Conquer Club

danryan wrote:Looks pretty good actually, once the results of the CC are added in a lot of this is going to be turned on its head.

PACK is going to be interesting to watch as they stick out like a sore thumb in that grouping.

There will definitely be some exciting changes. EMPIRE's recent 31-10 win against Nemesis should safely bump them up to 4th, pushing IA down to 5th. This seems fair to me, as EMPIRE did beat us recently, though it was very close.

We'll roll out a new ranking next month that will include the wars that ended after June 6th (in additional to all other wars + Clan League, back to 2007).

What do you think about The Pack in 10th place now instead of 7th (I updated script to give/take less points to/from clans that play new clans)? Does that seem more commensurate with their performance?

The Voice wrote:This is beautiful. On behalf of visual learners everywhere, thank you for the charts. I feel like I'm analyzing stocks, only not because every godforsaken line would be plummeting ^^. Everything makes so much sense.

Thanks very much! I thought it would be cool to provide charts. I just programmed it to plot a pixel for each month and then connect the dots.

The Voice wrote:I'd love for this to account for 50% and the ranking system used for the Conqueror's Cup to account for the other 50%.

It would be possible, if that's what people want and someone wants to do it. The only major concern I'd have is the frequency of updates. I've set this up to allow for rapid updating of results, at least once a month. And I wouldn't want to combine recent clan war results with a year old opinion poll. I think it's just not feasible to conduct opinion polls every month.

Good update on the adjustment of points gained from newer clans. It will give the rating of those clans time to settle a bit before their results really start affecting the board.

The Pack is a newer clan aswell so should newer clans be penalised for playing each other.its not like any higher clans would play newer clans so they have to play each other in order to get noticed. id agree that we are not 10th, 7th or anywhere near those numbers in reality but your algorithm is based on results and we have done well in our wars.

Sniper08 wrote:your algorithm is based on results and we have done well in our wars.

I agree, if math says they are top 10 then they should be there. if I remember, someone said that playing vs low ranked clans cause some penalizing in this ranking system, so they should even be penalized for not playing vs top clans. except if they make awesome results vs low ranked clans, what they really do.

wow, i am truly impressed..
nice work! (nothing constructive from me just some cudos)

oh i do have something constructive (reg. the pack before the change) if a top clan feels that a new clan who have been doing well is too high in the ranking why not just challange them and put the newbies in their place? or is it the fact that if a top 3 clan hurries up and challanges a new clan on a hot streak and that way boost their own points?

ehh.. maybe i was better when i was nonconstructive, so again.. well done!

/

I'm a fan as well. Good job Farang.

Well this is a very interesting read! We (The Pack) are happy to see we are being noticed in the clan world after only being a clan for 6 months . We have worked very hard to win the wars we have, but have been overloaded at the end of the NCC. Taking on 2 wars at the same time that started at the same time with several people out of town, and taking vacations in the middle of these wars. But hey it is what it is and we are still looking ok in these two wars considering....

Yes we played lower ranked clan at the begging, but did any of you think a high ranked clan would play us when we havent proven ourselves? But BSS isnt a low ranked clan and we did ok in that war! But hey we will be ready to challenge a higher ranked clan once these wars are over and we take a break.

methods aside im not a fan of these results...

IA to high we empire just beat them earlier this year
Pack to high, who have they beat to deserve a spot in the top 10
BPB at 28 just funny
myth at 23
legion at 20

number rankings never work for CC because either they penalize clans for playing those who are ranked lower or reward those who win vs worse competition

ljex did you read this entire thread. Farang just said when he does this for next month empire will move up and IA will move down . Please read the entire thread then you wouldnt miss something like this. And it seems that the rankings here are actually the most fair Ive seen as they are based over time and performance and a whole lot of math

FarangDemon wrote:
There will definitely be some exciting changes. EMPIRE's recent 31-10 win against Nemesis should safely bump them up to 4th, pushing IA down to 5th. This seems fair to me, as EMPIRE did beat us recently, though it was very close.

ljex wrote:

Click image to enlarge.

methods aside im not a fan of these results...

IA to high we empire just beat them earlier this year
Pack to high, who have they beat to deserve a spot in the top 10
BPB at 28 just funny
myth at 23
legion at 20

number rankings never work for CC because either they penalize clans for playing those who are ranked lower or reward those who win vs worse competition

I believe this system is perfect.... the only drawback is that time is essential for true results... numbers and statistics don't lie... sometimes however it takes a great deal of time before they repeat and therefore become relevant... In a year or two this system should be quite accurate for all clans that have actively participated (provided they have had equal exposure)... In the meantime there will be some obvious discrepancies until the numbers start to compile..

Hats off to all of those that are working on this!!

ljex wrote:methods aside im not a fan of these results...

IA to high we empire just beat them earlier this year

You have brought up an excellent point.

The goal of this system is NOT to automatically place the victor above the conquered. To do so would mean to look at the most recent match only, ignoring all past performance - for if past performance IS taken into account, it could bring the rank further up/down, therefore not guaranteeing the victor a spot above the conquered which you deem a requirement.

Taking the most recent challenge only would result in an extremely volatile scoreboard. FOED would be number 5 for recently beating IA (because IA will probably have been at #5 at that time), for instance. Maybe FOED is better than IA now, maybe it was an anomaly.

The algorithm of 400 system requires a clan to prove themselves over a period of time - older results decay and are weighted less and less until after 2 years, they cease to affect rating at all.

ljex wrote:BPB at 28 just funny

BPB stands at 28th, but it's a tight race at that particular place on the scoreboard - they are just 16 points behind 24th place KOA.
So take that into consideration, also with the fact that I've deemed their rank provisional because they haven't had enough recent games.



But looking at their top nine challenges by weight, they have 1 win, 1 tie and 7 losses, all against clans ranked 5th-27th with several high margin losses (won 22% of games against EMPIRE, won 33% of games against MYTH). Their win was against AoD (27th) and their tie was against MM (26th). These nine challenges account for about 80% of their current rating.

The last time they performed really well was CL2, which was a long time ago and so is weighted less. So I think their current provisional ranking is justified.

What is your perception of BPB's rank and what is the basis for your perception? If it is based in any way on performance in clan challenges, I can work with you to further improve this system. I know there are drawbacks with an objective system and I appreciate you voicing your concerns.

One way to improve BPB's rating by objective means may be to diminish or remove the decay on older games, but I think most of the community like having decay as it is.

I wonder what the very close BFM vs TOFU match will do to this ranking system? FOED over IA should shake things up as well.


Nice work!

TOFU will probably drop to #3, unless THOTA drops because of BPB challenge. KORT will most likely stay at #1.

Dako wrote:TOFU will probably drop to #3, unless THOTA drops because of BPB challenge. KORT will most likely stay at #1.

not sure about that, 12-7 loss vs AoC should reduce KORT rank a lot, as AoC is #8. it will be very interesting to see what will the algorithm say in July

FarangDemon wrote:

ljex wrote:methods aside im not a fan of these results...

IA to high we empire just beat them earlier this year

You have brought up an excellent point.

The goal of this system is NOT to automatically place the victor above the conquered. To do so would mean to look at the most recent match only, ignoring all past performance - for if past performance IS taken into account, it could bring the rank further up/down, therefore not guaranteeing the victor a spot above the conquered which you deem a requirement.

Taking the most recent challenge only would result in an extremely volatile scoreboard. FOED would be number 5 for recently beating IA (because IA will probably have been at #5 at that time), for instance. Maybe FOED is better than IA now, maybe it was an anomaly.

The algorithm of 400 system requires a clan to prove themselves over a period of time - older results decay and are weighted less and less until after 2 years, they cease to affect rating at all.

ljex wrote:BPB at 28 just funny

BPB stands at 28th, but it's a tight race at that particular place on the scoreboard - they are just 16 points behind 24th place KOA.
So take that into consideration, also with the fact that I've deemed their rank provisional because they haven't had enough recent games.



But looking at their top nine challenges by weight, they have 1 win, 1 tie and 7 losses, all against clans ranked 5th-27th with several high margin losses (won 22% of games against EMPIRE, won 33% of games against MYTH). Their win was against AoD (27th) and their tie was against MM (26th). These nine challenges account for about 80% of their current rating.

The last time they performed really well was CL2, which was a long time ago and so is weighted less. So I think their current provisional ranking is justified.

What is your perception of BPB's rank and what is the basis for your perception? If it is based in any way on performance in clan challenges, I can work with you to further improve this system. I know there are drawbacks with an objective system and I appreciate you voicing your concerns.

One way to improve BPB's rating by objective means may be to diminish or remove the decay on older games, but I think most of the community like having decay as it is.

It is not a requirement that a clan that beats another be ranked above them but to have 2 clans who have consistently been ranked close and one beat the other only to have them still ranked bellow seems off to me

BPB, i might point to the fact that they played THOTA close recently in the CC2 and the CL3 which is what the vast majority of their results were from was very trips and quads heavy and dubs light, when they are much better at dubs than they are quads and trips. This unequal distribution of games is not very common in clan challenges where i think the majority of weight should be placed for rankings.

Also one problem i have with this and basically all mathematical formulas is they are reactive and not proactive. Take EMPIRE's recent war vs Nemesis, nemesis recently lost a lot of good players yet because we were the first to beat them after all of this we will get a huge boost for the fact that we beat the 11th ranked clan by such a large margin. But when you really look at it we didn't beat the players that made them the 11th ranked clan, we beat the new players. Now they may be better or worse but we dont get credit for that we get credit for beating the past nemesis (no disrespect intended i would not be surprised to see nemesis as a top clan in the near future, but a lot of new players is not exactly a way to have great team chemistry something that is very important to success in clan wars). Sure over many "games" in this case wars things will even out and be accurate but that is the problem, wars aren't a small task and because of that they is never that chance to have them average out over time like would be the case in other games.

Time will order everything.

ljex wrote:Now they may be better or worse but we dont get credit for that we get credit for beating the past nemesis

dont you think that your beating the past nemesis will increase your ranking in every clan ranking not only in this one system? your beating them by high margin will increase your clan place both in chuuck's, jpcloet's, blitz's, farang's and qwert's ranking system.


so why your point that you played vs the past nemesis is comment only connected with this ranking system and not connected with the other ranking systems?

josko.ri wrote:

ljex wrote:Now they may be better or worse but we dont get credit for that we get credit for beating the past nemesis

dont you think that your beating the past nemesis will increase your ranking in every clan ranking not only in this one system? your beating them by high margin will increase your clan place both in chuuck's, jpcloet's, blitz's, farang's and qwert's ranking system.


so why your point that you played vs the past nemesis is comment only connected with this ranking system and not connected with the other ranking systems?

well i don't really know about how you would rank for Chucks/Blitz (I only include him because you do i view his as basically the same as chucks) but if i were to be included in Chucks I would account who they played against, not just the clan and its image but who was playing for the clan at the time, at least for the top clans and then if i had time i would do so for the lower clans but I know less about them so that would be time consuming. Either way Chucks at least gives the option for these things to be taken into consideration while no mathematical formula does in the slightest.

Nice
keep it up

Great job FD.

As for us being ranked up with some of the best, that's cool, and like you PM me earlier, maybe now we can get a challenge that we have worked hard for, and IF we do lose then wouldn't we fall down in rank and be put where some people say we "should be". But IF we win, then shouldn't we deserve to be put up where we "should be"?

The pack is not going to be challenging just anyone, we are a brand new clan and have been doing what brand new clans do, challenge new clans... we wanted to get to a spot where we can challenge higher ranked clans.

So ljex, TOFU or whoever else has a problem with us being so high, why not bring us down where you think we deserve to be? We are open for any higher rank clans to challenge us, I am sure the pack leadership will be more then happy.

With this kind of system, isn't it up to those higher ranked "better clans" to but us no names where we belong?

-griff

grifftron wrote:Great job FD.

As for us being ranked up with some of the best, that's cool, and like you PM me earlier, maybe now we can get a challenge that we have worked hard for, and IF we do lose then wouldn't we fall down in rank and be put where some people say we "should be". But IF we win, then shouldn't we deserve to be put up where we "should be"?

The pack is not going to be challenging just anyone, we are a brand new clan and have been doing what brand new clans do, challenge new clans... we wanted to get to a spot where we can challenge higher ranked clans.

So ljex, TOFU or whoever else has a problem with us being so high, why not bring us down where you think we deserve to be? We are open for any higher rank clans to challenge us, I am sure the pack leadership will be more then happy.

With this kind of system, isn't it up to those higher ranked "better clans" to but us no names where we belong?

-griff

no top clan is going to face you now with the CC im sure you will get your desired challenge in due time, question is will you live up to the words you are speaking now. Take a serious objective look at your clan challenge results. Who have you beat to deserve a spot in the top 10? Its not like you have lots of experienced players like TOFU did way back when. Please if you really wish to think you are a top 10 clan go right ahead but dont be surprised if when the time comes that you do face a top clan they put you in your place.

I think we need to give this system a chance,it is far better than anything else other people have produced.Just need to give it some time and i am sure it will prove to be the most accurate.

I see a lot of people giving slack here, but I think these rankings are fantastic. Great job FD and thanks for the hard work.

I honestly feel mine still have a place and they are very good for what they represent, but these are right up there also. Clearly the best calculated rankings I have seen. And I love the two year decay factor which means the leaderboards are always up for grabs. Come in and have a solid 1 year or so and you will shoot straight up to the top no matter who you are... which is pretty accurate to how it should be IMO.

Again, well done. Thanks for all of the work.

ljex wrote:

grifftron wrote:Great job FD.

As for us being ranked up with some of the best, that's cool, and like you PM me earlier, maybe now we can get a challenge that we have worked hard for, and IF we do lose then wouldn't we fall down in rank and be put where some people say we "should be". But IF we win, then shouldn't we deserve to be put up where we "should be"?

The pack is not going to be challenging just anyone, we are a brand new clan and have been doing what brand new clans do, challenge new clans... we wanted to get to a spot where we can challenge higher ranked clans.

So ljex, TOFU or whoever else has a problem with us being so high, why not bring us down where you think we deserve to be? We are open for any higher rank clans to challenge us, I am sure the pack leadership will be more then happy.

With this kind of system, isn't it up to those higher ranked "better clans" to but us no names where we belong?

-griff

no top clan is going to face you now with the CC im sure you will get your desired challenge in due time, question is will you live up to the words you are speaking now. Take a serious objective look at your clan challenge results. Who have you beat to deserve a spot in the top 10? Its not like you have lots of experienced players like TOFU did way back when. Please if you really wish to think you are a top 10 clan go right ahead but dont be surprised if when the time comes that you do face a top clan they put you in your place.

Uh.. that was my point exactly, when we play a higher ranked mofo clan, then we get put in our place if we lose and this system is proven great... if we play a higher ranked clan and do happen to hold up to our cockiness (Not gonna lie we have some cocky players but we work hard at winning) and we do happen to win, then we move up and prove this system even more correct...

ljex wrote:

grifftron wrote:Great job FD.

As for us being ranked up with some of the best, that's cool, and like you PM me earlier, maybe now we can get a challenge that we have worked hard for, and IF we do lose then wouldn't we fall down in rank and be put where some people say we "should be". But IF we win, then shouldn't we deserve to be put up where we "should be"?

The pack is not going to be challenging just anyone, we are a brand new clan and have been doing what brand new clans do, challenge new clans... we wanted to get to a spot where we can challenge higher ranked clans.

So ljex, TOFU or whoever else has a problem with us being so high, why not bring us down where you think we deserve to be? We are open for any higher rank clans to challenge us, I am sure the pack leadership will be more then happy.

With this kind of system, isn't it up to those higher ranked "better clans" to but us no names where we belong?

-griff

no top clan is going to face you now with the CC im sure you will get your desired challenge in due time, question is will you live up to the words you are speaking now. Take a serious objective look at your clan challenge results. Who have you beat to deserve a spot in the top 10? Its not like you have lots of experienced players like TOFU did way back when. Please if you really wish to think you are a top 10 clan go right ahead but dont be surprised if when the time comes that you do face a top clan they put you in your place.

If you think we are going to look for a challenge right away, we are not. We know we have a lot of work to do to compete at a the high level of play that we will see with the top ten clans. We are taking a few weeks off to revamp our maps, and lineups for clan wars. We have lost many members due to not meeting our expectations or them not buying into THE PACK system. Frankly our core group is exhausted because of our communication level that we use in all our games. We need some R&R, and need to get a few more high quality members recruited, before we go marching into an elite challenge. Our training group needs our time as well, so we will be spending some time there as well. In no less then a month a will start looking into a challenge, maybe since ljex has such a problem with our rank, he can suggest the appropriate clan we should target? These rankings are scaring some people, but i think you will find them to be very accurate. One minor flaw is that you will see the PACK top 5 soon! And yes we are cocky, but not stupid.