Buffy the Vampire Slayer Game over-Town Won-Graduation Day

[Anarkistsdream]

Sorry, but I already said what would happen if he was wrong...

Unvote
Vote: Mandy

[Iliad]

Vote count

haggis-1-tail
strike-4-mandy, streaker, edoc, safari
mandy-1- anark

with 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Fircoal has replaced TWO.

[mandalorian2298]

Well seeing as I'm at l-3 and I'm not sure I'll get the answer I need from iliad quickly enough so I'm gonna go ahead and name claim. I am Rupert Giles. As far as everything else my role is actually fairly limited compared to what you would suspect from a major character...and further than that I need to confirm a few things with iliad...hopefully I haven't already said too much...

Fair enough, unless someone counterclaims, claiming Giles should put you above suspicion. unvote

SFOS Anark, for basicly voting me because I had a theory. What up with that?

[Anarkistsdream]

Well seeing as I'm at l-3 and I'm not sure I'll get the answer I need from iliad quickly enough so I'm gonna go ahead and name claim. I am Rupert Giles. As far as everything else my role is actually fairly limited compared to what you would suspect from a major character...and further than that I need to confirm a few things with iliad...hopefully I haven't already said too much...

Fair enough, unless someone counterclaims, claiming Giles should put you above suspicion. unvote

SFOS Anark, for basicly voting me because I had a theory. What up with that?

Well, if you are so good at pinning scummy tells to anybody, I worry about you doing it to another townie...

It's just one vote, Mandy... No need to worry.

[strike wolf]

I did a brief reread through some of aage's posts (whom Mandy replaced), there were a couple of things that seemed slightly scummy but overall his posts appeared to me to be town in nature and while Mandy may have been wrong in his assumption about me, the post would appear to show he did put effort into rereading the thread. So as of right now I am not inclined to think that Mandy is scum.

I'm more interested in Streaker, he laid low for all of day 2 and seemed to jump on the first bandwagon (almost blatantly) today. I also found a few posts he made to be a bit odd:

There has been a LOT of joke voting going on, so that makes it a little harder to get the facts straight.

First off, the bandwagon on TWO obviously started as a joke vote. He claimed maffia godmother, nobody is stupid enough to attract that kind of attention to himself early game (not even if you calculate a double-triple-reverse-psychology kinda thingy into it). So I'll buy the 'fake' claim there. People start jumping on him for the fake claim, still 'joking' actually.

But then this happens:

Enough of the bandwagon for a joke

Why would he wanna protect someone from what has obviously been a series of jokes that started on page 1? Even if it wasn't a joke vote, this kind of play is still standard for a Day 1, no?

commander picked up on this:

Enough of the bandwagon for a joke

Feeling the pressure that we might get your boss?

It's still a 'jokingly' answer, after which campin killer responds:

I am not the one to be ordered on who to kill by a woman

I find it a strange reply to the jokes so far. Suspicious at least to warrant further investigation.

A few posts down, campin continues his strange posts with this:

Sure, if you want to lose the only town hope.

He claims to be a hope to the town, what is a scumtell imo.

After these posts, there is a rather large exchange in posts and opinions between commander and fir. After this, his posts have been forgotten, burried by the exchange between commander and fir if you will.

This is the best lead I could find after rereading the thread.
Anything to add?

I find it weird that when someone claims to be very important to town without reason, the first thing you guys do is bandwagon on him. Why would a scummy say that?

Why would a townie claim that? Without any kind of pressure?

Cause he's a paranoid noob?

What I make of everything, is that he first requested the joke bw to stop. At that time there was no harm being done.

Then herk albeit jokingly, said: D2 lynch? aimed at campin.
That's when he responded the 'towns only hope' answer. It's a very premature claim, and we would like some kind of explanation. But you bring a good point forward, maybe he just acted noobishly.
Again, that's why i haven't even voted for him yet, only the FoS.

This is a couple in a series of posts where he goes after campin for trying to stop the joke wagon against two (something that only really makes sense if you believe the two people to be connected) but other than what can be inferred from the way he's attacking campin he never paints two as a possible scum (at the beginning he even says something where he says he didn't think two was scum). He's also being very careful about his vote against anyone as you see here. Just FOSing not biting on voting though he seems to feel fairly strongly that the person in question is at least worthy of a more thorough look and unlike my role I don't think he has a legitimate reason for that. Possibly trying to go after a powerful town role?

I see no need for an extension, as deadlines can help to get a stalled game moving. It for one, inspired me to post. Just don't have much to say at the moment.

So you don't see a need for extension, when the game has no lead, and a deadline coming up? As for the 'inspiration' to post, I don't see it anywhere. Not having much to say is kinda scummy
Your post has inspired me to get this stalled game moving.

Unvote Vote Vio

I find this post interesting he had been very much in support of going after campin and than labels that there are no leads as part of his post to switch his vote for vio which had been gaining steam before this. After this he went radio silent throughout day 2 and only came back on to the scene to join the bandwagon against me fairly blatantly as well in my opinion.

[safariguy5]

Yeah, looks like there's no counterclaim so I will unvote. And I seriously have an issue with that vote on mandy there AD. Mandy's trying to find scum and provided a case (however weak). You haven't really done anything to find the problem. I interpreted the original threat of voting mandy to be the sort of "if we lynch strike and he turns up town, we're killing you next". Nothing of the sort happened, so I was really surprised that you would vote him anyways.

vote AD

[Anarkistsdream]

Yeah, looks like there's no counterclaim so I will unvote. And I seriously have an issue with that vote on mandy there AD. Mandy's trying to find scum and provided a case (however weak). You haven't really done anything to find the problem. I interpreted the original threat of voting mandy to be the sort of "if we lynch strike and he turns up town, we're killing you next". Nothing of the sort happened, so I was really surprised that you would vote him anyways.

vote AD

Well, to be totally honest, we have NOTHING else to go on, and I have seen Mandalorian be SUPER helpful in games and end up being scum. He does it with perfection, making strong cases against people or groups of people, throwing off everybody in the game, and then winning the game with whatever group- mafia or third party- he was aligned with.

[Commander9]

Well, to be totally honest, we have NOTHING else to go on, and I have seen Mandalorian be SUPER helpful in games and end up being scum. He does it with perfection, making strong cases against people or groups of people, throwing off everybody in the game, and then winning the game with whatever group- mafia or third party- he was aligned with.

To be fair, he definitely has a point - I've read some of the old games and he usually puts in the most effort when he has something to hide and he has been extremely active so far. There are no leads anymore (I'm tired of pursuing TWO as from what I've seen you guys think it was not sufficient, so I might as well drop it until something else comes up), so pressuring Mandy a bit might not be such a bad idea after all.

Vote Mandalorian.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

lol I don't see how you guys can actually consider that a scumtell. He made a case, it didn't hold water. Now he's scum? It's sort of discouraging if you're going to make a case only to be voted on after it doesn't pan out. Right now I'm finding Commander and Anarkist to be the scummiest. I will try to make a case tomorrow (rl) on one of them.

-Tails

[strike wolf]

Hmm...I would like to hear an opinion from someone else who knows mandy better than I do (I've played in a few games with him but I think he's been town in all but one where he was lynched early...) but I'm tempted to agree with tails as far as I do not understand the argument against mandy. He's been active and formed cases against people as scum in the past...I think that argument only really holds weight if it is something he doesn't do as town and from my limited experience playing with mandy he does make cases as town as well. So I'm not really sure why you and commander are going after him for that.

[edocsil]

The old guys let him make his crazy-ass cases, as often he is right. Generally if he is wrong they kill him because they are worried that he is playing them, as he often is when he is scum.

[mandalorian2298]

Ok, this IS going to sound scummy, since I am accusing people who are after me, but AD and Commander have been marching side by side this whole game. And seriously, AD's logic here is "if he is helpful, then he is scum" meaning that he would prefer me to be less helpful to prove my inocence. That is the scummiest and (and largly untrue, since I play agressivly no matter which side I am on) piece of metagaming that I have ever seen. Finally, please not that AD opted to vote for Strike Wolf, based (presumably) on his opinion that I am scum, which should mean that Strike Wolf is town, just to secure a lynch on me on the morrow.

Or, more likely, AD knew that Strike Wolf is not scum (or at least, that he is not in his Mafia) and he jumped to an opportunity for a double play on me and Strike Wolf. As I have mentioned previously, while I was rereading the game, I grew suspicious over AD and Commander, but the case aginst Strike Wolf seemed stronger. However, at this moment AD seems to me to be scummiest by far.

vote Anarkistsdream

Seeing how this is de facto a revenge vote, I understand that it looks suspicious as hell. It also means that this Day is probably going to end with the hanging of either me or AD. Should it be me, I ask that, based on my towniness, which will be revieled if I am lynched, you lynch AD on the next Day.

[Anarkistsdream]

All you guys have to do is ask me to claim. I don't mind at all.

I still think Mandlorian was asked to replace a role because that role was scummy and he needed to be replaced.

Notice that Principal Schneider didn't need to be replaced because he wasn't that big of a deal. When the mod will kill certain people and not others, it is quite easy to deduce who the important players are.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Unfortunately the maount of inactives has been a bit too high for a while and I only had two replacements. So due to random.org:
mandy has replaced aage(who asked to be replaced)
pmchugh has replaced campin killer

It was randomly decided who gets killed.

I don't think I've ever played with AD before, so I can't really tell if he's acting scummy or of he usually acts in such a ... "whimsical" manner. I mean saying "either your case turns out scum or we'll lynch you" is bad enough, without all the stuff that followed.

Any insight from people who've played more with him?

[Anarkistsdream]

Unfortunately the maount of inactives has been a bit too high for a while and I only had two replacements. So due to random.org:
mandy has replaced aage(who asked to be replaced)
pmchugh has replaced campin killer

It was randomly decided who gets killed.

I don't think I've ever played with AD before, so I can't really tell if he's acting scummy or of he usually acts in such a ... "whimsical" manner. I mean saying "either your case turns out scum or we'll lynch you" is bad enough, without all the stuff that followed.

Any insight from people who've played more with him?

Are you truly going to tell me that he would have allowed Buffy or Willow to die had they been inactive, and not saved them? They are power characters. I believe he used random.org, sure, but he still had to have premeditated plans.

[Commander9]

Okay, now let me elaborate on what I have said before since people don't seem to understand me. Mandy has so far been really active and trying portray a really pro-town role, however while he definitely put up a lot of effort into his posts, out of 3 points, only one of them had any validity to it. He has so far been quite quick to accuse and post a lot of posts, which is probably what an experienced scum would do. I have not said that I know he's a scum, but I think that he's a good lead to pursue and try out.

You all jumped on AD because while he didn't put it all that well, he tried to pressure Mandy. If he didn't came out, what would you have all done? Just went for no-lynch as there are no good suspects and let mafia rage over? Mandy is nowhere near death and he only got little pressure and you can see how a lot of people quickly jump into his defence. Possible scummates?

From what I've seen in the past, usually his points are much more though-out and definitely have a lot in them, while this time it's a bit different, thus leading me to think that he may not actually be interested in finding scum and has chosen a person at random and just went for him. Strike has projected town waves, so I didn't vote for him, but his BW has escalated rather quickly.

I guess my main point is that at the moment, there are no really good leads and Mandy's is as good as anyone's. With his defence and few others jumping there, now I want to pursue it even more.

Ok, this IS going to sound scummy, since I am accusing people who are after me, but AD and Commander have been marching side by side this whole game. And seriously, AD's logic here is "if he is helpful, then he is scum" meaning that he would prefer me to be less helpful to prove my inocence. That is the scummiest and (and largly untrue, since I play agressivly no matter which side I am on) piece of metagaming that I have ever seen. Finally, please not that AD opted to vote for Strike Wolf, based (presumably) on his opinion that I am scum, which should mean that Strike Wolf is town, just to secure a lynch on me on the morrow.

Or, more likely, AD knew that Strike Wolf is not scum (or at least, that he is not in his Mafia) and he jumped to an opportunity for a double play on me and Strike Wolf. As I have mentioned previously, while I was rereading the game, I grew suspicious over AD and Commander, but the case aginst Strike Wolf seemed stronger. However, at this moment AD seems to me to be scummiest by far.

vote Anarkistsdream

Then why didn't you mention anything about "our team" before? Interesting.

Furthermore, as far as AD goes, while he does play scummy, I've seen that he usually does shift rather fast and this is nothing new. I'm fairly certain that he's just a bit over-zealous townie, but I guess you'll have to lynch him to see it.

Seeing how this is de facto a revenge vote, I understand that it looks suspicious as hell. It also means that this Day is probably going to end with the hanging of either me or AD. Should it be me, I ask that, based on my towniness, which will be revieled if I am lynched, you lynch AD on the next Day.

This got me extremely interested - so there are no other choices? Seems like you're desperate now - there're such things as character claiming, which can easily get you hook off, but now you are just setting him up. I'm sorry Sir, but I don't really like what you've done here so far and how you've played and my vote will stay on you.

[safariguy5]

The reason I voted for AD in the first place was partly due to the reaction to the case that Mandy put forward. It wasn't like Mandy staked his life to the success of lynching strike. He simply put forward some ideas as to why he thought strike was scum. Therefore, to then turn around use the fact that mandy was wrong in his case against strike solely as your evidence for voting him makes it look like you're trying to squash people's abilities to accuse other people. It's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that mafia would try to discourage discussion by jumping on any misdirected town case. In this case, no lynch of strike occurred, so I thought it was a "no harm no foul" situation.

[Commander9]

The reason I voted for AD in the first place was partly due to the reaction to the case that Mandy put forward. It wasn't like Mandy staked his life to the success of lynching strike. He simply put forward some ideas as to why he thought strike was scum. Therefore, to then turn around use the fact that mandy was wrong in his case against strike solely as your evidence for voting him makes it look like you're trying to squash people's abilities to accuse other people. It's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that mafia would try to discourage discussion by jumping on any misdirected town case. In this case, no lynch of strike occurred, so I thought it was a "no harm no foul" situation.

You don't consider a town outing his role a harm? Lets take a hypothetical situation: no one tells anything about Mandy's thoughts and he makes another case, we vote, person roleclaims, we back off. Then rinse and repeat. We'd have done 3 outings a day and decided to go to the next day and one of the power roles are killed by scum. While I don't know whether Mandy's a scum or not, but I think that some pressure on him could help us quite a bit. From what I've noticed, it's not rate for the Mafia Godfathers (Haggis @ Briarsburg) to be aggressive, because they know that investigation on them would bring no fruits. I wouldn't be too surprised that this is what Mandy is doing.

[safariguy5]

The reason I voted for AD in the first place was partly due to the reaction to the case that Mandy put forward. It wasn't like Mandy staked his life to the success of lynching strike. He simply put forward some ideas as to why he thought strike was scum. Therefore, to then turn around use the fact that mandy was wrong in his case against strike solely as your evidence for voting him makes it look like you're trying to squash people's abilities to accuse other people. It's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that mafia would try to discourage discussion by jumping on any misdirected town case. In this case, no lynch of strike occurred, so I thought it was a "no harm no foul" situation.

You don't consider a town outing his role a harm? Lets take a hypothetical situation: no one tells anything about Mandy's thoughts and he makes another case, we vote, person roleclaims, we back off. Then rinse and repeat. We'd have done 3 outings a day and decided to go to the next day and one of the power roles are killed by scum. While I don't know whether Mandy's a scum or not, but I think that some pressure on him could help us quite a bit. From what I've noticed, it's not rate for the Mafia Godfathers (Haggis @ Briarsburg) to be aggressive, because they know that investigation on them would bring no fruits. I wouldn't be too surprised that this is what Mandy is doing.

Well, let's say I presented a case on someone and it led to that person outing a town role too. Would that make me the mafia gf too? A good number of cases against people end up with some sort of town or non mafia claim (Matrix Mafia) and we can't reasonably fault people for suspecting other people. If everyone is afraid of pressuring someone, this basically nullifies the possibility of counterclaiming and forcing mafia to come up with fakeclaims which is how we usually catch them in the absence of investigation results.

[Commander9]

Well, let's say I presented a case on someone and it led to that person outing a town role too. Would that make me the mafia gf too? A good number of cases against people end up with some sort of town or non mafia claim (Matrix Mafia) and we can't reasonably fault people for suspecting other people. If everyone is afraid of pressuring someone, this basically nullifies the possibility of counterclaiming and forcing mafia to come up with fakeclaims which is how we usually catch them in the absence of investigation results.

No, I did not say that. However, mandy after failing the 1st time, comes back straight away and attacks a person who voted for him (he says it's not an OMGUS and while I think it's partly true, I'd guess it's just that - partly true).

[strike wolf]

ok...this is probably going to sound ridiculous but...is it possible both Mandy and Nark are trying to deceive us? As Nark said mandy was picked over two townies of little importance but Nark was also selected to replace a character before mine and seeing as the Herk had been banned, he should have been an obvious choice to be replaced so could this possibly mean that Nark also got an important, possibly scummy role? Secondly, one tactic of experienced scum is to bicker amongst themselves and avoid fitting any of the crucial criteria for connecting themselves to each other and while it would seem strange for these two to go at it this fervently to the point where one or the other could easily end up lynched it could potentially buy the other one to survive long enough to survive until end game...I mean I may be over thinking this but I know that Mandy and Nark have been playing mafia longer than anyone else in this thread. And yes I know it sounds ridiculous (it sounds ridiculous to me too) but I can't shake it from my mind...

[Commander9]

ok...this is probably going to sound ridiculous but...is it possible both Mandy and Nark are trying to deceive us? As Nark said mandy was picked over two townies of little importance but Nark was also selected to replace a character before mine and seeing as the Herk had been banned, he should have been an obvious choice to be replaced so could this possibly mean that Nark also got an important, possibly scummy role? Secondly, one tactic of experienced scum is to bicker amongst themselves and avoid fitting any of the crucial criteria for connecting themselves to each other and while it would seem strange for these two to go at it this fervently to the point where one or the other could easily end up lynched it could potentially buy the other one to survive long enough to survive until end game...I mean I may be over thinking this but I know that Mandy and Nark have been playing mafia longer than anyone else in this thread. And yes I know it sounds ridiculous (it sounds ridiculous to me too) but I can't shake it from my mind...

While the theory is really interesting, I think it may be a bit too far-fetched. Do you think they could really be THAT good? Theoretically, it's definitely possible and while I would love this to be true and us being able to catch the scum, I'm having a really hard time understanding that this would indeed be true.

[strike wolf]

I actually kind of want to believe that but considering the source (yes I still find you suspicious and it's only increased as you have come to Nark's defense) and the fact that the statement is that you can't believe they're "that good" I'm a bit incredulous as to your statement.

[strike wolf]

ok...this is probably going to sound ridiculous but...is it possible both Mandy and Nark are trying to deceive us? As Nark said mandy was picked over two townies of little importance but Nark was also selected to replace a character before mine and seeing as the Herk had been banned, he should have been an obvious choice to be replaced so could this possibly mean that Nark also got an important, possibly scummy role? Secondly, one tactic of experienced scum is to bicker amongst themselves and avoid fitting any of the crucial criteria for connecting themselves to each other and while it would seem strange for these two to go at it this fervently to the point where one or the other could easily end up lynched it could potentially buy the other one enough credibility to survive long enough to survive until end game...I mean I may be over thinking this but I know that Mandy and Nark have been playing mafia longer than anyone else in this thread. And yes I know it sounds ridiculous (it sounds ridiculous to me too) but I can't shake it from my mind...

Ebwop in bold

[/]

Well, I personally think there are some fair points here, and plenty of contradictory ones too, for one I agree with GA the strike case was pretty weak, but IDK, I don't really know the theme too well. Also it's hard to bring up a valid case when one in every two players is a replace for an inactive.
Thus at the start of day three we had essentially no cases out there. Mandy makes a case, and AD essentially says it's pure gold, but if it doesn't catch scum we need to off Mandy. What sort of logic is that? It's essentially saying "I agree with every point you make, heck they can even be my own! " but at the same time saying it is written by a bogus pure scum attempting to frame someone.
This coupled with the whole "no cases" thing makes me think he's just trying to jump on anyone smart enough to make a case in this situation.
Scum doesn't really seem to need to make a case in this situation, it seems most of us are in the dark when it comes to cases so far....

also Commander claims in his vote that he's read up on old games to metagame against mandy's style, not calling you a liar, but seriously, who does this?
I think I would go insane if I just read the entire first page of this forum.

Mandy counters by making a case on AD, to which AD responds

All you guys have to do is ask me to claim. I don't mind at all.

I don't like this, it seems odd to totally not care when asked to claim, it makes it illogical for us to pressure him for a claim, thus halting the votes, but at the same time if I say "go ahead and claim" it makes me look like some overzealous role-fisher, maybe I'm overthinking it...

Also Comm, would you say that we should pressure mandy because he acts too townish when he's scum, rather than pressure AD because he acts too scummy always?

I'm not going to completely defend mandalorian, like I said, the case didn't make sense, but AD was the first to go with it, with a post that told town "we're going to catch scum either way, hop on!" fueling the situation way faster than normal. You can't throw all the blame on the original poster if you don't stand against it.
Vote Anarkistsdream