Clarify No Rating

[DoomYoshi]

Sorry, there appears to be a misunderstanding here.

Not leaving a rating at all does not count as a rating on another player. I didn't mean to imply that it did.

However, if you leave a 5-star for gameplay and a 0-star for an attitude, it is listed as "No Rating". I don't think it contributes to score. That isn't the point though.

The point is, if you are incomplete, you might only leave a fair-play rating and say nothing of gameplay and attitude (leave them blank).

When I look at my own ratings, lots of people have left me 0 star-ratings. Some of these intended to give me zero-stars, and some intended to leave it blank.

There is no way to distinguish between these two options.

Imagine a question: How do you feel about Obama?
We take all the answers that say No Opinion and all the answers that say Worst President Ever and then combine them to one category called "Zero Stars" with no way of distinguishing between them. That's what we have.

[DoomYoshi]

Ok, I just checked.

No Ratings don't count. So there is no way to leave a zero-star rating.

[Metsfanmax]

However, if you leave a 5-star for gameplay and a 0-star for an attitude, it is listed as "No Rating". I don't think it contributes to score. That isn't the point though.

It may not be the point of this suggestion, but I was correcting a mistaken assumption. If you leave a rating in one category but no rating in another category, that's averaged in as a zero to your overall score. Example: Joe leaves a 4-star rating in Gameplay, a 3-star rating in Attitude, and no rating in Fair Play for John. When the overall ranking is calculated for John, Joe's rating is averaged to get (4 + 3 + 0) / 15 = 2.3. Then this is averaged in with the averaged score of every other contributor. Whether that's a desirable feature or not is a worthwhile topic of discussion.

The point is, if you are incomplete, you might only leave a fair-play rating and say nothing of gameplay and attitude (leave them blank).

When I look at my own ratings, lots of people have left me 0 star-ratings. Some of these intended to give me zero-stars, and some intended to leave it blank.

There is no way to distinguish between these two options.

So, as long as leaving no rating for a category does in fact count as a zero star rating, then there's no reason to distinguish the two. If we change that so that there is no zero-star rating effect, then I'd agree with that there needs to be a distinction.

[DoomYoshi]

Not true. 0s are not counted.

If 0s are counted, it should not say "No Rating" and should instead say "0 stars".

Chapcrap left me with 2 no ratings. I doubt he is trying to say I have zero playing ability and zero attitude.

A guy I suicided into left me with a No Rating also. I'm pretty sure he was trying to leave me with a zero, but didn't realize there was no such thing.

From the Rules:

Each rating consists of measurements from 1 to 5 stars

[dshedd]

Well, I think this just proves how confusing it is.... since we have a few different opinions on it right here in this small conversation!

But, seriously. I don't think you can give a zero star rating. If you look at the instructions for ratings under the "the game" tab at the top of the screen, it says:

"To encourage good sportsmanship, members can rate other members they have played with. Each rating consists of measurements from 1 to 5 stars on any of the following attributes: fairplay, gameplay, attitude."

It then says that the scale is: "1=Bad....5=Excellent".

I don't think you can give 0 star ratings. But, I guess I think that it should then look like something was "not rated" not look like someone gave somebody a "zero."

Or, if I'm totally wrong about this and you CAN give zero ratings, then it should look different than when you simply don't rate one of the categories....

I'm fascinated that my suggestion has gotten this much traffic! You guys rock! I would totally give you ALL 5 star ratings. But, only on a scale of 1-5...

[dshedd]

yes! exactly Doom Yoshi!

[DoomYoshi]

DoktorDave

You can do calculations on his ratings to see what's up.

[Metsfanmax]

Not true. 0s are not counted.

If 0s are counted, it should not say "No Rating" and should instead say "0 stars".

Chapcrap left me with 2 no ratings. I doubt he is trying to say I have zero playing ability and zero attitude.

A guy I suicided into left me with a No Rating also. I'm pretty sure he was trying to leave me with a zero, but didn't realize there was no such thing.

From the Rules:

Each rating consists of measurements from 1 to 5 stars

I'm just telling you how it works in the actual code. There are definitely some inconsistencies around, I'll admit that much.

[chapcrap]

Yeah, Doom is correct, Mets is wrong, I'm pretty sure.

If you do not rate something and rate another category, it does not count the one left unrated at all. For evidence of this, look at my ratings:
https://www.conquerclub.com/player.php? ... e=chapcrap

I have 2051 people that have rated me, but each category has less than 2051, because occasionally, I've had people leave out a category.

[Metsfanmax]

DoktorDave

You can do calculations on his ratings to see what's up.

His overall rating is determined by the following. He has 15 ratings equal to 5 (player-averaged). He has one averaged rating = 3.33, and one = 2.66. So his overall rating is (15 * 5 + 3.33 + 2.67) / 17 = 4.76, which rounds up to 4.8. There's no way to get that 4.8 without those zero-ratings having been counted, so the code still works as I thought.

[DoomYoshi]

No, I just calculated the doctor. Dividing the total rating of 243 by 50 (not counting the 0) gives 4.86 or 4.9.
Which means it counts for overall, but not for the category.

chapcrap ratings-killed me.

[Metsfanmax]

No, I just calculated the doctor. Dividing the total rating of 243 by 50 (not counting the 0) gives 4.86 or 4.9.
Which means it counts for overall, but not for the category.

Exactly. And overall rating has the weird quirk that you average each player's ratings first, before you average all the ratings. If that didn't happen (and the zeros didn't count), then the doctor would actually have a 4.7 displayed.

[DoomYoshi]

4.9 you mean.

[chapcrap]

If it was counting for his attitude, his rating would be like 4.5 for it, but it's 4.9, so it's obviously not counting. However, it must be counting for overall, because how are all three categories 4.9 and overall 4.8?

[Metsfanmax]

I wrote something other than what I meant, because admittedly this is a bit confusing. I am not sure the statement above is accurate. Anyway, I don't think it matters whether you look at it as average-of-averages or just summing all the ratings up and dividing by 51, because each average is just a divide-by-3 operation anyway, which can be factored out.

chap: exactly. It doesn't count for the individual ratings categories.

[spiesr]

Mets, you have made this thread way more confusing than it should be.
Leaving a rating blank is not in any way the same as giving a zero for that attribute (if such a thing were possible.) For example if you leave a rating of 4 for gameplay and leave the other two blank if affects the averages as follows:
It acts like a 4 in the gameplay average.
It does not effect the Attitude and Fairplay averages at all.
It acts on the Overall average the same way leaving 4 in each category would. This is because the Overall average is calculated by averaging the three values of each individual rating and then averaging the results.
While this may be confusing I believe it is the best system, as it allows some who only rates in one category to have the same amount of impact on the overall average as someone who rates all three.

As for the actually topic of the suggestion; I agree this is confusing and should be changed. I am fairly certain this has been suggested before. I will try to find and merge tomorrow.

[spiesr]

Mets, you have made this thread way more confusing than it should be.
Leaving a rating blank is not in any way the same as giving a zero for that attribute (if such a thing were possible.) For example if you leave a rating of 4 for gameplay and leave the other two blank if affects the averages as follows:
It acts like a 4 in the gameplay average.
It does not effect the Attitude and Fairplay averages at all.
It acts on the Overall average the same way leaving 4 in each category would. This is because the Overall average is calculated by averaging the three values of each individual rating and then averaging the results.
While this may be confusing I believe it is the best system, as it allows some who only rates in one category to have the same amount of impact on the overall average as someone who rates all three.

As for the actually topic of the suggestion; I agree this is confusing and should be changed. I am fairly certain this has been suggested before. I will try to find and merge tomorrow.

[Metsfanmax]

It acts on the Overall average the same way leaving 4 in each category would. This is because the Overall average is calculated by averaging the three values of each individual rating and then averaging the results.

That's just not correct, as was demonstrated empirically above. A no rating acts on the Overall average as if it were a zero rating. In other words, if you leave a 4, 0, 0, then that player's contribution is 1.33, not 4. Do the math yourself on the DoctorDave guy if you don't believe it.

[spiesr]

It acts on the Overall average the same way leaving 4 in each category would. This is because the Overall average is calculated by averaging the three values of each individual rating and then averaging the results.

That's just not correct, as was demonstrated empirically above. A no rating acts on the Overall average as if it were a zero rating. In other words, if you leave a 4, 0, 0, then that player's contribution is 1.33, not 4. Do the math yourself on the DoctorDave guy if you don't believe it.

Mets' you are wrong. I have worked this out before. I just ran it through on DoktorDave. He is a poor example as in his case it works out that the Overall rounds to 4.8 no matter if that blank is counted as a 0 or a 4.

Click image to enlarge.

This is how it works.

[Metsfanmax]

It acts on the Overall average the same way leaving 4 in each category would. This is because the Overall average is calculated by averaging the three values of each individual rating and then averaging the results.

That's just not correct, as was demonstrated empirically above. A no rating acts on the Overall average as if it were a zero rating. In other words, if you leave a 4, 0, 0, then that player's contribution is 1.33, not 4. Do the math yourself on the DoctorDave guy if you don't believe it.

Mets' you are wrong. I have worked this out before. I just ran it through on DoktorDave. He is a poor example as in his case it works out that the Overall rounds to 4.8 no matter if that blank is counted as a 0 or a 4.

Click image to enlarge.

This is how it works.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3098859

At one point Dako agreed that there was a bug and zero ratings counted. At the time the arithmetic for the player in question made sense to me; I wouldn't have said it unless I was confident. It may have since been fixed, but no one ever publicized it.

Looking into it further, I see two reasons to believe why it may have been. I can't get 1.8 for this player unless no ratings don't count:

http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?m ... kiebunkles

and also, there's no one < 1.0 even though many of the 1.0 players have a single rating, with one left empty (though that could be explained by a hard 1.0 rating floor, if one exists).

On the other hand, sherkaner makes a different argument here:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... g#p3506982

He says that a no-rating counts as the average of the other ratings left by the player, which is slightly different from what spiesr says. To verify this would require a player with a low number of total ratings, who has at least one player give them one no-rating and two different values for the other categories. I haven't been able to find anyone yet to verify it for myself (I found Shia1978 but both methods give 4.1 here). But in context, it would make sense as he's saying there's a rating that counts as 1.5 stars (so presumably there was a player rating with a 1, a 2, and an empty).

[DoomYoshi]

How it works.

The fact that 4 suggs mods are having this much time figuring it out proves there is a problem.

[iAmCaffeine]

I thought everyone knew that not rating someone's gameplay doesn't count to their gameplay rating, but does count towards their overall rating.

[universalchiro]

When rating a player, there is an option to give zero stars to someones rating. Suggestion is to provide in the definition of 'Rating' that a rating of zero is abstaining from rendering a rating, which doesn't alter the players rating. There needs to be clarity of the effect of a zero rating with someones overall rating average.

With an economy of words, a zero rating can be defined as providing no rating.

[DoomYoshi]

I thought everyone knew that not rating someone's gameplay doesn't count to their gameplay rating, but does count towards their overall rating.

Not everyone is a multi of one of the charter members.

OH! BURN!

[iAmCaffeine]

I thought everyone knew that not rating someone's gameplay doesn't count to their gameplay rating, but does count towards their overall rating.

Not everyone is a multi of one of the charter members.

OH! BURN!

Harharhar. Anyhow, problem solved.