Racism

[OnlyAmbrose]

Having lived in southern cali my whole life, I can't say I've ever understood or experienced racism... It's not something I can really wrap my head around. Maybe this is just because I've been sheltered from it, but my opinion at the moment is that racism is just a tool at this point, used by some to make money and others to escape criminal charges...

[OnlyAmbrose]

part of me finds racism hilarious. because it's such a sign of stupidity, of limited mind. that since we can't laugh at retards (even though they are goofy, and it might be wrong to laugh about them) we can laugh at people so retarded as to believe that another race is inferior, or unequal in anything except pigment.

So how do you explain the fact that negroes have an IQ (which are 80% genetically determined) 14 points lower on average than Caucasians (genuine question, I'm not racist, but when friends say that to me, I genuinely can't answer)?

Does it matter? I know blacks who are equally as smart as and often smarter than me. That said, it would be irresponsible to presume that any given white is superior intellectually (or otherwise) to any given black.

[Nobunaga]

Lets talk about the fact that the beginning of civilization began in Iraq?/Middle East/North west india.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

The defence rests, and the white man, well, he just moved north from those winners - only he weren't white when he started human civilization.
Relatively basic point i hope, and basic anthropology Nap.

why dont more people realise this?

... It's obvious. Your education system is as bad as ours.

...

[reminisco]

Napoleon Ier = brilliant

also hilarious.

don't forget the glorious flag you used to fly nappy, be careful how far you go playing devil's advocate. cause what you pretend to be you, you end up becoming.

[Napoleon Ier]

part of me finds racism hilarious. because it's such a sign of stupidity, of limited mind. that since we can't laugh at retards (even though they are goofy, and it might be wrong to laugh about them) we can laugh at people so retarded as to believe that another race is inferior, or unequal in anything except pigment.

So how do you explain the fact that negroes have an IQ (which are 80% genetically determined) 14 points lower on average than Caucasians (genuine question, I'm not racist, but when friends say that to me, I genuinely can't answer)?

Does it matter? I know blacks who are equally as smart as and often smarter than me. That said, it would be irresponsible to presume that any given white is superior intellectually (or otherwise) to any given black.

It matters for the sake of this particular debate, yes, but I can only agree with you on the level that if indeed anthropologists are correct, it doesn't form just grounds in which to base a racial eugenics policy.

[Napoleon Ier]

Napoleon Ier = brilliant

also hilarious.

don't forget the glorious flag you used to fly nappy, be careful how far you go playing devil's advocate. cause what you pretend to be you, you end up becoming.

What, you mean the flag which you were repeatedly embarrassed by when it transpired you were accusing it of being objectively and absolutely racist, and furthermore, that you had no historical evidence to claim that it may have represented racism to it's original designers?

Would you also care to provide evidence to back up your O-so courageous little outburst earlier when you qualified several leading anthropologists as "stupid", "retarded" even, or are you just going to sit there hiding behind the negative connotations of the term racist?

[got tonkaed]

a short summation of why i dont think the findings matter...

1) The construct of race as anything approaching a pure describable entity is challenged. Race as a social construct is pretty common, but the fact that science must be tailored within this social construction, very likely presents a bias that will be difficult if not impossible to overcome, especially given the objectivity desired given the research.

2) the science of seems rather shoddy, and i think highlights a bit of a concern about psuedoscience and our failure as people to reason. When looking a few of those points of contention, it did not take very long to think about a number of reasons why there might be flaws or large gaps and jumps that should not require much further discussion. The fact that anyone takes the information seriously...suggests more about peoples ability to suspend their reason in place of "authoritated information".

3) I did a short little look on the general intelligence bit and found that it is somewhat criticized and seems to be disregarded by more mainstream individuals within the field. The fact that 1950's science and earlier (science that wasnt far removed from the eugenics era) is the bedrock for one of the pieces of evidence should be somewhat telling.

4) The utility argument is rather simple and probably doesnt need to be gone into, but further highlights the frivolity of the research and the group which attempts to promote it.

should there be the need for more, im sure i could go over it again...but its sort of wasting ones time to take any of this seriously.

[PLAYER57832]

and of course the famous quote:

“I hate the gooks,” said McCain, a Vietnam War POW more than a quarter-century ago, “and I will hate them for as long as I live . . . and you can quote me.”

Given that he had only recently been a PRISONER OF WAR, subject to TORTURE ... I think a bit of hatred can be excused. Has he repeated those sentiments today? NO, in fact, I strongly believe he has overcome them. One of the great things about human beings is our capacity to learn and grow. I hope I never have to find out if I can be as forgiving!

No, no, no, you're misreading the quotation. McCain said in 2000 that he hates gooks and will as long as he lives.

Anyone who has been held prisoner and tortured as McCain was, can be excused for retaining some bitterness ... even many years later.

BUT, I still say that his actions and his later words prove that, while he may hold those feelings within himself... he does hold them within, he does not act upon them to any great extent. THAT speaks far louder than any words.

[jiminski]

Anyone who has been held prisoner and tortured as McCain was, can be excused for retaining some bitterness ... even many years later.

BUT, I still say that his actions and his later words prove that, while he may hold those feelings within himself... he does hold them within, he does not act upon them to any great extent. THAT speaks far louder than any words.

hmm what it proves is that he is fatally prejudiced towards an entire Nationality and, perhaps, race...

Do we allow for murderous prejudice against all Germans, within individuals who lost a family member in Nazi concentration camps? well perhaps we do; we justify it in the same way.."sheese that poor bastard.. if it were me, i would want to kill all Germans too!"
But, and this is the important point, do we want an eternally disgruntled individual, who understandably can not forgive, at the helm of the most powerful democracy in the world?

No thanks mate... Give me Nelson Mandela any day!

[suggs]

a short summation of why i dont think the findings matter...

1) The construct of race as anything approaching a pure describable entity is challenged. Race as a social construct is pretty common, but the fact that science must be tailored within this social construction, very likely presents a bias that will be difficult if not impossible to overcome, especially given the objectivity desired given the research.

2) the science of seems rather shoddy, and i think highlights a bit of a concern about psuedoscience and our failure as people to reason. When looking a few of those points of contention, it did not take very long to think about a number of reasons why there might be flaws or large gaps and jumps that should not require much further discussion. The fact that anyone takes the information seriously...suggests more about peoples ability to suspend their reason in place of "authoritated information".

3) I did a short little look on the general intelligence bit and found that it is somewhat criticized and seems to be disregarded by more mainstream individuals within the field. The fact that 1950's science and earlier (science that wasnt far removed from the eugenics era) is the bedrock for one of the pieces of evidence should be somewhat telling.


4) The utility argument is rather simple and probably doesnt need to be gone into, but further highlights the frivolity of the research and the group which attempts to promote it.

should there be the need for more, im sure i could go over it again...but its sort of wasting ones time to take any of this seriously.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! forget "social consrtucts" and made up sociological bs. There are different races -the differences are all PHYSICAL, and BIOLOGICAL. The point is, the biological differences are ABSOLUTELY TINY. Essentially they boil down to small differences in pigmentation, and thats it.
Christ, sociology - what an intellectual blind alley.

[PLAYER57832]

Anyone who has been held prisoner and tortured as McCain was, can be excused for retaining some bitterness ... even many years later.

BUT, I still say that his actions and his later words prove that, while he may hold those feelings within himself... he does hold them within, he does not act upon them to any great extent. THAT speaks far louder than any words.

hmm what it proves is that he is fatally prejudiced towards an entire Nationality and, perhaps, race...

Do we allow for murderous prejudice against all Germans, within individuals who lost a family member in Nazi concentration camps? well perhaps we do; we justify it in the same way.."sheese that poor bastard.. if it were me, i would want to kill all Germans too!"
But, and this is the important point, do we want an eternally disgruntled individual, who understandably can not forgive, at the helm of the most powerful democracy in the world?

No thanks mate... Give me Nelson Mandela any day!

1. I don't want McCain as president, for a lot of reasons.

2. I would have to see the context of this remark to know if it is significant or not.

3. I do not agree with or like racism.


I don't justify hatred of any kind. However, I do say that compassion goes two ways. I can say that we should forgive those who harm us because the hatred does US more harm than them ... but I cannot tell someone who was tortured or abused that their hatred and anger are "wrong". I CAN say that they must not act on that hatred in other than words ... and that they should moderate even those.

I remember reading that McCain was part of a reconcilliation tour not so long ago. That speaks louder than any statement repeated out of context.

As for Mandella ... I am not sure he is the most shining example, but I do look to Cory Ten Bauhm, Mother Teresa, etc. Unfortunately, none of them are running right now. ..

[suggs]

Some hatred is good. Compassion wouldnt have done you a lot of good if you were a slave in the 19th century. Turning the other cheek just isnt always appropriate.. Some times you need to fight, and sometimes you need to hate.

[jiminski]

Anyone who has been held prisoner and tortured as McCain was, can be excused for retaining some bitterness ... even many years later.

BUT, I still say that his actions and his later words prove that, while he may hold those feelings within himself... he does hold them within, he does not act upon them to any great extent. THAT speaks far louder than any words.

hmm what it proves is that he is fatally prejudiced towards an entire Nationality and, perhaps, race...

Do we allow for murderous prejudice against all Germans, within individuals who lost a family member in Nazi concentration camps? well perhaps we do; we justify it in the same way.."sheese that poor bastard.. if it were me, i would want to kill all Germans too!"
But, and this is the important point, do we want an eternally disgruntled individual, who understandably can not forgive, at the helm of the most powerful democracy in the world?

No thanks mate... Give me Nelson Mandela any day!

1. I don't want McCain as president, for a lot of reasons.

2. I would have to see the context of this remark to know if it is significant or not.

3. I do not agree with or like racism.


I don't justify hatred of any kind. However, I do say that compassion goes two ways. I can say that we should forgive those who harm us because the hatred does US more harm than them ... but I cannot tell someone who was tortured or abused that their hatred and anger are "wrong". I CAN say that they must not act on that hatred in other than words ... and that they should moderate even those.

I remember reading that McCain was part of a reconcilliation tour not so long ago. That speaks louder than any statement repeated out of context.

As for Mandella ... I am not sure he is the most shining example, but I do look to Cory Ten Bauhm, Mother Teresa, etc. Unfortunately, none of them are running right now. ..

Citing MT is rather irrelevance and your dismissal of Nelson speaks volumes about many a force-fed perspective on occupation!

I chose Mandela for lots of reasons! Most relevantly because he walked from the belly of his enemy, after decades of incarceration, torture and neglect. Abuses at the hands of an occupying 'master' race..... and he forgave! He held their future in the palm of his hand and far from hating, he embraced them as brothers!
He did so because he is a great man and perhaps he genuinely empathised with their weakness! He also did so because his suffering and hate was nothing compared to the possibility of peace and success for all his people!

That is who i want to run a Government... not someone who clings onto his hate like a tool of inspiration!

[suggs]

Mandela may have walked free - but did he use moisturiser? I think hes wrinkly face suggests he didnt use those years of incarceration too wisely.
And to paraphrase (waugh? on auden i think -f*ck knows) - imagine the state of Nelsons scrotum!

[PLAYER57832]

I admire a lot of things about Mandella, particularly those things you mentioned. I do hold up Mother Teresa and Cory Ten Bauhm higher, probably because they were not politicians.

When I said Mandella was not the most shining example, I was referring to incidents of corruption and such, but I certainly agree those things pale in the face of what he did do.

At any rate, no one is perfect.

I think that is the biggest problem with these sorts of discussions. There is too much of a tendancy to both look at some individuals under a microscope ... and at the same time to dismiss even blatant and deserved criticism of others.

In truth, I don't like McCain for president, DO admire Mandella for much of what he did ... and don't really know either on a personal basis.

[Snorri1234]

The point is, the biological differences are ABSOLUTELY TINY. Essentially they boil down to small differences in pigmentation, and thats it.

Word. We haven't had the time to evolve much more.

[PLAYER57832]

Some hatred is good. Compassion wouldnt have done you a lot of good if you were a slave in the 19th century. Turning the other cheek just isnt always appropriate.. Some times you need to fight, and sometimes you need to hate.

Actually, this is when turning the other cheek is MOST appropriate ... or, following the examples of Ghandi and Martin Luther King.When one has little power, the only thing one CAN do is to submit, bide your time.  If you rebel, then you are only feeding into their justification.   If you calmly "take" what they dish out, then you show them for the abusers they are .. in time. 

[suggs]

Some hatred is good. Compassion wouldnt have done you a lot of good if you were a slave in the 19th century. Turning the other cheek just isnt always appropriate.. Some times you need to fight, and sometimes you need to hate.

Actually, this is when turning the other cheek is MOST appropriate ... or, following the examples of Ghandi and Martin Luther King.When one has little power, the only thing one CAN do is to submit, bide your time.  If you rebel, then you are only feeding into their justification.   If you calmly "take" what they dish out, then you show them for the abusers they are .. in time. 

I howled with anguish at this. What pious, ill considered, bigoted clap trap.
You know what happened if you were a slave, and turned the other cheek? They branded the other one, thats what.
The south never would have been freed without anger and hatred.
I know you can't help thinking your childish Judao-Christian slogan chanting, are in fact, sophisticated, rational ethics - but they are not.
I'm sure you go down well in Sunday school - keep it there in future.

[PLAYER57832]

You know what happened if you were a slave, and turned the other cheek? They branded the other one, thats what.

And what happened when they DID rebel? They got whipped, at BEST. And, often, the rest of the group along with them.

It took powerful white folks to change things. This does NOT mean that blacks are in any way incapable, it does mean that in the times of slavery they were almost powerless. The only thing they COULD do was to practice subtle dissention. Ridicule in songs the white masters never bothered to hear. Slowing of work ... just enough to not get themselves beaten severely... and most of all, assuring the white folks again and again and again that they truly were as stupid as the white folks thought ... because if they did not, they would have been worse than killed. The greatest acts of sedition were to teach their children to read, to teach them stories of history and the like. NOT taking up arms or fighting.

Lincoln freed the slaves, thinking that the whole lot would rise up and join the ranks of the union armies. They didn't. THAT is the power of slavery.

As for the rest of your speil. You know someone hasn't a leg to stand upon when all they can do is send out insults.

[InkL0sed]

Lincoln freed the slaves, thinking that the whole lot would rise up and join the ranks of the union armies. They didn't. THAT is the power of slavery.

That's not at all true. Freeing the slaves gave the Union a huge boost during the Civil War, one of the major factors in the Union's victory, in fact.

[jiminski]

I admire a lot of things about Mandella, particularly those things you mentioned. I do hold up Mother Teresa and Cory Ten Bauhm higher, probably because they were not politicians.

When I said Mandella was not the most shining example, I was referring to incidents of corruption and such, but I certainly agree those things pale in the face of what he did do.

At any rate, no one is perfect.

I think that is the biggest problem with these sorts of discussions. There is too much of a tendancy to both look at some individuals under a microscope ... and at the same time to dismiss even blatant and deserved criticism of others.

In truth, I don't like McCain for president, DO admire Mandella for much of what he did ... and don't really know either on a personal basis.

I agree with much of that, but the point i am making is specifically about the qualities required of great leadership.

in 2000 Senator McCain told reporters

"I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."

Although McCain said he was referring specifically to his prison guards, his use of the word "gook" is not only offensive but it is careless, short-sighted and alludes to a lack of self-control.

the man was a Senator at the time; a public servant and key arm of the legislature, he should be above such lapses into language indicative of a hate-filled time. Not because he does not deserve the luxury of hate but because he is staking a claim to power.

firstly he Isolates all Asian people by this comment and secondly he alludes to an inherent flaw in his character. A flaw fostered and born of the most extreme of circumstance but a very real one never-the-less.

Now the stress free, relaxing and mentally unchallenging position held by the President of the United States may not put him in such a difficult situation as being on a bus with reporters again.. but it might.

[Snorri1234]

You know what happened if you were a slave, and turned the other cheek? They branded the other one, thats what.

And what happened when they DID rebel? They got whipped, at BEST. And, often, the rest of the group along with them.

It took powerful white folks to change things. This does NOT mean that blacks are in any way incapable, it does mean that in the times of slavery they were almost powerless. The only thing they COULD do was to practice subtle dissention. Ridicule in songs the white masters never bothered to hear. Slowing of work ... just enough to not get themselves beaten severely... and most of all, assuring the white folks again and again and again that they truly were as stupid as the white folks thought ... because if they did not, they would have been worse than killed. The greatest acts of sedition were to teach their children to read, to teach them stories of history and the like. NOT taking up arms or fighting.

Lincoln freed the slaves, thinking that the whole lot would rise up and join the ranks of the union armies. They didn't. THAT is the power of slavery.

As for the rest of your speil. You know someone hasn't a leg to stand upon when all they can do is send out insults.

I'd say that you both have a point. While violent protest in itself can not overturn the slavery, it does have a keyrole in making sure people know what they want. It paves the way for the peacefull protesters by making people aware of things. Without the protests, people would have listened less to advocates against slavery and racism. Ofcourse some people saw it as justification for racism, others became aware that slaves were also people and what was being done to them was horrible.

While it's true the greater acts of protest were those of peace, the hate and violence made sure that people didn't ignore the issue. If the Tibetans didn't protest with a little violence, many people wouldn't even be aware there was an issue. It's just good publicity.

[The1exile]

This video is obligatory watching for everyone.

[PLAYER57832]

I admire a lot of things about Mandella, particularly those things you mentioned. I do hold up Mother Teresa and Cory Ten Bauhm higher, probably because they were not politicians.

When I said Mandella was not the most shining example, I was referring to incidents of corruption and such, but I certainly agree those things pale in the face of what he did do.

At any rate, no one is perfect.

I think that is the biggest problem with these sorts of discussions. There is too much of a tendancy to both look at some individuals under a microscope ... and at the same time to dismiss even blatant and deserved criticism of others.

In truth, I don't like McCain for president, DO admire Mandella for much of what he did ... and don't really know either on a personal basis.

I agree with much of that, but the point i am making is specifically about the qualities required of great leadership.

in 2000 Senator McCain told reporters

"I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."

Although McCain said he was referring specifically to his prison guards, his use of the word "gook" is not only offensive but it is careless, short-sighted and alludes to a lack of self-control.

the man was a Senator at the time; a public servant and key arm of the legislature, he should be above such lapses into language indicative of a hate-filled time. Not because he does not deserve the luxury of hate but because he is staking a claim to power.

firstly he Isolates all Asian people by this comment and secondly he alludes to an inherent flaw in his character. A flaw fostered and born of the most extreme of circumstance but a very real one never-the-less.

Now the stress free, relaxing and mentally unchallenging position held by the President of the United States may not put him in such a difficult situation as being on a bus with reporters again.. but it might.

I don't really disagree with your assessment. It is just that today, when everyone'se very word is put under a microscope ... even the best of people (which McCain is NOT!!!) have lapses. I think it is wrong for me, sitting here in my warm home, having never experienced real depredation to lay claim to the right to judge McCain just because of that one statement. ( I DO judge him for many other things, including his morality on other grounds)

As for his stating it was just his guards. That might be true. Personally, I have never really heard the term "gook", except on rare occasions by Vietnahm vets. It was ALWAYS used in reference to the enemy, not all asians in general .. including by a couple of men who had loving Asian wives and children. I am not saying that is how it is always used, or that it is an appropriate term, even under those circumstances. The term absolutely shocked me then. I am just saying that there are much more important things that we should look at when assessing McCain's fitness for the presidency.

And, I would say that in general. You can pick just about any great man (or woman) in history and you will find they have made idiotic statements, made terrible base judgements, been prejudiced in terrible ways. Yet, their good deeds stand. The fault is not in celebrating the good. It is in trying to claim that any person is strictly good ... or strictly bad. We are all a mixture.

One thing McCain has never done is pass legislation or act in ways that are particularly bad for Asians. That is, Asian Americans are harmed by his bad policies just like everyone else, but there is no indication anywhere that he has in any way singled them out.

The analogy I would draw is to George W. Bush. He proclaims himself a Christian. Many people voted for him, largely upon that basis. Yet, I can name no president that has harmed this country more, in the Christian sense, than any other in recent memory. He maintains a war based upon a lie. Health care, children's benefits have all been cut. He actually told agencies NOT to enforce already weak protections for air and water ... because he claims there is " no science" to back these things up. (sorry, but there is ... it was my field) ETC. He was voted in , in part, because a lot of folks liked his ant-abortion stance. Yet, 8 years later and thousands of people have died because of his policies. Abortion is still legal. Views on prayer in school, etc have not changed... etc. The balance is that this so-called "Christian president" (and I don't dispute his beliefs, just his actions) has done far more harm than good.

[GabonX]

The varying quality of race is one of those things which social norms have forbidden science to investigate. Dr. Watson, one of the co discoverers of the structure of DNA and great scientific minds of our time, recently stated that Africans were less intelligent than other races. I don't think he was going by anything other than his own personal observations meaning that his comments were not scientific but the quickness of the rejection of his comments illustrate that this is not an issue which is open for discussion. Quite frankly I think that people do not want scientific inquiry to to investigate whether or not there is a difference in the quality of races because they are afraid of what may be found.

The commonly held view that all races are equal in all respects likely does not reflect the reality of things. We know that people with darker skin are less prone to skin cancer and that blacks tend to hold an advantage in many sports. I think that the idea of a master race is far fetched, but rather that if the subject could be investigated in a non biased way we would find that the different races of man are advantageous in some respects and are lacking in others. Adaption to ones surroundings undoubtedly plays a large roll in this. One group may lean towards physical superiority and another may lean towards a higher intellectual capacity. The sad reality is that there are probably certain races which are generally inferior to others. I couldn't tell you where all of the chips would fall as I am unaware of any non biased scientific research on the topic. What I can tell you is that culture can play a roll in the development of the quality of a race and I have an article to back this claim up.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 342040.ece

Regardless of one's racial disposition I believe that in many cases through hard work and dedication that it is possible to overcome one's genetic disadvantages. Edison said "Success is 10 percent inspiration and 90 percent perspiration" and I think this has a lot of significance here. A person who has a preconditional advantage may not develop their ability while a person with no advantage, or even a handicap, may be able to become better than someone who has a genetic advantage through hard work. Personally I think that the person who develops a skill while they have a racial disadvantage is all the more impressive but the notion that racism is ignorance is in itself ignorant as it is based on nothing other than empty rhetoric of an unrealistic and unlikely ideal.