account sitting issues..new rule? <updated - see 1st post>

[greenoaks]

i have always had a problem with one person taking all turns to avoid missing a turn.

this rule clarification goes as far as i had hoped & means you will need two separate people to login and take the turns in a doubles match, 3 separate people for trips and 4 separate for quads. if someone has the time to find someone to take a turn for them in the middle of the day then they likely have the time to login and take that turn themselves.

[jiminski]

i have always had a problem with one person taking all turns to avoid missing a turn.

this rule clarification goes as far as i had hoped & means you will need two separate people to login and take the turns in a doubles match, 3 separate people for trips and 4 separate for quads. if someone has the time to find someone to take a turn for them in the middle of the day then they likely have the time to login and take that turn themselves.

edit.. used foe list instead to vent profound irritation

[Twill]

<edited to reflect jiminski's mature venting decision>

The rule as posted was designed to stop any gray area around the accusations of people such as skyt or warsteiner - either they break this rule (they are playing for someone else) or they don.t

Think Twill, this rule won't solve cheating it just frustrates a lot of people who don't cheat but who do have a social life. Freestyle is cheating from the beginning try to solve that.

you're right, we should get rid of any account sitting, freestyle and, while we're at it, new signups because they can all be abused.

Other than attacking everything, try rewording the rule so that it actually addresses the problems you see. It's very easy to criticize, not so easy to actually fix.

If you guys can come up with a viable alternative we will listen to it. Despite popular opinion we don't do things just to piss people off

Oh, and no, freestyle and team games are the bane of my existence. And my points sadly reflect my lack of time to play the game that I joined to enjoy. Did you want to sit for me to bump it up?

[jiminski]

edit

[lord voldemort]

jim be reasonable pretty sure twill said instead of whining help come up with a viable solution that makes all happy

[jiminski]

edit

[lord voldemort]

no offence but u are skimming...twill is giving people the option of coming up with a viable solution.
yet you write yourself off strait away. many MANY people are in the same boat. help with the ruling to make it decent

[owenshooter]

jim be reasonable pretty sure twill said instead of whining help come up with a viable solution that makes all happy

am i not always reasonable Voldemort!? .. i am tired of reasoning and no one being bothered to listen.

Done.

offer a written alternative to what has been offered. we are working on it in our BpB forum, and have been assured whatever we come up with, will be sincerely looked at and considered. you should try the same. be constructive, try to come up with a solution. im not happy with it either, so i'm working to find a resolution that i feel is more relevant to the cheating issues attempting to be dealt with.-0

[AndyDufresne]

Agreed. If we can get more people putting their heads together, we can find a solution that works. **Music swells** Remember...we're a community!

So lets all work together and figure this out. And don't forget to eat a banana.
edit: post 7000


--Andy

[jiminski]

nope i'm done

[lord voldemort]

no.

nice edit
sigh well im going to try to contribute........i promise cake jim...and maybe pie...
ah well

[detlef]

<edited to reflect jiminski's mature venting decision>

The rule as posted was designed to stop any gray area around the accusations of people such as skyt or warsteiner - either they break this rule (they are playing for someone else) or they don.t

Think Twill, this rule won't solve cheating it just frustrates a lot of people who don't cheat but who do have a social life. Freestyle is cheating from the beginning try to solve that.

you're right, we should get rid of any account sitting, freestyle and, while we're at it, new signups because they can all be abused.

Other than attacking everything, try rewording the rule so that it actually addresses the problems you see. It's very easy to criticize, not so easy to actually fix.

If you guys can come up with a viable alternative we will listen to it. Despite popular opinion we don't do things just to piss people off

Oh, and no, freestyle and team games are the bane of my existence. And my points sadly reflect my lack of time to play the game that I joined to enjoy. Did you want to sit for me to bump it up?

The problem is, I don't have an alternate to propose because I don't think we need a rule. I completely understand that this babysitting in Freestyle can be totally abused. Of course, that pretty much sums up freestyle. I mean, that entire format is all about pushing the envelope of what is kosher.

Honestly, I really don't see why it's any worse for one guy to take his an his partners turn compared to two guys making a point of always logging on at the same time. Neither are truly in the spirit of good sportsmanship because both are somewhat sketchy tactics trying to advantage of your opponent. Well taking your turn together is all well and good, provided you're not feasting on pick-up squads who don't know one another, which, as we all know is a very sleazy but completely accepted tactic around here.

Just like I think it's cheesy as hell to move last, take a continent and sit there hitting refresh over and over and starting your turn the nanosecond somebody starts the next round.

Of course, I'm not bitching about it, I just avoid Freestyle. That entire format is so wrought with BS tactics that I'm amazed that anyone's feathers are ruffled over this in particular.

So, the way I see it, you've got just another in a long line of unsavory tactics to be used in Freestyle and something that nobody has made a reasonably convincing argument gains an advantage in sequential. So, that seems like a great opportunity to do absolutely nothing.

So, this is pretty much just a longer winded version of what Jim is offering. I have not alternate suggestion outside of just chilling out.

Oh, and BTW, it's funny you mention all those rather extreme measures to avoid cheating because they make our point exactly. There's literally nothing we can do to stop cheating entirely so why come up with random rules that are completely ineffectual in preventing it whose only real effect is to make the site less user friendly?

[RiskTycoon]

ok twill.... if you think it is such an advantage to make all the moves by yourself on a team game then put your money where you mouth is bud..... go ahead .... set up 30, 40 , crap 100 games for all i care ..... myself and two pals will play against you and you and you on your team .... you make ALL the moves by yourself on your team and everyone on my team will play as normal..... if what you say is true then you should have no problem winning at least 60% of the games right? .... let's have at it... you think it's such an advantage why don't you test this theory of yours.....

[fwblb]

I am glad this is still a work in progress. however, i still don't see anything wrong with babysitting by a team mate in sequential doubles. i can see the point in freestyle. i only play freestyle if i made a mistake in joining it or accidentally set it up though. so, i don't have much experience in that type of game. i have seen numerous topics on people bending the rules in freestyle games. how about just completely remove freestyle if it causes all these problems?

truly, when my internet goes out, I can call two people on my cell phone - owen or warape, both of whom are regularly on my team. within my clan, i wouldn't have a problem sharing my pw with others, but how do i contact them if my internet is out?

i hope we can come up with something that works for everybody - or a better compromise at least.

[yeti_c]

I've got the uber solution to end all uber solutions...

2 scoreboards... 1 for Seq - 1 for Free...

That way we can just ignore freestyle games/points from the true game.

C.

[Timminz]

I've got the uber solution to end all uber solutions...

2 scoreboards... 1 for Seq - 1 for Free...

That way we can just ignore freestyle games/points from the true game.

C.

That seems like a good idea, but then it could lead to people wanting a separate scoreboard for teams, and then for different card options. Before you know it, people will be marrying barn-yard animals.

[jbrettlip]

I've got the uber solution to end all uber solutions...

2 scoreboards... 1 for Seq - 1 for Free...

That way we can just ignore freestyle games/points from the true game.

C.

That seems like a good idea, but then it could lead to people wanting a separate scoreboard for teams, and then for different card options. Before you know it, people will be marrying barn-yard animals.

I don't know why you had to take a cheap shot a Katy for marrying Cooper in this forum!


Seriously, though, about 10 posts back someone was saying you would need 4 babysitters for a quads game. That is the problem with the rule....I coudl take all the turns in a quads game for one team, as long as I wasnt' in it. So what is the point? Will the rule say everyone on the team must have a unique babysitter? Will there be a discounted premium babysitter option (can't start games, but cna play?) this is like DC debating th egas tax, it sounds good but accomplishes nothing. Make a rule for freestyle, leave sequential players alone.

[Timminz]

I've got the uber solution to end all uber solutions...

2 scoreboards... 1 for Seq - 1 for Free...

That way we can just ignore freestyle games/points from the true game.

C.

That seems like a good idea, but then it could lead to people wanting a separate scoreboard for teams, and then for different card options. Before you know it, people will be marrying barn-yard animals.

I don't know why you had to take a cheap shot a Katy for marrying Cooper in this forum!

I've never met either of those people, but I laughed really hard at that.

[detlef]

Seriously, though, about 10 posts back someone was saying you would need 4 babysitters for a quads game. That is the problem with the rule....I coudl take all the turns in a quads game for one team, as long as I wasnt' in it. So what is the point? Will the rule say everyone on the team must have a unique babysitter? Will there be a discounted premium babysitter option (can't start games, but cna play?) this is like DC debating th egas tax, it sounds good but accomplishes nothing. Make a rule for freestyle, leave sequential players alone.

OK, so what is this, loophole #783 in this stupid rule? How many do you guys want before we just scrap it and move on?

Freestyle games should be like NYC in Escape from NY. The last bastion of ruthlessness where lawlessness rules the day. Anything freaking goes. Oh, wait, that was NYC in 1977. Sorry, but you get the drift. Who cares about fairness in Freestyle? Certainly not the people who play it. So why should the latest in a long, long, long line of BS tactics that format has spawned trigger some needlessly complicated rule that affects other formats?

[RiskTycoon]

good call detlef.... this really is a freestyle issue and should be handled as such.... there is NO advantage to playing all the moves in a sequential team game.... someone give me some proof that the advantage exists .... anything! there is NO advantage and if you believe there is one .... then take me up on my challenge so i can prove you wrong!

[James Vazquez]

ok my last post here.

I'll try to answer most of your questions with What advantage is gained?
So i guess none of you have had a partner NOT do what you thought was the best move or NOT stop a fruitless attack or NOT fort to the area you felt needed forting. Or simply made a mistake....

The fact is your playing two accounts!!!!! You saw what the other team had done for two turns. When your playing one account most players only see half the moves. unless your watching everyturn you dont see every move. Playing two account you see a clear picture of the entire strategy. You dont have the worry of mistakes or misinterpratations of communications, or simply neglect. Team games are just that team games one person does not make a team.

If every person made perfect moves and had perfect communication then their would be no advantage. Fact is the communication is factor in winning a team game and one player playin two accounts eliminates any chance of mistakes in communication. It eliminates any gaps in communication. All of which happens in a REAL TEAM GAME.

THAT IS ONE ADVANTAGE!!

You asked for a way breaking that rule makes an advantage there it is. TEAM GAMES are for TEAMS. Two people working on a strategy toegether. For better or worse.

Now I'm not naive, I know no matter what is said in here certain people are gonna argue their side no matter how much effort I or anyone else puts into an explanation. Now however come up with a new bitch for the rule.

[detlef]

ok my last post here.

I'll try to answer most of your questions with What advantage is gained?
So i guess none of you have had a partner NOT do what you thought was the best move or NOT stop a fruitless attack or NOT fort to the area you felt needed forting. Or simply made a mistake....

The fact is your playing two accounts!!!!! You saw what the other team had done for two turns. When your playing one account most players only see half the moves. unless your watching everyturn you dont see every move. Playing two account you see a clear picture of the entire strategy. You dont have the worry of mistakes or misinterpratations of communications, or simply neglect. Team games are just that team games one person does not make a team.

If every person made perfect moves and had perfect communication then their would be no advantage. Fact is the communication is factor in winning a team game and one player playin two accounts eliminates any chance of mistakes in communication. It eliminates any gaps in communication. All of which happens in a REAL TEAM GAME.

THAT IS ONE ADVANTAGE!!

You asked for a way breaking that rule makes an advantage there it is. TEAM GAMES are for TEAMS. Two people working on a strategy toegether. For better or worse.

Now I'm not naive, I know no matter what is said in here certain people are gonna argue their side no matter how much effort I or anyone else puts into an explanation. Now however come up with a new bitch for the rule.

Well, that last part is only partially true. I will continue to argue until you guys put up a good argument and you have failed to do so. What you just described is not an advantage. It could be an advantage but it could also not. You are completely correct about some of the details. We've all likely had our partners do things that we wished they hadn't. That means, by definition, we've done things our partners likely wished we hadn't. Our partners have likely talked us out of doing something stupid or at very least shone another light on the subject.

So, one person making all the moves for his team may or may not be an advantage and may be to the detriment of the team. Sounds to me like a pretty stupid reason to enact a rule. Are we going to legislate against every thing that may or may not be used to an advantage but also might come back to bite you in the ass?

OK, let's just say that what you just described was an absolute advantage. How many people are really doing this? You guys act like there's just tons of examples of people taking all the turns for their team. Is that really the case? I know that both my doubles partner and I like to play, so neither of us would be too excited about the other making all the moves.

[yeti_c]

I'll try to answer most of your questions with What advantage is gained?
So i guess none of you have had a partner NOT do what you thought was the best move or NOT stop a fruitless attack or NOT fort to the area you felt needed forting. Or simply made a mistake....

The fact is your playing two accounts!!!!! You saw what the other team had done for two turns. When your playing one account most players only see half the moves. unless your watching everyturn you dont see every move. Playing two account you see a clear picture of the entire strategy. You dont have the worry of mistakes or misinterpratations of communications, or simply neglect. Team games are just that team games one person does not make a team.

If every person made perfect moves and had perfect communication then their would be no advantage. Fact is the communication is factor in winning a team game and one player playin two accounts eliminates any chance of mistakes in communication. It eliminates any gaps in communication. All of which happens in a REAL TEAM GAME.

This is a long standing argument that I've been having with one of my friends about Chess...

He's always going on about "best play"... and I always argue that people rarely play "best play" - they play what they think is "best play"... which is completely and very very different...

In Chess if everyone played "best play" then if you play as white you should either win or draw... and as black draw or lose... as going first gives you a huge advantage under those conditions.

C.

[jiminski]

ok my last post here.

Now I'm not naive, I know no matter what is said in here certain people are gonna argue their side no matter how much effort I or anyone else puts into an explanation. Now however come up with a new bitch for the rule.

Mine too James... i had asked for some closure on this and you offer it here.

So my last post is to say thank you for admitting in your official capacity that no amount of reasoned debate will change this rule and that we are in effect just 'bitching'.

Due to this being the case i accede to this inevitability and revert to my initial response as being the only viable option. I am now a cheat!
I suggest, as you deem this behaviour to have always been cheating, that my ban be retrospective and based upon previous misdemeanour's in playing Sequential games for my partners. I will find evidence for you if necessary.

thanks guys, later.

[James Vazquez]

ok my last post here.

Now I'm not naive, I know no matter what is said in here certain people are gonna argue their side no matter how much effort I or anyone else puts into an explanation. Now however come up with a new bitch for the rule.

Mine too James... i had asked for some closure on this and you offer it here.

So my last post is to say thank you for admitting in your official capacity that no amount of reasoned debate will change this rule and that we are in effect just 'bitching'.

Due to this being the case i accede to this inevitability and revert to my initial response as being the only viable option. I am now a cheat!
I suggest, as you deem this behaviour to have always been cheating, that my ban be retrospective and based upon previous misdemeanour's in playing Sequential games for my partners.

thanks guys, later.

Wow thanx jim i didnt know I got promoted....

Fact is i'm a chat mod here I have no powers outside the chat. I have a voice inside but I can assure you it carries no extra weight. All your contributions are equal to mine. Some of your were asking repeatedly for a advantage I pointed one out.
In my opinion, I dont think any actions on past offenses should be judged the same as future ones. In my opinion, noone should be considered a cheat for doing what some mods had said was acceptable. As far as I know, this is and never was a witchhunt but a discussion to advance the site. Since this thread is still open there is still debate and if a better emcompassing rule for team games can be found. I'm sure it will be considered.