Paterno

[oVo]

As I said, your embellishment or extrapolation of the facts
as published is trolling saxi.

[natty dread]

As I said, your embellishment or extrapolation of the facts
as published is trolling saxi.

Face it: You were wrong.

Admit it. You'll feel better afterwards. I promise we won't make fun of you.

And why would you assume a local police department is better equipped to deal with this situation? OR, for that matter why would you assume, why would Paterno assume, that the police were not brought in IF there was sufficient evidence?

Are you freaking kidding me???

You hear of someone abusing a child, YOU CALL THE POLICE. You don't assume the matter to be "handled internally". You don't just tell some other guy and assume they will "deal with it". You call the police because that's what a decent human being does in that situation.

Sure, maybe it turns out the accusation was false... but just weigh it against the possibility that the accusation is true and you don't do anything... any concern for the "reputation" of some football coach absolutely should not override the concern for the well-being of a child!

Paterno DID act to protect the child. He REPORTED it!

To the police? No.

He put it in the hands of people who WERE in a better position, more highly trained to actually investigate this.

Ie. the police? No one should be "investigating this" except for the police. No one else is in a better position or more highly trained to investigate a possible crime being committed.

Paterno himself was NOT trained to investigate, and given his position, any investigation he attempted would have heavily blurred the situation.

And that's why he should have gone to the police. No one's saying Paterno should have "investigated it himself", that's a pure strawman argument.

I can point to plenty of other cases where folks did the opposite.. went to the media

Which is why he should have gone to the police, not to the media.

The FAILURE here was of the investigators. It was not Paterno.

The way I see it, this Paterno guy is like the emperor without clothes. You people have raised him to such a pedestal that you can't see him for the naked loser he is.

So he won some football games. So what? In the grand scheme of things, winning a 1000 football games (or however many) is NOTHING compared to just 1 child suffering sexual abuse.

[oVo]

Face it: You were wrong.

Wrong that sweet saxi invented a salacious scatological morsel to provoke a response?
I don't think so.

Sandusky is accused of a criminal act that was grossly mishandled by the Penn State University Administration after it was reported by McQuerry. Saxi's words are not the testimony that was presented to the grand jury investigating the abuse by the assistant coach.

[BigBallinStalin]

Face it: You were wrong.

Wrong that sweet saxi invented a salacious scatological morsel to provoke a response?
I don't think so.

Sandusky is accused of a criminal act that was grossly mishandled by the Penn State University Administration after it was reported by McQuerry. Saxi's words are not the testimony that was presented to the grand jury investigating the abuse by the assistant coach.

Aw, shucks, it wasn't the exact same thing.

"I watched Sandusky forcibly insert his penis into the boy's rectum"

"He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be 10 years old, with his hands against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky."


You're being absurd, oVo. You're pulling a number 1 while sliding to an Ad Trollium attack.

[natty dread]

I don't really see any difference in those statements, except for the exact wording. The message is the same.

[GabonX]

Who the hell cares? I'm sick of people acting like college sports are somehow relevant as anything other than a massive waste of funds and time. The most notable thing about Paterno at this point is his failure to oversee kiddy diddlers in his midst..

I'm also sick of Player rehashing opinion pieces from NPR.

[Symmetry]

Who the hell cares? I'm sick of people acting like college sports are somehow relevant as anything other than a massive waste of funds and time. The most notable thing about Paterno at this point is his failure to oversee kiddy diddlers in his midst..

I'm also sick of Player rehashing opinion pieces from NPR.

The line between what makes you sick, and what you consider merely "notable" is kind of interesting.

Attention to college sports- "I'm sick"
A poster posting a piece from NPR- "also sick"

But,
Raping children- "notable"

Re-assess your priorities.

[PLAYER57832]

You can make up your own minds based on 30 second news bites and snippets of information. I have made my decision based on many, many conversations with people.

Any of those people the parents of the kids Sandusky raped?

In fact, yes.
(I have already stated that my son was in the Second Mile program, though he was absolutely not directly impactes. I have, however, had communication with one of the parents and one of the former victims)

If I'm the HC of a college football team and one of my coaches is accused of molesting boys(and runs a charity for young boys) you bet your ass I'm getting to the bottom of it if only to clear my friend. Sandusky was using Penn State as bait.

you act as if it was one mistake. It was the same mistake EVERY DAY FOR FOR OVER 14 YEARS.

You missed a few details... specifically that Graham Spanier, the head of Penn State at the time, has spoken out about abuse issues specifically. HE is one fo the people to whom Paterno reported this. Also, in any investigation, trained investigators who are close to the person involved generally recuse themselves from the investigation. Thirdly, there were decisions made. In RETRISPECT, we NOW see that these were wrong, very bad decisions.

The one I blame is McGurdy, he SAW it. And what he told Paterno, what he has said before the Grand jury, what he told friends and what he told others all differed.

[PLAYER57832]

His graduate assistant told him he saw Sandusky forcibly inserting his penis into the rectum of a 10 year old boy.

No he didn't. They're trolling you PLAYER, let it go.

Joe Pa's tenure at Penn State is not above scrutiny, but it holds up just fine.
This 2011 scandal is a repugnant failure by the University and not just a
Paterno thing. The Coach is simply the biggest name anyone could attach
to this debacle and it was and is huge news.

Yeah, saxi is. some others..
but yes, I have said my piece.

[saxitoxin]

You can make up your own minds based on 30 second news bites and snippets of information. I have made my decision based on many, many conversations with people.

Any of those people the parents of the kids Sandusky raped?

In fact, yes.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Sandusky's outfit was supposed to serve at-risk youth; most of these kids have parents who have checked-out. Only in the rarest of circumstance could an engaged parent not be aware something was wrong if their 10 year old child was being repeatedly anally raped. The parents are, for the most part - I feel safe in saying without even seeing or hearing from one - people who should have been sterilized. I doubt any of them were up for Parent-of-the-Year honors before this. It doesn't surprise me that the parents of the victims are still guffawed by the majesty and spectacle of BIG TEN FOOTBALL!

"Gawwww State! Yay! (oh hey, stop raping my kid, please) Yay State! I'm dedicating my next batch of moonshine to Old State!"

On top of it all, we still have yet to hear - given the ongoing criminal case - more about the allegations that the entire Penn State football program was just a front operation for an elaborate child prostitution ring for the Commonwealth's political elite ... or the mysterious "disappearance" of District Attorney Gricar in 2005 in the middle of an investigation of Penn State. Paterno was either (1) involved, (2) aware and ambivalent, or (3) so totally out-of-touch with his surroundings that he may have been afflicted with mild mental retardation.

[spurgistan]

Wow. So, the Freeh report just happened. And, uhh, it's even worse than we thought. Over/under on when Penn State plays football again? I'm gonna start the bidding at 2015. I'm mostly sad that Joe Paterno wasn't alive to see the country reject him as the fraud he apparently was.

[GreecePwns]

Their football program will most certainly get the "death penalty."

A damn shame, all this is. And it seems that everyone I see, online and off, saying "nonononono, you don't know the facts!" are people who have some sort of affiliation with the university or the area.

[Army of GOD]

I don't know much about Paterno anyway as I don't give a shit about college football but as far as I can tell, it's not like he had a long history of doing things like this. I don't necessarily want to judge his entire life because of it.

[GreecePwns]

1998 to 2012 isn't a long enough history?

[PLAYER57832]

Wow. So, the Freeh report just happened. And, uhh, it's even worse than we thought. Over/under on when Penn State plays football again? I'm gonna start the bidding at 2015. I'm mostly sad that Joe Paterno wasn't alive to see the country reject him as the fraud he apparently was.

Yeap, I have to offer a big mea culpa. Apparently, Paterno did know of what was happening.. more than he has admitted. He is therefore partially to blame for what happened. Given his "stature" in State College, I have to say he could have stopped this much earlier and therefore has almost as much blame as Sandusky himself. And, unlike Sandusky, appears to have made fully sane judgements. ( I tend to think Sandusky is ill.. though not in a way that excuses punishment, just that his judgements were utterly unsound/based upon a fictional reality he created in his mind).

At the same time, I keep thinking about the story of David, in the Bible. He did great things, was admired, but also committed great wrongs.

If we demand that people we respect are perfect, then we will wind up respecting no one. We should in no way, shape or form dismiss the harm done here. I can say for a fact that changes are already happening in Penn State and the surrounding communities and though time will tell, I do see a diminishing of Joe Paterno's -- "celebrity" might be the correct word? However, at the same time, Joe Paterno did do a LOT of good here in the community. For that matter, so did Sandusky.

I have to think that maybe if we were less demanding of our leaders, maybe we would be more people who are honest instead of so bent on "protecting their reputations" that they cannot admit failings. If we are to lay blame, then while it ABSOLUTELY must be laid at the feet of the individuals involved, including Paterno, it also must be be laid at the feet of the communities that so celebrated individuals, held them up so high that the reputation of a program was held above the safety of individual children.

[Army of GOD]

1998 to 2012 isn't a long enough history?

relative to his entire career, not really

[Woodruff]

Their football program will most certainly get the "death penalty."

I don't think so. Prior to the Sandusky stuff coming out, I've always been a pretty huge fan of Paterno. But unquestionably, Paterno's legacy is permanently destroyed (not just damaged) by this. And Penn State has been hurt badly for a long, long time as well.

[Woodruff]

I don't know much about Paterno anyway as I don't give a shit about college football but as far as I can tell, it's not like he had a long history of doing things like this. I don't necessarily want to judge his entire life because of it.

Honestly, I think something of this magnitude and severity IS relevant to judging his entire life. In my view, something like this really does overwhelm everything good that he's done because it shows more of what WASN'T just public persona. I'm not saying it wipes it away...but it simply makes it not relevant.

[Woodruff]

At the same time, I keep thinking about the story of David, in the Bible. He did great things, was admired, but also committed great wrongs.

If we demand that people we respect are perfect, then we will wind up respecting no one. We should in no way, shape or form dismiss the harm done here. I can say for a fact that changes are already happening in Penn State and the surrounding communities and though time will tell, I do see a diminishing of Joe Paterno's -- "celebrity" might be the correct word? However, at the same time, Joe Paterno did do a LOT of good here in the community. For that matter, so did Sandusky.

I have to think that maybe if we were less demanding of our leaders, maybe we would be more people who are honest instead of so bent on "protecting their reputations" that they cannot admit failings. If we are to lay blame, then while it ABSOLUTELY must be laid at the feet of the individuals involved, including Paterno, it also must be be laid at the feet of the communities that so celebrated individuals, held them up so high that the reputation of a program was held above the safety of individual children.

Ok, I understand what you're saying. But I'd compare it to, for instance, Bobby Knight's situation in college basketball. Bobby Knight was a great coach who did a lot of great things outside of coaching, as well. But he had a hell of a temper and biting sarcasm, and didn't mind using either one in public. Threw outright temper tantrums, even to the point of apparently physically abusing his collegiate players on rare occasions. Everything put together, for me personally, put Bobby Knight at about an "even". I don't at all consider him a great person, nor a bad one. I can't say that I feel the same way about Joe Paterno now, because of the severity of the situation and who the victims were.

I guess I'm saying that it is good that you can look at it that way...that's not a bad thing. But I can't.

[PLAYER57832]

Fast-posted, -- going ahead and submitting before I read the above, then I may add comments afterward.

I don't know much about Paterno anyway as I don't give a shit about college football but as far as I can tell, it's not like he had a long history of doing things like this. I don't necessarily want to judge his entire life because of it.

Honestly, I think something of this magnitude and severity IS relevant to judging his entire life. In my view, something like this really does overwhelm everything good that he's done because it shows more of what WASN'T just public persona. I'm not saying it wipes it away...but it simply makes it not relevant.

I sort of disagree. Essentially, I think that type of view is part of the very problem.

The truth is that no human being is free from ill. When we begin by putting people up on a high pedestal, then we set the stage for this type of abuse. I always found the "George chopped down the cherry tree... [but was honest]" story to be rather stupid and utterly irrelevant, as was his slave holding. He is honored because he was our first president and, above all else, did not turn the presidency into a minnie monarchy or another route of harm. He was not perfect and trying to claim he was is just wrong.

I can be very angry, criticize, whatever, Paterno for his actions (yes, this IS a change.. new information changes things) and yet still acknowledge that he did a lot for Penn State.

I do hold back some anger in this case, not because I think he should be excused, but because he is already dead and there is therefore nothing to be gained by vilifying him specifically. Also, he is not here to defend himself and while the evidence does seem serious, real and damning, there is just something seeming inappropriate about going too deeply at him as a person when he cannot defend himself.

What I think we should do is look at the systems and institutios that allowed this to happen, including how the Penn State football program/all its programs are run and more importantly, how we deal or don't deal with celebrity in general.

At least part of the problem is to hold any single person up so highly, to allow anyone to have such power and stature.


EDIT--- I think I clarified a bit above.
I am sort of taking 3 positions. When it comes to Paterno specifically, the new evidence is damning and certainly should NOT be brushed under the rug. At the same time, I am a bit uncomfortable accusing someone no longer here to defend themselves. In this case, I think enough evidence is there that there is no excuse/alibis or whatever possible, but he is already facing the maker.

I am wary of Paterno becoming the new "scapegoat". For many, the fact that he is not here now will be a kind of easy way to lay the blame. I see that as a mistake, because it just doesn'[t solve anything. Instead, we need to ensure that, basically a "new Paterno" maybe just does not come to be. That is, no one person should have the power he did.

And, when it comes to fixes... we need to look beyond, to ourselves. This is probably more important for those of us "in the vacinity", but it bears attention in the broader reality as well.

[Woodruff]

The truth is that no human being is free from ill. When we begin by putting people up on a high pedestal, then we set the stage for this type of abuse.

Of course no human being is free from making mistakes and doing bad things. And I certainly agree that putting people up on a high pedestal does set the stage for this type of abuse. I don't happen to think either of those things is relevant to Paterno's (or Spanier's, for that matter) decisions and actions in this matter.

I can be very angry, criticize, whatever, Paterno for his actions (yes, this IS a change.. new information changes things) and yet still acknowledge that he did a lot for Penn State.

I never said he hasn't done a lot for Penn State, for his players, and for society in general. But in my opinion, this particular situation comes down to evil, rather than simply being a mistake, because of who the victims were and what was going on. That changes everything, in my view.

I do hold back some anger in this case, not because I think he should be excused, but because he is already dead and there is therefore nothing to be gained by vilifying him specifically.

Yes, and no. I generally agree with you on that. But I DO think that making a big deal of it can make a difference in perhaps getting other organizations (I'm thinking specifically of universities and how they treat their athletic departments) to protect themselves better in keeping from allowing themselves to fall into a similar situation.

Also, he is not here to defend himself and while the evidence does seem serious, real and damning, there is just something seeming inappropriate about going too deeply at him as a person when he cannot defend himself.

Sure, I can respect that view.

What I think we should do is look at the systems and institutios that allowed this to happen, including how the Penn State football program/all its programs are run and more importantly, how we deal or don't deal with celebrity in general.

Oh, certainly that has to be looked at.

At least part of the problem is to hold any single person up so highly, to allow anyone to have such power and stature.

Certainly true.

[GreecePwns]

Their football program will most certainly get the "death penalty."

I don't think so. Prior to the Sandusky stuff coming out, I've always been a pretty huge fan of Paterno. But unquestionably, Paterno's legacy is permanently destroyed (not just damaged) by this. And Penn State has been hurt badly for a long, long time as well.

Considering they've given it for things not illegal (continuous abuse of boosters to play players, namely) it'd be a shame if they didn't get it.

College football altogether should get the death penalty, but I digress.

[Woodruff]

Their football program will most certainly get the "death penalty."

I don't think so. Prior to the Sandusky stuff coming out, I've always been a pretty huge fan of Paterno. But unquestionably, Paterno's legacy is permanently destroyed (not just damaged) by this. And Penn State has been hurt badly for a long, long time as well.

Considering they've given it for things not illegal (continuous abuse of boosters to play players, namely) it'd be a shame if they didn't get it.

College football altogether should get the death penalty, but I digress.

I say I don't think it will happen because the one instance of the death penalty being handed down was due to actions that directly impacted the results on the field (in other words, cheating in football issues). Those were cheating problems, but not really criminal problems (for the most part). This was an athletic department issue, absolutely...but not one that directly impacted the results on the field). This is far more of a criminal problem, but not so much of a cheating problem.

[GreecePwns]

I'd say that the institution and its football program benefited from their committing the criminal act which is even worse than cheating. By benefit, I mean that those in high positions got to keep their positions and the money associated with it and their program continued to gain prestige and the money associated with it. That's a direct benefit to all involved.

Not killing the football program would be equal to taking the position that paying players over a few years is worse than hiding child rape for 12 years.

[Symmetry]

I'd say that the institution and its football program benefited from their committing the criminal act which is even worse than cheating. By benefit, I mean that those in high positions got to keep their positions and the money associated with it and their program continued to gain prestige and the money associated with it. That's a direct benefit to all involved.

Not killing the football program would be equal to taking the position that paying players over a few years is worse than hiding child rape for 12 years.

It'd also be punishing a large group of people for crimes they weren't involved in. Penn state clearly has to address a lot of issues, but labelling everyone who's been involved in their football programme as essentially complicit in pedophilia seems like pushing a bit too far, to put it mildly.