this means is that, for example, the Chainsaw may not be used to form a winning objective with the Garage because the Chainsaw link appears in the Garage. Any other weapon will work with the Garage, and any other room (except the Foyer because it also has a Chainsaw link) will work with the Chainsaw.

I realize that this requires a little deductive reasoning, and may be a bit confusing to first time players. But careful reading and one or two times playing should make it obvious to most people. This map may not be for everybody, but from the responses I've seen so far, it may be just what some people are looking for.

I included a chart a few posts back that showed all the winning combinations, but I would prefer not to have something like that on that map. For those who don't like complications it would probably still be confusing and it would ruin the whole concept of an investigation. If anyone can think of a way to word it that would get the point across better, I'd be happy to hear it.

Gaining access to the police station from any room is not to big a problem for players as the neutrals are so low (again a problem in larger team games). If I hold the foyer for a bonus of 4, it only costs me an extra 6 armies to get to the right suspect. And from there, it is only a couple more to get to the weapon.

I didn't want gaining access to the Police Station to be too difficult, but with three borders for each weapon and suspect, two of which are one-way assaults, it may be difficult to protect them adequately. Option 1 is to put a lot of troops on the weapon or suspect. This leaves them open to attacks from three directions, and any troops there can not get back to the crime scene if they are needed. Option 2 is to control both assault points in the crime scene and the entrance to the police station room. This spreads out your troops more and they cannot support each other easily.

Something to think about, and I know this would require you to do a big change is getting rid of the police station completely. Turning that area into a garden, more rooms and then spread around the weapons and suspects into different rooms. You can then use your fingers and magnifying glasses to signify the winning combos. Example, place the pickaxe into the garage and Mr Pink into the bedroom, forcing any player to move into those two rooms for that combo.

Though I don't entirely understand what you're thinking here, my gut feeling is that this would remove a lot of what makes this map unique. If others think this is the way to go, I can consider it more, but it's not my preferred direction.

[degaston]

Version 1.6 changes:

1. Updated legend

Click image to enlarge.

[degaston]

Version 1.7 is just a minor update to the legend graphics and text.

Click image to enlarge.

Don't know what else to do here. Can't tell if anyone still has any issues with the graphics or game-play.

[Immortalis XS]

The notepad is confusing. I would re-phrase it to this:

Suspects have left false clues (picture of pointing finger, magnifying glass) in the crime scene rooms.


Holding only clues that reside in the room that you control will not lead you to the real criminal!
OR
Your clues must reside in a different scene room than the one you control in order to solve the case.

[Industrial Helix]

Ok... I'm loving this one in concept but there are a few clarity issues that need tackling.

The motive: I think you want to say -3 decay, +5 bonus.

The next biggest concern is how well the small version is going to fit. The large map is already pretty tight, I wonder if you might benifit from supersize.

[degaston]

The motive: I think you want to say -3 decay, +5 bonus.

The next biggest concern is how well the small version is going to fit. The large map is already pretty tight, I wonder if you might benifit from supersize.

I'll change deploy to decay in my next version.

It would be nice to have a bit more room to work with - especially on the small map. Does this mean I have approval to supersize it?

The notepad is confusing. I would re-phrase it to this:

Suspects have left false clues (picture of pointing finger, magnifying glass) in the crime scene rooms.

Holding only clues that reside in the room that you control will not lead you to the real criminal!
OR
Your clues must reside in a different scene room than the one you control in order to solve the case.

How about:

Suspects have planted false clues ([finger],[mag glass]) in the Crime Scene rooms.

Don't be fooled! These clues only lead to invalid solutions.

// followed by one of these: (can't decide how best to phrase it)
Any other Weapon and Suspect will help to solve the case.
Any other Weapon and Suspect will work to solve the case.
Use any other Weapon and Suspect to solve the case.
Control any other Weapon and Suspect to solve the case.
All other Weapons and Suspects are valid.
All other Weapons and Suspects will work.

[carlpgoodrich]

Holding only clues that reside in the room that you control will not lead you to the real criminal!
OR
Your clues must reside in a different scene room than the one you control in order to solve the case.

These are pretty good. What about:

Evidence cannot be combined with the rooms in which they appear. All other combinations are valid.

In the explanation of the objective, you use the words "valid combination," I think the word valid needs to appear on the notepad.

[Industrial Helix]

Well... if you go supersize, you have up to 1000x800 pixels on the small map. I would say, make the small map and use what extra size you need.

[degaston]

Well... if you go supersize, you have up to 1000x800 pixels on the small map. I would say, make the small map and use what extra size you need.

I'm working on a major update and was planning to use my current map size (840x800) as the small map, and going to around 1050x1000 for a large map.

[Industrial Helix]

ok, I giveth thee permission to make a supersizeth large map.

[degaston]

ok, I giveth thee permission to make a supersizeth large map.

By your leave, Your Grace. Mayest thine enemies be blown to tiny bits.

[MrBenn]

There's a lot of wasted (ie non-territory) space to this map. I'd actually concentrate on

a) trying to make better use of the space you have got
b) making it clearer/easier to work out what is going on
c) adding more territories

That said, this is a promising start, but at a first glance shows more glitz than substance (ie it looks great, but I would prefer the gameplay to be something really special )

[degaston]

Thanks for the response, but I'm a little confused by it.

There's a lot of wasted (ie non-territory) space to this map. I'd actually concentrate on

a) trying to make better use of the space you have got

Does this mean I should not be going to a super-sized map? That seems to be what is implied by this, but it's not actually stated. I assume the Foundry Foreman outranks the Cartography Assistant, but I don't have a hierarchy chart on this.

But as for the substance of the statement, here's the map without all the glitz:

Click image to enlarge.

Personally, I don't see a lot of wasted space there. In fact, it looks pretty well distributed to me. I am working on making the rooms a little bigger and the hallways a little narrower, but other than that I think the space that I have is being used pretty well. If you could give me a little more detail about how you would like to see the space used, that would be helpful.

b) making it clearer/easier to work out what is going on

I will continue to try to make the legend more clear, and would appreciate any suggestions in this area. Earlier versions of the legend, spelled things out more directly, but that was justifiably described as "bland". I thought the current version was more interesting and presented the overall theme better, though it does take bit more effort to understand. And not that it excuses anything here, but have you seen Forbidden City? I think there are several maps out there already that are more confusing than mine.

c) adding more territories

101 territories isn't enough? To paraphrase Mozart, I think "there are just as many territories as there should be." This suggestion also seems somewhat at odds with b), as more territories would probably not help the clarity of the map. But if you still think it needs more, please let me know how many you think there should be and I can try to work them in.

That said, this is a promising start, but at a first glance shows more glitz than substance (ie it looks great, but I would prefer the gameplay to be something really special )

Please take more than a first glance, then. I'm not trying to be snarky, but I feel like there's a lot of "substance" in this map and a plenty of opportunity for varied play. There might be problems with the game-play - non-linear maps with one-way assaults, decays, escalating bonuses, and potential bottlenecks are more difficult to look at and "know" where the problem areas are going to be. I'd like to work on a game-play testing application, but it seems most appropriate as a web app and I'm primarily a windows developer. Might be a good way to get into that side of things.

I'm still working on another update, but it may be a little while - life gets in the way sometimes.

[carlpgoodrich]

I think MrBenn was referring to the fact that the hallways and the Motive take up a lot of space. The hallways could be MUCH skinnier, and by moving the motive somewhere else, you could add a whole extra room.

[MrBenn]

Part of the "more territories" thing, was that in the game there are a lot of little squares to move around between the rooms. While you have got elements of things in each room, you could add more territories to "move around" in. While you do need to be collecting items within each room, I think adding more spaces in the corridors (that could start with single neutrals) would help to make it feel more like the game.

I was not criticising the graphics in any way - I am actually a fan of the style

My comment about "wasted space" is that the map feels quite spread out... As carl suggested, making the motive smaller would enable you to fit in some more spaces' I'd also like to see a bit less regularity (ie if you can move away from a 3x3 grid for the house, then I would strongly encourage that) - you could add a closet, maybe even a second (small) bedroom?

--I' haven;t had a detailed look over the gameplay but will pop back with some thoughts at some point soon... I'll have to re-read things, but the objective/victory condition needs to be made a lot clearer - and we also need to start thinking about the ease with which it can be accomplished etc.

[MrBenn]

Oh, I meant to post this fun image I found:

Click image to enlarge.

[degaston]

I think MrBenn was referring to the fact that the hallways and the Motive take up a lot of space. The hallways could be MUCH skinnier, and by moving the motive somewhere else, you could add a whole extra room.

Okay, if I take 12 pixels from each hallway (so that 2-digit army numbers just barely fit), that adds 8 pixels to the width and height of each room. In the Media room, for example, that would give about 2 extra pixels between each of the blue chairs. Personally, I think that's not a big enough difference to make up for the more "claustrophobic" feeling the narrow hallways give me, but if that's what people want, I could go with it. Here's the two scenarios from the latest crime scene update, with a few new army "circles" added to the narrow hallways for a gauge:

wide/old hallways:

Click image to enlarge.

narrow/new hallways:

Click image to enlarge.

I know the original game has 9 rooms, but it seemed to me that eight is enough. Does it really need another room? If so, why? And where else do you suggest I put the Motive?

[degaston]

Part of the "more territories" thing, was that in the game there are a lot of little squares to move around between the rooms. While you have got elements of things in each room, you could add more territories to "move around" in. While you do need to be collecting items within each room, I think adding more spaces in the corridors (that could start with single neutrals) would help to make it feel more like the game.

Though I agree that having more spaces in the hallways would make it feel more like the board game, I'd like to know how you think the game-play would be enhanced by doing that? As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not trying to re-create the board game - I'm just using it as a starting point/theme that I hoped a lot of people would be familiar with and interested in. My goal was to have the game-play be less rigid than a "classic" style map, but not as wide-open as something like Oasis or Hive. I think that between the secret passages and the auto-decay hallways I may have achieved that, so I'm not sure how adding more hallway spaces would make the game better.

I was not criticising the graphics in any way - I am actually a fan of the style

Thanks, I was trying to create something that hadn't been seen here before.

My comment about "wasted space" is that the map feels quite spread out... As carl suggested, making the motive smaller would enable you to fit in some more spaces' I'd also like to see a bit less regularity (ie if you can move away from a 3x3 grid for the house, then I would strongly encourage that) - you could add a closet, maybe even a second (small) bedroom?

Yes, visually, it's very "regular", but that doesn't make the game-play symmetric like Chinese Checkers or Conquer 4. I prefer to consider it a "clean, simple" look that hopefully won't be too intimidating so that people will be willing to put in a little effort to understand the rules. If there's a problem with the game-play, then, of course, it needs to be changed. But I'd like to have a good reason for adding more spaces other than just because it's possible to cram a few more in.

--I' haven;t had a detailed look over the gameplay but will pop back with some thoughts at some point soon... I'll have to re-read things, but the objective/victory condition needs to be made a lot clearer - and we also need to start thinking about the ease with which it can be accomplished etc.

I'd be happy to hear any thoughts you have on it. As for the objective, I think it's very difficult to just "imagine" how a map like this will play, and what the right bonus structure is, etc. This is why I made that comment in the design brief thread. I tried printing it out to play it myself, but that's just too slow. I think I'll have to try making a solitaire map player because I don't know how else to determine what will work best.

[koontz1973]

Some thoughts for you to think about considering what you and MrBenn have said.
Adding more territs to the hallways would make it harder for people to move from room to room but it would also increase the importance to the secret passageways. Place one more between the ones you already have doubles the number.

Getting away from the 3/3/3 grid would be nice. How about making the kitchen and dining room one big room. You could take the foyer out completely and use all of the space of the hallways that surround it. Still have it as the foyer, but integrate it to the hall ways. This alone would remove the regularity.

Removing the motive from the centre of the room and adding a completely new room would be great as having it sitting there in the middle is a huge waste of what could be 1 big or 2 small rooms. (a second bedroom, or a guest room/nursery)

You could place the motive anywhere on the map. How about a rethink of the police station. By making the rooms there smaller, you could have 2 new rooms. On the map where it says interrogation rooms, opposite it is dead space. Use that space with any newly created space to have the motive on one side and the morgue on the other. Drawing a dead body on a trolley should not be hard for you to do with your skill.

In the legend you mention the hallways lose one officer per round. Why? How many crime scenes lose officers that way.

[degaston]

Some thoughts for you to think about considering what you and MrBenn have said.
Adding more territs to the hallways would make it harder for people to move from room to room but it would also increase the importance to the secret passageways. Place one more between the ones you already have doubles the number.

My problem with this is that I don't think either one of those effects would make the map better. What I like to see in a map is a good mix of balance and tension. One in which an early bonus will not tip the game too far in one player's direction, and where cooperation will allow two or more weaker players to hold back a stronger player. Where both threats and rewards may come from many different directions, so it's difficult to know which way to attack, or where to defend.

The secret passages are obviously important, and must be defended if you don't hold the opposite end. So I don't see the need to make them even more important by making the hallways more difficult to get through. I would actually prefer that the secret passages were a little more difficult to get through (about equal to the hallways), but I don't know how to do that without making the map even more confusing.

Likewise, I don't think the hallways need to be more difficult to get through. I don't want the play in the crime scene to stagnate once the rooms are held - I want there to be the possibility of an attack coming from just about anywhere. Though I don't want the crime scene to be one of those "Oh, I didn't know I could be attacked from there!" maps with a lot of non-linear attacks. (That's what the Police station is for)

In the legend you mention the hallways lose one officer per round. Why? How many crime scenes lose officers that way.

The reason for the decay is so that there will be some cost associated with blocking the hallways. Again, I'm trying to keep the game active in the crime scene. I would like to change the legend to something like "Officers found loitering in hallways will be reassigned to other duties at the rate of 1 per round", but I haven't found a way to fit it in yet. This would be one more item in the legend that would require a knowledge of all the game features in order to understand it, but then I wouldn't say that this is a map for beginners anyway.

Getting away from the 3/3/3 grid would be nice. How about making the kitchen and dining room one big room. You could take the foyer out completely and use all of the space of the hallways that surround it. Still have it as the foyer, but integrate it to the hall ways. This alone would remove the regularity.

Removing the motive from the centre of the room and adding a completely new room would be great as having it sitting there in the middle is a huge waste of what could be 1 big or 2 small rooms. (a second bedroom, or a guest room/nursery)

You could place the motive anywhere on the map. How about a rethink of the police station. By making the rooms there smaller, you could have 2 new rooms. On the map where it says interrogation rooms, opposite it is dead space. Use that space with any newly created space to have the motive on one side and the morgue on the other. Drawing a dead body on a trolley should not be hard for you to do with your skill.

Is having some "wasted" space really that bad? I think the problem with a lot of maps out there is that they need more "dead" space. It'shardtounderstandsomethingwheneverybitofavailablespaceisused. I'm not saying I can't add or join or reconfigure rooms in any way necessary, but there's always "Madness" if you want a more realistic floor plan. There have been several comments about how one aspect or another doesn't match the board game, but I thought at least the general layout of the crime scene could have a similar style. (without getting too close because of copyright issues) The Motive is an important part of the game and I thought it should have a prominent position - where the solution cards would be in the board game. I don't mind changing things, but with each suggestion it would be nice to know the reasons why you think it will make the game better.

[koontz1973]

but with each suggestion it would be nice to know the reasons why you think it will make the game better.

My suggestions were not meant to try and make the map / game play better, but to give you some ideas to think about.

The reason why more areas in the hallways - it would make it even harder to defend, with the 1 neutral, it is pretty easy to go flying from room to room as it is. In a flat spoils game, by round 3, if I have a ten cash, I go rampage from any room and attack any other room, you only have 7 spaces at most between rooms. With esc games, it is less of a problem but still, the first to cash gets a huge advantage in being able to shot half way across the map. More territs makes this harder to do.

Getting away from the 3/3/3 grid is nothing to do with game play. But by moving, integrating rooms, you are giving players some flexibility. The reason I mentioned the foyer and dining room/kitchen is because these rooms are the easiest to do. The would go together very well. Most maps have one bonus area that is harder to get but rewards players with a better bonus than any where else. The foyer can stay the foyer, but just remove the walls.

Adding the extra room in the middle, game play wise, having another room to space clues around in cannot harm, only make it better for the more open play you are seeking. The motive is important, only if the players make it so. Most games on this map are likely to be played as singles and not teams, so most players will not bother going for the motive/weapon and suspect as it is going up against 26+ neutral armies. Why waste the troops when for that amount, I can kill and opponent.

Decay in hallways is OK, I just wanted to ask if a second killer was on the loose.

By placing the motive in the police station, your detectives have it all in one place to arrest a suspect. I just threw in the dead body for fun, but when thinking about it, it could add as an incentive (given a large enough bonus) to move around the police station.