Conquer Club

huamulan wrote:By applying a fallacious rule to the relationship between their government spending and their current fiscal situation.

Why do you say it's fallacious? From what I hear the unrealistic benefits the Greeks are willing to riot for, the inability for the government to collect the proper amount of taxes it's owed seems to equal a poor government spending scenario which isn't helping the situation very much.

Am I way off the mark here? I'm not being precocious, but it seems like a connect the dots cause and effect situation.


You want to clear up the economic situation in Europe?
Start demanding sovereignty over territory in return for bail outs.

JRock

"Okay, you want territory for money? f*ck off, I'm not paying you. Say goodbye to your money and your currency."

Very few realize that it is actually Greece who is in a better bargaining position here.

Greece is one specific example. Phatscotty was using it to demonstrate the more general rule that 'big government' racks up debt and gets into trouble. The other countries I used as examples demonstrate that this is not the rule.

EU states remain mostly sovereign. Popular media (particularly in countries like the UK) likes to pretend they have handed all of their power over to an unaccountable Commission but this is simply not the case.

There are several US states struggling with high debt (such as California) yet I don't hear anyone crying for the US states to go their own separate ways.

huamulan wrote:Hilariously (given your statement 'It's much harder to have a debt over 100% of GDP with a small government than it is a big government') none of those European countries have a debt over 100% of GDP, yet the USA does. Despite its smaller government. Does this tally with your loathing of 'big government'?

This is mincing terms a bit. Public debt is recycled back into the economy, external debt is a net loss for a country. The US is in a pretty bad shape with 100% external debt, but it's not really even in the ballpark of nations like Sweden, Netherlands, UK, Liberia, Burundi, etc., all which have over 200% external debt (350% IIRC in the case of the UK). Even Finland is north of 150% external debt.

Canada seems to have had the most responsible spending practices in the western world, though - conversely - it could be argued it was a net trade-off to being transformed into a client state of another nation. Ultimately, if things really go south for the U.S. they'll just take whatever they need from Canada, this is how all militarized nations in history operate. So, Canada's good times are directly dependent on the U.S. doing very well for itself.

huamulan wrote:If you'll forgive me for using Gaddafi as an example yet again: he provided free healthcare, free education and social housing with a national debt of 0% of GDP. 'Big government, big debt' indeed.

In the People's Jamahiryah funds were distributed directly to the Basic People's Congresses and the people themselves, not retained - for the most part - for central government spending. Similar to Alaska which pays every citizen $2,000/year as a cut of their oil revenue. This is not welfare if it's an unregulated, direct disbursement as a cut of a nationalized industry. It becomes welfare if it takes the form of an indirect/regulated disbursement (e.g. "I'm going to build a library for your benefit.") which turns the people into cows of the state.

THE THREAD wrote:BACK ON TOPIC

GP is clearly right that Greece can't be kicked-out of Europe.

Just as a thought experiment, could the rest of Europe withdraw from the eurozone and form eurozone II leaving Greece the only member country remaining? This would be a de-facto expulsion. (Maybe they wouldn't tell Italy, Ireland, Spain or Portugal they were leaving ...)

Related to the title of this thread, not how the thread has evolved, the Pew Research Center just released a poll on European Attitudes Toward Europeans.

Summary:
1. Everyone hates the Greeks.
2. The Greeks hate everyone.
3. The French and Germans want to sex each other - the Czechs wants to make it a threeway.



http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/05/29/cha ... d-leaders/

saxitoxin wrote:Related to the title of this thread, not how the thread has evolved, the Pew Research Center just released a poll on European Attitudes Toward Europeans.

Summary:
1. Everyone hates the Greeks.
2. The Greeks hate everyone.
3. The French and Germans want to sex each other - the Czechs wants to make it a threeway.



http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/05/29/cha ... d-leaders/

I don't think France and Germany has ever got a long as well as recently. The brits still hold a little grudge against the french however. It's funny that it's not mutual.

saxitoxin wrote: GP is clearly right that Greece can't be kicked-out of Europe.

Just as a thought experiment, could the rest of Europe withdraw from the eurozone and form eurozone II leaving Greece the only member country remaining? This would be a de-facto expulsion. (Maybe they wouldn't tell Italy, Ireland, Spain or Portugal they were leaving ...)

Saxi, don't just say "Europe". Europe is a continent not a economic coalition!
Norway is not even a part of EU but is still a european country you know.
I assume that by "Europe" you mean the countries currently in the eurozone. Which is not even all counties in the EU and far from all european countries. Do you say "USA" when you mean California as well?
I think all the rest of the eurozone members has to do is wait. It won't be long before Grecce has to leave! Their economy will continue to regress while the Euro will remain relatively stable. The whole system is an epic fail! I'm so fucking glad we didn't switch to Euro. But even now there are idiots in Sweden who wants to have the Euro.
Europe will never be USE!!! We don't need that shit!

Greece is just proof that politicians ought to have spent at least 20 years working in real jobs before entering office. 40 year-old career politicians are just big babies.

Gillipig wrote:Saxi, don't just say "Europe". Europe is a continent not a economic coalition!

You know what I meant, silly!

Gillipig wrote:Norway is not even a part of EU but is still a european country you know.

never heard of them

Gillipig wrote:I assume that by "Europe" you mean the countries currently in the eurozone.

Yes, "Europe" is just sometimes easier to type than "coalition of nations - some who are EU members and some who are not - who have adopted the common currency 'euro'." But you're correct it's inaccurate.

Gillipig wrote:Do you say "USA" when you mean California as well?

yes ...

But I think your point is valid anyway. USA does not have both an ethno-geographic name and a political name like "Europe" and "European Union" or "Germany" and "Federal Republic of Germany", only a political name - "USA" (or at least USA doesn't have a commonly used ethno-geographic name).

Gillipig wrote:I think all the rest of the eurozone members has to do is wait. It won't be long before Grecce has to leave! Their economy will continue to regress while the Euro will remain relatively stable. The whole system is an epic fail! I'm so fucking glad we didn't switch to Euro. But even now there are idiots in Sweden who wants to have the Euro.
Europe will never be USE!!! We don't need that shit!

Question: as a non-euro EU member, do you support the EU generally - without the euro - or would you like to Sweden withdraw from the EU entirely?

huamulan wrote:Greece is one specific example. Phatscotty was using it to demonstrate the more general rule that 'big government' racks up debt and gets into trouble. The other countries I used as examples demonstrate that this is not the rule.

Were those other countries Spain, Portugal, Italy....?

saxitoxin wrote:

Gillipig wrote:I think all the rest of the eurozone members has to do is wait. It won't be long before Grecce has to leave! Their economy will continue to regress while the Euro will remain relatively stable. The whole system is an epic fail! I'm so fucking glad we didn't switch to Euro. But even now there are idiots in Sweden who wants to have the Euro.
Europe will never be USE!!! We don't need that shit!

Question: as a non-euro EU member, do you support the EU generally - without the euro - or would you like to Sweden withdraw from the EU entirely?

Instead of quitting it I'd like it to be reformed. I primarly want the EU to be a trading organization. Let each country gowern itself without econmic assistance and law interference. Just maintain some sort of military union that can guarantee each nations independence. Europe is by far the most war hardened continent in the world and there's never been as few wars here as of lately. The EU is to thank for much of that. The atomic bomb should also receive thanks.

Is a barter system really starting to be utilized in Greece?

Phatscotty wrote:Is a barter system really starting to be utilized in Greece?

The barter system in South Philadelphia works quite well.

Man #1: Hey youse want to play the golf? I'm the greenskeeper for a nice club.
Man #2: Sure.
Man #1: Okay, let me have free hoagies for a month.
Man #2: Deal.

On the eve of the countries most important election ever, the municipal workers are threatening strike which would disrupt proceedings and add to the countries problems.



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/326232


It's like arguing about the color you want to paint the living room when the whole shit house is on fire.


JR

Johnny Rockets wrote:On the eve of the countries most important election ever, the municipal workers are threatening strike which would disrupt proceedings and add to the countries problems.



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/326232


It's like arguing about the color you want to paint the living room when the whole shit house is on fire.


JR

That's one down-side with too much job security.

Lazy and want something for nothing. Now Europe has to pay for it.

What makes Greeks lazy? They work more hours than the EU average (more than Germany and France) and their welfare system and spending as a % of GDP are smaller than the EU average, despite the gross inefficiencies (even less than Germany and France and even the Nordic countries, the so called "hard-working" countries that level this accusation).

GreecePwns wrote:What makes Greeks lazy? They work more hours than the EU average (more than Germany and France) and their welfare system and spending as a % of GDP are smaller than the EU average, despite the gross inefficiencies (even less than Germany and France and even the Nordic countries, the so called "hard-working" countries that level this accusation).

I have never met a lazy Greek.

NO I RED IN A PAPPER THAT GREECE IS LAZY WELFARE AND LOOK THERE IS EURO CRISIS GREECE IS EURO BABY ON WELFARE I RED IT IN A PAYPER THERE WAS EVEN A COLOR PICTURE

One of the problems that arises when people who live 3,000 miles read one article on an issue and decide they're now ready to wade into the argument.

huamulan wrote:NO I RED IN A PAPPER THAT GREECE IS LAZY WELFARE AND LOOK THERE IS EURO CRISIS GREECE IS EURO BABY ON WELFARE I RED IT IN A PAYPER THERE WAS EVEN A COLOR PICTURE

One of the problems that arises when people who live 3,000 miles read one article on an issue and decide they're now ready to wade into the argument.

hmmmm

I think the Greeks played better football in the second than they did in the first half. They might've even deserved to win 1-2, but it wasn't meant to be. I think the Greeks will have to try their hardest to make it to the quarter-finals.

huamulan wrote:NO I RED IN A PAPPER THAT GREECE IS LAZY WELFARE AND LOOK THERE IS EURO CRISIS GREECE IS EURO BABY ON WELFARE I RED IT IN A PAYPER THERE WAS EVEN A COLOR PICTURE

One of the problems that arises when people who live 3,000 miles read one article on an issue and decide they're now ready to wade into the argument.

Hope you aren't referring to me, as it seems about 90% of your posts since you came here would suggest......because I have been giving Greece shit for YEARS! Myself and others have been saying the whole time what's coming...and then it comes...

I really don't like to say I told ya so, but I told ya so. I think a lot of the deniers here are only deniers because they would rather act a fool in public than have to admit Phatscotty was right yet again.

I am way past you guys making excuses and begging for more bailouts and rioting for benefits. I am praying for Greece and Greeks. But nothing will be fixed if they are still in denial about the causes of their woes.

JBlombier wrote:I think the Greeks played better football in the second than they did in the first half. They might've even deserved to win 1-2, but it wasn't meant to be. I think the Greeks will have to try their hardest to make it to the quarter-finals.

if not for the controversial calls on yellow cards, Greece may actually have gotten 1-2 like i predicted. but i still think Greece is the worst team of all the 16 qualifiers.

Phatscotty wrote:Phatscotty was right yet again.

About what exactly?