What constitutes a good idea for a CC map?

[DiM]

now that the cow map is back on its fit i think it's time to resurrect this thread too.

has the foundry become a place that produces cow maps? will we see all kinds of arbitrary/random/stupid maps come to life?
there are thousands of great cities and regions and all sorts of really cool and interesting places to map. we have tons of historical events that would make a damn nice map. do we really want to take the path towards cow maps? what's next? pigs? turkey? vomit?

the cow map has obvious support from the kort clan and frankly i can't blame them, the persons to blame are those that don't like the map but chose to ignore it instead of expressing their opinion and the foundry leaders that lost their "balls" and are too afraid to step in and draw the line.

[thenobodies80]

I did it DiM, you saw the result, I was hit by a flurry of insults for being a "dictator".

[DiM]

I did it DiM, you saw the result, I was hit by a flurry of insults for being a "dictator".

so? those that do not like how the foundry is run can either:
1. accept it
2. suck it up and leave
3. petition lack to change the Foreman and the CAs

[natty dread]

I think there's a fine balance between "being a dictator" and "upholding the standards", which the CA:s need to be careful with.

On one hand, the CA:s shouldn't be afraid to tell a mapmaker when the quality of the map is not sufficient.

On the other hand, the CA:s shouldn't let their personal opinions affect their judgement too much, and if there's generally lots of support for a map, then the CA:s shouldn't be holding it back purely because it's not to their personal tastes.

It's a fine line to walk on sometimes, and there's no easy answers. But one thing we should all consider is, why are we making maps? Is it for the enjoyment of the public, or is it for some other purpose? I think, the primary purpose of any map is to be fun to play, after all that's what people come to this site for: to have fun playing games on maps. If the public wants to have a few "silly" maps, if they find them fun, then should we deny it from them because some us feel they go against some arbitrary artistic standards we have set for ourselves?

I mean, here's the problem with Dim's argument: who gets to decide what is "a stupid idea", who gets to define what a CC map should be? What some see as stupid, others see as brilliant. I think there are several stupid maps already on CC - Crossword, for one. If we can have a map of a crossword puzzle, why not a cow? Where does the line go, and who gets to decide where it's drawn?

Then there's the slippery slope argument, that if we allow this map, then doom & apocalypse will come, cats and dogs living together, etc... I don't buy that either. Like I said, there have been stupid maps made on CC before, like Crossword. However, the opinion that Crossword is a stupid map is a personal one - some people like it a lot, it's not one of the most popular maps, but it does have a niche following. Crossword was made years ago, and yet CC wasn't flooded with nothing but stupid puzzle maps afterwards.


So anyway... long story short: yes, standards should be upheld, but we should also keep in mind the purpose why we make these maps. I think, sometimes we lose ourselves so deep to the art of mapmaking, that we forget why it is we make them. That is, to give people something fun to play on.

[DiM]

just answer this question truthfully:

would you agree to the making of vomit map? (assuming it has support, gfx are up to standard and the gameplay is sound)


how about my ideas for Sperm Invasion and Poo-Fighters? i can get nice graphics, the gameplay is no problem and i'm pretty sure i can find support.
would that be ok?

back in the old days one of my first attempts at a map was shut down not because it had poor gameplay or even because of the graphics. it was shut down simply because the theme was not that great. have we really sunk this low to completely ignore the theme of a map? perhaps i should revive that old map of mine?

i for one would feel deeply disappointed if a map like the cow one would push through the foundry and frankly it would make me lose any sort of motivation to trying to spice up my maps and delivering something new and exciting each time? why would i bother to do that when i can simply do an animal/plant/object?
why bother setting a theme, creating an atmosphere, developing the gameplay and graphics that complement the established theme? just split up some generic animal/plant/object into terits and you're done.

[thenobodies80]

I like your options DiM

Just an additional reminder from site guidelines:

"It's fine if you don't like this site or the way it is run...find another one with better rules, start another one and make your own rules, abuse another one and try to get them to change their rules, but don't complain about the rules here"

Natty the foundry is not what you're describing. What you're describing is what you would like.
The funny thing in discussing with you is whatever people write you think you're never wrong, here...in other threads....really it's funny.

In any case if you search on the forum you can find more than a small group of people that is not happy with the quality of the current maps. Like DiM said it's not a matter of graphics or just gameplay...is that some maps simply suck and (also for my fault) they should have never had to go through the foundry.

You can like it or not, but this is our job. If you don't like this, read my reminder or use the list DiM posted.

Have a good night
Nobodies

[natty dread]

Natty the foundry is not what you're describing. What you're describing is what you would like.
The funny thing in discussing with you is whatever people write you think you're never wrong, here...in other threads....really it's funny.

Nobodies, can you please stop this stupid thing you're doing, ok?

I'm wrong all the time and I have no problem admitting it if I am. However I don't even see how you can say things like that when it comes to matters of opinion. I wrote about my opinion, how the f*ck can you say my opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) is right or wrong? How does the concept of right or wrong even come to play when it comes to matters of opinion?????

If there's something I've wrote that you specifically disagree with, maybe you could, oh I don't know, address that directly, tell me where you disagree with me, instead of doing these childish fucking things where you sling some personal insult at my face and invalidate all my opinions? How about that, huh?

[natty dread]

just answer this question truthfully:

would you agree to the making of vomit map? (assuming it has support, gfx are up to standard and the gameplay is sound)

Owen will probably hate me for saying this, but no, I wouldn't.

I don't see how that is relevant though. I think it's pretty fair to say that if someone did try to make a vomit map, the overall consensus of the foundry (and CC population) would be that the subject matter would be unsuitable for a CC map. It would be seen as bad taste and stupid.

i for one would feel deeply disappointed if a map like the cow one would push through the foundry and frankly it would make me lose any sort of motivation to trying to spice up my maps and delivering something new and exciting each time?

I don't really see how your motivation is tied to what other people do, but ok.

Anyway, you can all disagree with me if you like. I've explained my position, I've said my opinion, and I'm not going to say anything more because apparently I'm being an asshole for daring to have opinions, so I'm just going to say this:

If you guys don't want to have the cow map made, then move it back to the bin, lock the thread and tell people it's not going to get made. If that's how the foundry works, fine, who am I to argue.

[DiM]

just answer this question truthfully:

would you agree to the making of vomit map? (assuming it has support, gfx are up to standard and the gameplay is sound)

Owen will probably hate me for saying this, but no, I wouldn't.

I don't see how that is relevant though. I think it's pretty fair to say that if someone did try to make a vomit map, the overall consensus of the foundry (and CC population) would be that the subject matter would be unsuitable for a CC map. It would be seen as bad taste and stupid.

actually you'd be surprised how many people would support that map
and nevertheless, make a mental exercise and imagine a situation where the vomit map has support, has graphics and has gameplay. would you like it to be made? same situation for a semen invasion map and a poo fighters map. would you like those too?

i for one would feel deeply disappointed if a map like the cow one would push through the foundry and frankly it would make me lose any sort of motivation to trying to spice up my maps and delivering something new and exciting each time?

I don't really see how your motivation is tied to what other people do, but ok.

it's actually really simple. we're all supposed to be making maps here. if there's a hard way where you actually have to come up with cool themes great concepts and neat graphics and an easy way where you make a cow map i'd probably be tempted to go the easy way and i'm not the only one.

[natty dread]

it's actually really simple. we're all supposed to be making maps here. if there's a hard way where you actually have to come up with cool themes great concepts and neat graphics and an easy way where you make a cow map i'd probably be tempted to go the easy way and i'm not the only one.

You know, some people might say the same things you say about the cow map about your Patch wars map. "A map of pieces of cloth, that's so silly and stupid!"

It's just as arbitrary, just as abstract... one is a cow, the other is patches and buttons stitched together... neither have anything to do with world conquest.

Not that I have anything against your patch map.

So who decides what is a "stupid idea" for a map? Where is the line drawn between innovative and absurd? Also, when you consider that some of the most popular maps in CC have had loads of people say "that will never work, that's so stupid" when they were first drafted...

[DiM]

it's actually really simple. we're all supposed to be making maps here. if there's a hard way where you actually have to come up with cool themes great concepts and neat graphics and an easy way where you make a cow map i'd probably be tempted to go the easy way and i'm not the only one.

You know, some people might say the same things you say about the cow map about your Patch wars map. "A map of pieces of cloth, that's so silly and stupid!"

some people could say that about any other map on CC but what you're missing here is the fact that they didn't. on the cow map i see the foreman, i see the CAs and a lot of other people complaining.
but hey, what do they know? if the foreman and his CAs complain just bring a few clan buddies that never stepped foot in the foundry before, ask them to support the map and BAM! you have "support" and map gets done, right?

So who decides what is a "stupid idea" for a map?

the foreman and his CAs. it's on their job description.

edit// you keep dodging my question. if vomit map or sperm map or poo map had support had graphics and had gameplay would you agree to those maps being quenched?

[koontz1973]

Patch wars
Cow

[natty dread]

some people could say that about any other map on CC but what you're missing here is the fact that they didn't. on the cow map i see the foreman, i see the CAs and a lot of other people complaining.

Some complain, sure. Some of the CA:s and foundry regulars also like the map.

just bring a few clan buddies that never stepped foot in the foundry before, ask them to support the map and BAM! you have "support" and map gets done, right?

No.

the foreman and his CAs. it's on their job description.

So you think one person should have absolute power to decide what map gets through and what doesn't, no matter what the CC community thinks?

Will you feel the same way if it's one of your maps the foreman & CA:s say shouln't get made? Even if you have support from other people, and lots of people want the map, the CA:s can just decide to can it? Is that how you want it to work?

edit// you keep dodging my question. if vomit map or sperm map or poo map had support had graphics and had gameplay would you agree to those maps being quenched?

I've dodged nothing. You asked me if I would make the vomit map, I said I wouldn't. I wouldn't personally support any of those maps. But since it's up to the CA:s to decide what map gets made and what doesn't, what does my opinion matter anyway?

[MrBenn]

who gets to decide what is "a stupid idea", who gets to define what a CC map should be?

I've always believed it should be lackattack's appointed spokesperson: the Foundry Foreman, in conjunction with the CA team.

[koontz1973]

who gets to decide what is "a stupid idea", who gets to define what a CC map should be?

I've always believed it should be lackattack's appointed spokesperson: the Foundry Foreman, in conjunction with the CA team.

But what the FF sees as a stupid idea, the turtle may not. And the other way round. Lack may not post in the forums but if he took a look once in a while at the foundry, he could easily say what is an idiotic idea and have it binned that way. Even if he waited till the FF posted him to say have a look at this one.

natty and DiM have been talking about what is a stupid idea and even though cow, vomit or pizza is considered stupid by me, some may not. Only lack can come in and say it is not right for this site. Take it to another.

If the site is willing to have the cow map, then I can easily see this as a way of getting more animal maps through the foundry as DiM will surely make one , I will just for the pleasure of seeing natty say that the mountain on the turtles back does not look right and some others will come along.

It all has to come down to the fact on how the top man wants the site to be seen.

[thenobodies80]

who gets to decide what is "a stupid idea", who gets to define what a CC map should be?

I've always believed it should be lackattack's appointed spokesperson: the Foundry Foreman, in conjunction with the CA team.

And you're right, just natty can't live with the idea that on this site someone can do that. For him we have to read and move threads according what people (foundry goers) thinks. I tried to explain to him more than in a single occasion that it doesn't work in this way.....but it's easier to teach to a monkey to play beethoven than for him accept the idea that will never work in the way he wants.

Btw

Natty the foundry is not what you're describing. What you're describing is what you would like.
The funny thing in discussing with you is whatever people write you think you're never wrong, here...in other threads....really it's funny.

Nobodies, can you please stop this stupid thing you're doing, ok?

I'm wrong all the time and I have no problem admitting it if I am. However I don't even see how you can say things like that when it comes to matters of opinion. I wrote about my opinion, how the f*ck can you say my opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) is right or wrong? How does the concept of right or wrong even come to play when it comes to matters of opinion?????

If there's something I've wrote that you specifically disagree with, maybe you could, oh I don't know, address that directly, tell me where you disagree with me, instead of doing these childish fucking things where you sling some personal insult at my face and invalidate all my opinions? How about that, huh?

Can you please tell me where i used offensive words / insults in the post you quoted? On the contrary i see at least two times in which you used the f*ck word without a real reason.

You asked what i have?
I'm just expressing my personal opinion and i'm sorry but it doesn't match with your opinion. But this is not a problem, i can live anyway. I don't think anyone has to think exactly the same. Just what you do with your posts is to propose revolutinary thing like what we have now is shit, like all the things ,that the people who was here before me did, are shit. Hey guy! What you have now is the result of 5 years of people that has spent his time and energies on this site. You don't like it? Tell us, we will listen...after that we will decide what it's the best thing to do. It' in this way because some has asked me to have this role on this site. Don't like also this.....sorry guy....but ihave to say again just one thing: read the reminder i posted earlier. That's CC if you don't like it, you're free to open your own site, but don't come here to tell us how we have to do our job all time. There's everywhere someone that can tell you what you can do or what you can't do. If you don't like the idea, you have to convince Lackattack to make you foundry foreman. If you get that role you'll learn that not everything can be done and that you can't please everyone when you have to TAKE decision instead of just post for hilarous and unrealstic changes.
This is what i have against you. Now stop to play Marat role. You're not him and we don't need a revolution.

I hope i was clear because this time is the last time i try to explain to you something that is clear and accepted to everyone for about 5 years.

I'm open to listen ideas, but you can't come here and tell me or to my guys what we can or we can't do, specially if what we do was asked to us by the owner of this site.
So i rewrite my question again: did you buy this site?

Now let me dedicate on more useful things than waste my time to explain things to someone who doesn't want to listen.

Sorry natty, but this what i think and it's all i have to say to you, nothing more.
Nobodies

[thenobodies80]

Only lack can come in and say it is not right for this site.

I talk with Lack all time (with rl life limits). And i ask him things before taking decision on hard things. I don't remember a single occasion in which we thought in a different way.

Have him to post here is something impossible, he already has many things to do (and a long to do list i gave to him). That's why I'm the Foreman,he can't follow everything and he trust in me.

[ironsij0287]

As a newer map maker and someone who recently completed a map that didn't necessarily ever have widespread support I thought I'd say something here.

While there were times it was tough to take and forge on, I do believe if it weren't for the hard criticism from folks like DiM, rjbeals, and the like, Quad Cities would not nearly have come out looking as good as it did, and in hindsight I thank them for it.

Whether its tough love or just plain harsh criticism, in the end a good mapmaker can hopefully rise above it with an improved end product. If you can't detach yourself from taking it personally and just accept the cold reality sometimes, then maybe this isn't what you should be doing.

Just my 2 cents.

[natty dread]

Can you please tell me where i used offensive words / insults in the post you quoted? On the contrary i see at least two times in which you used the f*ck word without a real reason.

Please, don't play stupid with me. Insults are more than just "offensive words", you can insult someone without directly saying "you're an asshole", and just because I use the word "f*ck" does not necessarily make it an insult.

If you felt insulted by my use of those words, I apologize, but they were not written as insults, which I thought was obvious from the context of their use.

However, you have been condescending to me, belittling and ridiculing my opinions. You insinuate that I'm telling people that what I say is always right and no one can disagree with me. I have never implied such a thing and I don't understand why you see the need to claim such unless your purpose is to antagonize me.

When I express my opinion, you throw personal insults like this at me:

The funny thing in discussing with you is whatever people write you think you're never wrong, here...in other threads....really it's funny.

You imply that I always think I'm right. Where have I in this discussion or in any other said that, where have I refused to accept other people's opinions? Can you please show that to me?

And you're right, just natty can't live with the idea that on this site someone can do that. ... but it's easier to teach to a monkey to play beethoven than for him accept the idea that will never work in the way he wants.

Another underhanded insult thrown at me. Apparently, if I'm disagreeing with you I'm just being an asshole and don't deserve to be treated politely or discussed rationally with.

I really don't understand your recent campaign against me. I always thought we had good relations before, maybe even that we were friends at some level, but then you suddenly started this thing against me, which started in my map thread. I tried to discuss with you about it in pm, and you stopped answering when I tried to work out what it was that you suddenly had against me. So can you just please let me know what it is that you want from me, do you want me to leave the foundry, is that it? Do you intend to act like a dick to me until I've had enough and have no choice but to stop posting in the foundry?

sorry guy....but ihave to say again just one thing: read the reminder i posted earlier. That's CC if you don't like it, you're free to open your own site, but don't come here to tell us how we have to do our job all time. There's everywhere someone that can tell you what you can do or what you can't do. If you don't like the idea, you have to convince Lackattack to make you foundry foreman. If you get that role you'll learn that not everything can be done and that you can't please everyone when you have to TAKE decision instead of just post for hilarous and unrealstic changes.
This is what i have against you. Now stop to play Marat role. You're not him and we don't need a revolution.

I'm not playing any role, and I'm not trying to start a revolution. I don't know what gave you that idea.

I really don't see why you have to be so defensive and antagonistic towards me all the time. I'm not telling you to do anything, all I've done is expressed my views on certain issues, as I was asked to do, and your response apparently is "that's not how we do things, if you don't like it, leave".

I've never said that you should adopt my views or ideas and run the foundry according to how I'd like it to work. I've never even implied that. I have expressed my opinions on how I'd like things to be handled, and tried to participate in discussion about how the foundry should function. I thought that was basically what this thread was about. For some reason, you interpret my opinions as me giving orders to you, and I'd like to know why do you have to take it that way?

So i rewrite my question again: did you buy this site?

Allow me to answer with an equally loaded counter question:

Do you want to enforce a totalitarian atmosphere where no one can have any sort of discussion about how they would like to see things handled in the foundry?

Now let me dedicate on more useful things than waste my time to explain things to someone who doesn't want to listen.

I'm willing to listen, if you're willing to discuss things politely with me. And stop assuming that when I express my view on something, I want that view to be followed by everyone. I've never implied I think in that way, and I have no idea why you have to act like I do.

[natty dread]

Here is the post I wrote. Can someone point out to me where in this post I am dictating to people how they should conduct their work, or doing anything other than expressing my opinion and presenting some ideas about the foundry and it's purpose?

I'd like to avoid further conflicts and learn from my mistakes, so can someone please tell me what I was doing wrong here, what part of my post caused nobodies to think I'm dictating orders to him, or what gave the impression that I think my opinions are infallible?

I think there's a fine balance between "being a dictator" and "upholding the standards", which the CA:s need to be careful with.

On one hand, the CA:s shouldn't be afraid to tell a mapmaker when the quality of the map is not sufficient.

On the other hand, the CA:s shouldn't let their personal opinions affect their judgement too much, and if there's generally lots of support for a map, then the CA:s shouldn't be holding it back purely because it's not to their personal tastes.

It's a fine line to walk on sometimes, and there's no easy answers. But one thing we should all consider is, why are we making maps? Is it for the enjoyment of the public, or is it for some other purpose? I think, the primary purpose of any map is to be fun to play, after all that's what people come to this site for: to have fun playing games on maps. If the public wants to have a few "silly" maps, if they find them fun, then should we deny it from them because some us feel they go against some arbitrary artistic standards we have set for ourselves?

I mean, here's the problem with Dim's argument: who gets to decide what is "a stupid idea", who gets to define what a CC map should be? What some see as stupid, others see as brilliant. I think there are several stupid maps already on CC - Crossword, for one. If we can have a map of a crossword puzzle, why not a cow? Where does the line go, and who gets to decide where it's drawn?

Then there's the slippery slope argument, that if we allow this map, then doom & apocalypse will come, cats and dogs living together, etc... I don't buy that either. Like I said, there have been stupid maps made on CC before, like Crossword. However, the opinion that Crossword is a stupid map is a personal one - some people like it a lot, it's not one of the most popular maps, but it does have a niche following. Crossword was made years ago, and yet CC wasn't flooded with nothing but stupid puzzle maps afterwards.


So anyway... long story short: yes, standards should be upheld, but we should also keep in mind the purpose why we make these maps. I think, sometimes we lose ourselves so deep to the art of mapmaking, that we forget why it is we make them. That is, to give people something fun to play on.

[ironsij0287]

Has there ever been discussion about retiring maps that aren't played all that much?

[DiM]

Has there ever been discussion about retiring maps that aren't played all that much?

i proposed it and i was burned alive

[natty dread]

Why should they be retired? If at least some players enjoy them, what good does it do to remove them?

[Nola_Lifer]

Once again, who cares. As a good friend of mine says, "you're worried about the wrong thing." Let people make their maps. If it makes it all the way through to the Final Forge and is made a playable map more power to them. They might surprise you and make a map you enjoy in the future. Yall take this way to personally. Guess what? Some people make millions on art that other people this is crap and some artist make crap on art that is worth a million dollars. It is just how the world turns. Get over yourselves. The community can decide on their own, as natty pointed out, if the map is worth it. Go ahead make all the meat maps you want, human body maps, etc that you want. If the graphics are good and the gameplay is balance then let it through. Some people even bitch about seeing another Europe map. Boo hoo

[ironsij0287]

Why should they be retired? If at least some players enjoy them, what good does it do to remove them?

I don't know. I guess it could be a way to illustrate to mapmakers what maps don't draw much interest?

Is there a place we can see what maps are getting the most plays? If a certain style of map seems to have waning interest perhaps that can be used as an argument towards someone wanting to create a "vomit map".