universal healthcare

[suggs]

Socialized. Society. Social. People. Connecting with people.
There is such thing as society, Jay - don't think that its a dirty word. Its been an inherent part of human civilization since...hang on, it IS civilization!

[PLAYER57832]

Today I was told that the US is the only country in the western world that does not provide universal healthcare to its citizens.
Assuming this is true:
1) Why has there not been a revolution over this?
2) What possible argument - unless you own stock in health insurance companies - could there be against setting up a free, nationalised health service in the US?

1) More importantly, why is there no uprising over gas prices?

2) Because some people believe in capitalism. That the government should remain (actually become) small and NOT be involved in every aspect of our lives. Universal health care= Socialized health care.

BIG difference between gas and medical care. You generally don't find yourself rushing to the gas station desperately worried that your child might die if not treated right away.

AND, it doesn't take a whole lot of education to decide wich gas station gives you the best deal.

Deciding wether to undergo surgary or chemotherapy to cure your child's cancer... or which drugs or combination of treatments .. .is a BIT more complicated.

Education and free choice are 2 CRITICAL factors in a free market ... they don't really exist in health care.

[Snorri1234]

1) More importantly, why is there no uprising over gas prices?

Word. People having no money to be healthy is way less important than having to pay a little more money for your gas.

[Nickbaldwin]

Today I was told that the US is the only country in the western world that does not provide universal healthcare to its citizens.
Assuming this is true:
1) Why has there not been a revolution over this?
2) What possible argument - unless you own stock in health insurance companies - could there be against setting up a free, nationalised health service in the US?

1) More importantly, why is there no uprising over gas prices?

2) Because some people believe in capitalism. That the government should remain (actually "become") small and NOT be involved in every aspect of our lives. Universal health care= Socialized health care.

Because your gas prices are fucking low.

[jonesthecurl]

Today I was told that the US is the only country in the western world that does not provide universal healthcare to its citizens.
Assuming this is true:
1) Why has there not been a revolution over this?
2) What possible argument - unless you own stock in health insurance companies - could there be against setting up a free, nationalised health service in the US?

1) More importantly, why is there no uprising over gas prices?

2) Because some people believe in capitalism. That the government should remain (actually "become") small and NOT be involved in every aspect of our lives. Universal health care= Socialized health care.

Because your gas prices are fucking low.

And you will see that in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, there have been protests, including roadblocks and more, several times in the alst decade or so.

[PLAYER57832]

Today I was told that the US is the only country in the western world that does not provide universal healthcare to its citizens.
Assuming this is true:
1) Why has there not been a revolution over this?
2) What possible argument - unless you own stock in health insurance companies - could there be against setting up a free, nationalised health service in the US?

1) More importantly, why is there no uprising over gas prices?

2) Because some people believe in capitalism. That the government should remain (actually "become") small and NOT be involved in every aspect of our lives. Universal health care= Socialized health care.

Because your gas prices are fucking low.

And you will see that in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, there have been protests, including roadblocks and more, several times in the alst decade or so.

There are some in the US, also ... mostly by independent truckers.

[tzor]

There are some in the US, also ... mostly by independent truckers.

I got to love them. Mind you I know some people who drive trucks for a living, but irony is a powerful thing. Really it is. The trucking industry really started after WWII from all those servicemen who were moving supplies via trucks for the war effort. The effect of that influx of service was the near complete elimination of freight railroads in the United States. Unlike passinger rail even the government could not keep the freight rail running. (CONRAIL was a dismal failure.) They simply could not compete with the trucking industry and nearly died out.

Recently I just heard about how many miles a certain US Freight line can move it's frieght on a gallon of diesel fuel. I managed to find the following quote from Association of American Railroads

In 2007, major freight railroads in the United States moved a ton of freight an average of 436 miles on each gallon of fuel. This represents a 3.1 percent improvement over 2006 and an astonishing 85.5 percent improvement since 1980.

"That's the equivalent of moving a ton of freight all the way from Baltimore to Boston on just a single gallon of diesel fuel," said Association of American Railroads President and CEO Edward R. Hamberger.

Trains FTW - Revenge is a dish best served with only a dash of diesel.

[heavycola]

Today I was told that the US is the only country in the western world that does not provide universal healthcare to its citizens.
Assuming this is true:
1) Why has there not been a revolution over this?
2) What possible argument - unless you own stock in health insurance companies - could there be against setting up a free, nationalised health service in the US?

1) More importantly, why is there no uprising over gas prices?

2) Because some people believe in capitalism. That the government should remain (actually "become") small and NOT be involved in every aspect of our lives. Universal health care= Socialized health care.

Jay - take your insanity elsewhere please. Go back to the tinfoil hat thread.
1) gas prices are not more important than healthcare. This might be the most retarded thing you have ever.... actually, maybe not.
2) That's... ah forget it.


Nappy you shock-haired scandinavian doll you:
Stop being a twat. The NHS is undoubtedly huge and cumbersome - I believe it is the second largest employer in the world after the indian railways. That could be wrong - nevertheless. It needs bureaucrats and managers, althoguh i am sure it could use fewer of them. And despite your tired, predictable and unfailingly misguided generalisations, privatisation - which is responsibile for countless efficiencies, and job/wealth creation elsewhere - is not good news for healthcare provision. If you told me you would prefer to live under the US health system over the French or British, i would call you an outright liar.

[Napoleon Ier]

In the US, land of oppurtunity, I'll be able to get a job. I'll be taxed less on it. I'll get better quality healthcare, of my choice, tailored to me, for less money. AND a better job.

Unless the bastards consider me a subsersive foreign immigrant and don't let me in. That's be poetic fooking irony...

[Snorri1234]

If you told me you would prefer to live under the US health system over the French or British, i would call you an outright liar.

Well it depends on whether he would be rich or not. I am certain my dad would like the system more there, as he's a doctor so would earn more, and it won't be hard to provide good health-care coverage for us. (Though it would be more expensive.)

I imagine he would love to escape the 52% tax he gets over here.



Now, if one were not rich, it would be foolish to move over there.

[Snorri1234]

In the US, land of oppurtunity, I'll be able to get a job. I'll be taxed less on it. I'll get better quality healthcare, of my choice, tailored to me, for less money. AND a better job.

You are going to Magical America?


Because it sure as hell won't be cheaper. There is a reason why the USA pays about double the amount of money per capita as the UK.

[Napoleon Ier]

If you told me you would prefer to live under the US health system over the French or British, i would call you an outright liar.

Well it depends on whether he would be rich or not. I am certain my dad would like the system more there, as he's a doctor so would earn more, and it won't be hard to provide good health-care coverage for us. (Though it would be more expensive.)

I imagine he would love to escape the 52% tax he gets over here.



Now, if one were not rich, it would be foolish to move over there.

Really? I know socialist types like to bow and worship and the almighty altar of social justice and eequality, trying to make sure no-one's talents or achievements are recognised, and that everyone stays exactly equal, but in the US, if you're poor, you can still make something of yourself if you put the hard graft and backbone. It's a socially mobile environment, especially for those with talent and something useful to offer the economy and society. Whereas in Britain...you spend your life in the same cubicle, filling out pointless reports, without any real chance of getting out there and doing something with your life. So I'd say the poor have plenty to gain from America.

[suggs]

OK. I have ZERO stats to back this up with, but i think its fair to say poverty is a greater problem in the USA than Britain.
Conversley, the (undefined) middle class have a better standard of living in the US than Britain.
I know this to be true, and yet can't be arsed to waste my life trying to find all the newspaper articles, books and people i have spoken to about this during my life.
So bite me.

[suggs]

OK. I have ZERO stats to back this up with, but i think its fair to say poverty is a greater problem in the USA than Britain.
Conversley, the (undefined) middle class have a better standard of living in the US than Britain.
I know this to be true, and yet can't be arsed to waste my life trying to find all the newspaper articles, books and people i have spoken to about this.
So bite me.

[heavycola]

If you told me you would prefer to live under the US health system over the French or British, i would call you an outright liar.

Well it depends on whether he would be rich or not. I am certain my dad would like the system more there, as he's a doctor so would earn more, and it won't be hard to provide good health-care coverage for us. (Though it would be more expensive.)

I imagine he would love to escape the 52% tax he gets over here.



Now, if one were not rich, it would be foolish to move over there.

You can get private healthcare anywhere. My point is that in the US you are at the mercy of a system incentivised only by profit, and in the case of healthcare - as with the justice system, for example, or education - the state should provide, because in these cases a profit motive is not going to end happily. There is nothing intriniscally 'good' about private markets, just as there is nothing intrinsically good about state control. Horses for courses.

I know socialist types like to bow and worship and the almighty altar of social justice and eequality, trying to make sure no-one's talents or achievements are recognised, and that everyone stays exactly equal, but in the US, if you're poor, you can still make something of yourself if you put the hard graft and backbone. It's a socially mobile environment, especially for those with talent and something useful to offer the economy and society. Whereas in Britain...you spend your life in the same cubicle, filling out pointless reports, without any real chance of getting out there and doing something with your life

if you toned down the wild generalisations and exaggerations you might actually get your point across better. Honestly. if you write: 'in Britain...you spend your life in the same cubicle, filling out pointless reports' you don't put anyone's back up, you just demean your argument.
The American Dream, eh? Don't whistle in the elevator.

[Napoleon Ier]

Err...last I checked, private schools and hospitals do top the league tables. Despite government manipulations of the stats.

But erm, seriously, if you don't want "profit" as an incentive, you don't want any incentives then? Because that's going to work so much better, clearly?

[DangerBoy]

I imagine he would love to escape the 52% tax he gets over here.

Is that across the board or just for a certain bracket?

[PLAYER57832]

In the US, land of oppurtunity, I'll be able to get a job. I'll be taxed less on it. I'll get better quality healthcare, of my choice, tailored to me, for less money. AND a better job.

Unless the bastards consider me a subsersive foreign immigrant and don't let me in. That's be poetic fooking irony...

ONLY If you are lucky!
Lucky enough to get a job that gives you a choice of health care -- UPPER escheleon Blue Cross ONLY ... some Aetna policies, a FEW Farmer's Insurance policies (at least as of a couple of years ago ... there may not be ANY now). IF you are fortunate enough NOT to end up diabetic, with serious kidney problems or cancer (all reasons that end up in your being booted from Blue Cross --- either quickly or over a few years).

LUCKY ENOUGH to GET that job ... which, as you yourself just noted is, more often that not, either being sent overseas, given to immigrant workers in the US (which, if legal is actually not a bad thing... but that is another story) OR just at a wage so low that you cannot support yourself and your family ... and that is WITH that required College degree from a GOOD college.

For the VAST majority of americans ... IT IS NOT SO!

[Snorri1234]

I imagine he would love to escape the 52% tax he gets over here.

Is that across the board or just for a certain bracket?

Just the bracket. It's the highest one.

It wouldn't be that bad if they spent the money better though, we can still live quite well on it. But taxes that are not well-spent are just stupid.

[Napoleon Ier]

You live in the US. I know you may think you have it viciously hard, and can't get your gasoline for as cheap as you used to, blah blah blah, but this ridiculous picture you're painting of a Depression-era America in the Tennessee Dustbowl is just not believable. You have an average wage of over $40.000 a year in the US. In France, it's $28.000. Your Gini co-efficient isn't significantly different from that of Britain or France, either.

I hate to break it to you, but America is not poor. Sierra Leone is poor. America? No. I know regurgitating the Hillary Clinton campaign bollocks they feed you about how hard you have it is attractive, but let's face it: half of you are fucking obese: you're not starving by an empty hearth in ragged clothes.

[heavycola]

Err...last I checked, private schools and hospitals do top the league tables. Despite government manipulations of the stats.

But erm, seriously, if you don't want "profit" as an incentive, you don't want any incentives then? Because that's going to work so much better, clearly?

err... yes, eton and winchester and harrow regularly jostle for top spot on the leaderboards. 99% of the children who go there have Very Rich Parents. And even you, who would doubtless call any parent who can't afford to send their child to Eton a lazy workshy socialist, must believe that every child deserves a decent education.

I'll say this again, slowly. the profit motive works exceedingly well in business, but not in a justice system, or education, or healthcare. The incentives for state-run education and healthcare in a democracy are for the policymakers in charge to produce well-educated children and a healthy population so that they are not voted out. Everyone wins, except the churlish taxpayer and his fake-tanned, pig-thick, diamond-encrusted, graceless wife.
Horses for courses, as i said. It's an English saying that means you choose the right tool to do a job with.

[Napoleon Ier]

Err...last I checked, private schools and hospitals do top the league tables. Despite government manipulations of the stats.

But erm, seriously, if you don't want "profit" as an incentive, you don't want any incentives then? Because that's going to work so much better, clearly?

err... yes, eton and winchester and harrow regularly jostle for top spot on the leaderboards. 99% of the children who go there have Very Rich Parents. And even you, who would doubtless call any parent who can't afford to send their child to Eton a lazy workshy socialist, must believe that every child deserves a decent education.

I'll say this again, slowly. the profit motive works exceedingly well in business, but not in a justice system, or education, or healthcare. The incentives for state-run education and healthcare in a democracy are for the policymakers in charge to produce well-educated children and a healthy population so that they are not voted out. Everyone wins, except the churlish taxpayer and his fake-tanned, pig-thick, diamond-encrusted, graceless wife.
Horses for courses, as i said. It's an English saying that means you choose the right tool to do a job with.

Yeah. I see your point, Beveridge. The dream of socialized education and health-care really worked out great, didn't it. Shame those privatized NHS bastards went in and ruined everything. Oh wait...

[Snorri1234]

You have an average wage of over $40.000 a year in the US. In France, it's $28.000.

Yeah, but you don't have so many top-earners as the USA. And average wage doesn't mean you get the same for your bucks. If you get very sick or something, you don't have to pay anything in france whereas you'd have to pay like 5000 dollars in the USA.

Besides, France is a pretty shitty example with their high unemployed percentage and general shittyness of things. There are plenty of countries in Europe with a much higher average wage than the USA.

[Frigidus]

You have an average wage of over $40.000 a year in the US. In France, it's $28.000.

Yeah, but you don't have so many top-earners as the USA. And average wage doesn't mean you get the same for your bucks. If you get very sick or something, you don't have to pay anything in france whereas you'd have to pay like 5000 dollars in the USA.

Besides, France is a pretty shitty example with their high unemployed percentage and general shittyness of things. There are plenty of countries in Europe with a much higher average wage than the USA.

Our country isn't too bad yet, but unless we get rid of the incompetent oafs running our country the dollar's going to be worth shit. See, we're going to keep running the country on a deficit budget until we owe so much that nobody will be willing to lend us any more. While this might send up red flags for people with even a gram of common sense, the government will probably say "Well, we have to keep spending money on stupid shit like a giant floating banana over Texas. How else will we get reelected?" They will then print more money and hand it out by the barrel. At first this will really impress people, until gas costs over $100 a gallon because the dollar is worth less than paper. Soon people will be wiping their asses with money because it's more cost effective and the government will realize that perhaps it's time we started cutting back a tad. Meanwhile there will be riots in the street because the dollar menu at McDonald's is now the five dollar menu, and by God, America doesn't have their McDonald's on the cheap there will be hell. And by hell I of course mean that they'll vote the Republicans back into congress and a Democrat into the presidency. That'll show them. Meanwhile, as our household pets slowly approach the point of being more intelligent than their dip shit, arrogant, selfish, fat ass owners they will take what is rightfully theirs, and will manage to do what no human could: Balance the fucking budget.

In short, things will get better after cats rule the world.

But yah, as soon as I'm out of college I'm getting off of this sinking ship. I haven't decided where I'm going yet, but I'm certainly not staying here.

[tzor]

You live in the US. I know you may think you have it viciously hard, and can't get your gasoline for as cheap as you used to, blah blah blah, but this ridiculous picture you're painting of a Depression-era America in the Tennessee Dustbowl is just not believable. You have an average wage of over $40.000 a year in the US. In France, it's $28.000. Your Gini co-efficient isn't significantly different from that of Britain or France, either.

Oh no Nappy, we have it hard. Oh that middle class that moved farther and farther and farther from the city (like you know 60 miles or more) and moved into those McManshions with the cathedral ceilings and more bathrooms than they have bedrooms. Kids these days need to be driven to all their after school activities (they don't call them soccer moms for nothing) so betwen a full time job (because it takes two to pay for the McManshions) and the afterschool activities they need that gas guzzling minivan for the kids. Of course no one has time to stay home and cook anymore so the kids get obeese on fast food resturants. Yes they have it really hard.

Because they are really stupid.

Did I mention that these same people routinely drive 75 MPH in the 55 MPH zone?

It's rough with the weak dollar. It's not like European tourists are going to rush over to see our vineyards. (I'm talking Long Island not that Califorina crap.)