CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

[IcePack]

The CDs would rather all key points were voted on, but the decision on what goes to vote is Dakos

Fair enough thanks

[josko.ri]

If there are, say, 36 clans and a vote is held on whether to grant byes to the Top 4 seeds I could just imagine the result coming out 4 in favour and 32 against. Some things just shouldn't be put to a vote and this is probably one example.

This is not true. One of players who proposed system with byes is qwert from MYTH, so how then top 4 want byes and all others do not want it? Clans representatives are capable enough to think reasonably about total clan area benefit instead just about benefit of their clan. Giving 4 byes to top clans (or giving 8 byes to top clans) opens more space to lower clans to face clan #9, 10, 11... instead of clans #1,2,3... in round 1. I am sure some of lower clans would be more happy to have more equally playing field in round 1 rather than being hard kicked by top clans, in which case they would for sure support byes.

I have some arguing with josko about formats, but read all above i find that he its right, he say that put all proposed format on vote, and then we will get what people want to play. Everybody who have bracket system to show, just display in vote:
A-format by ???
B-format by ???
C-format by ???
D-format by ???
E-format by ???
F-format by ???
----------------------------
People vote,and discusion over format are over,plain and simple

qwert,
I disagree. There are a lot of different formats that have been proposed, and a lot of them are subtle variations of each other. If you start with deciding how many clans get byes, you immediately narrow the field a finite number of proposals. If you then decide whether the seeds are determined by random draw in some form or strictly by the clan rankings, you narrow the options again. There are only a handful of people that pay enough attention to this thread to be able to follow all the arguments for the various options, and if you throw a dozen different options out, you're not likely to get a good informed response. On the other hand, if you present a couple simple decisions (byes or no byes, random draws or rankings for seeds), it will shape the final decision without all the confusion.

That is why there is old good system of not awarding winner until the winner gets 50%+ votes, even if that requires 2 rounds of voting instead of 1 round. With deciding and narrowing anything you limit originality of ideas. Be open minded and allow people to construct their ideas. If they are not able to do so, their fault, but they at least deserve chance to do so.

[Chariot of Fire]

It was an exaggerated argument Josko, used to stress a point. It wasn't a factual statement hence there is no question of truth or falsehood.

[Foxglove]

1. Nearly every event has run into some issues one way or the other. Everything from CL1 to CC 3. I could spend time pointing out things, like Chuuuuck going MIA, or wpbjr giving us hell then leaving. Or clans dropping from CL 2 in Div 2. How about TOFU vs KORT Time 1.

I asked this before but haven't received any answers - can someone from the CD team please give me a specific example of how CD ownership (whatever that means, other than that you get to insist on rules) will prevent any previous issue that came up?

1. chuuuck going MIA - CD ownership would have changed nothing in this case. Dako stepped in and the problems were solved.
2. WPBRJ being insane / clans dropping from CL2 - I think the league is run very differently, so I won't comment on those issues. I'm only talking about the cup.
3. TOFU v KORT in Ccup1 - how would CD ownership of the event have changed anything? CDs could have locked the threads earlier. It was horrible, but that issue arose over rules that were already included in the very first post of the cup thread. And those, ahem, very unpopular rules were subsequently changed in the next edition of the cup.

What Nicky is saying is that the 2 biggest events need to be taken over by the CD's. That does not mean we will run them but that does mean we will have a hand in these events.

As far as the cup goes, I totally disagree. Apparently I am the minority, or at least one of the few vocal ones.

Just like in anything there has to be some rules.

The first post of every cup thread is a giant list of spoiler-sectioned rules.

By ownership these events belong to clans themselves.

That's fine, but someone has to make decisions and do the work. What I'm hearing loud and clear is that the CDs want to make the decisions while other people do the work. I wish you guys would just admit that very specifically.

CD's are here to make sure these events follow the same general principle as they have in the past.

As stated above, the CD's are here to make sure this cup remains pretty close to the previous 3.

No, you're insisting on adding rules and requiring decision-making power for the CDs that conflict with the wishes of the event organizer. That is most definitely not the way the cups were run in the past.

Also I do not think anybody complained about it being unfair to any clans before

So why are the CDs insisting on control and ownership?

CDF is not the same as the CLA. CLA lacked that true leadership once jpcloet was gone. (No offense to anybody else who helped run it) CDF has that with the CD team and Nicky heading it up. CDF has proven to be very effective as far as voting goes and other issues within the clan world.

What kind of specific issues has CDF proven to be effective at handling? I honestly have no idea - I just see people in this thread referencing CDF votes and decisions. Perhaps it would be a good idea to create a thread in the clan area that lists CDF votes and results. When I think of the CDF, what comes to mind is decision making by committee that has only resulted in a subjective excessively wordy sitting policy and an equally subjective card timing-out policy. Neither of those fill me with confidence.

There are 3 things that the CD's have requested. All matches be 41 games so everybody who wins can get a medal. People seem to like medals. That clans be in CDF so they can get a vote when needed. And last that we keep the rule about timing out in.

Requests are totally reasonable. So they are for Dako to consider whether to include or not? It was my previous impression that those things were demands.

I know you and me do not agree on this one but it is something we want to keep in to keep it fair to all.

How is it more fair to include a lengthy and subjective rule (with subjective punishments) than to let the site games work as designed?

You are going to have to trust us CD's to make a sound ruling if needed.

Perhaps it would be most fair to create a situation in which no rulings need to be made, and the games only need to be played - and the site will enforce consistent rules for every single turn of every single game. No questions, no debates - we will know exactly how it works. Doesn't that sound perfect? Ideal? Fantastically even ground for every clan? I have good news for you - that situation exists RIGHT NOW, without any intervention at all!

You will see that we CD's are not out to wreck any event or to make life on the person who is running the event hard. We are just keeping everything in line. We CD's have taken ownership of these 2 events, but that does not mean we are going to run every single aspect of them.

I believe that the CDs have the best of intentions. I just don't think that you guys are fulfilling them very well. As I said before, I believe that the CDs should support the clans, not play big brother.

We are here to step in in case something happens, such as the recent TOFU vs KORT VOTK Game. Dako could not rule on that game since he is TOFU.

Here's another way in which a perfectly even-handed situation can result: we let the result of all games stand, unless they somehow break rules already agreed upon. And there you go! No need for a ruling. Everyone is treated exactly the same - what could be more fair? It's everything that the CDs want.

Edited a thousand times because I'm incapable of proof-reading.

[Foxglove]

In regards to other matters Neither the cup or league had an owner. Dako very kindly stepped in the latter stages of the cup and ran it for an absent Chuuuuck. This was his tourney. So yes the CDs are overseeing both to make sure clans get a say. And that the tournaments are run for the better of the whole clan world. To make sure these tourneys run to time and any issues that arise are dealt with fairly. No we are not running them, all we insisted on was that two original cup rules stayed.

The timing out card rule was definitely not an original cup rule. So you are insisting on additional rules, and you are insisting that the tournament organizer make decisions that fall in line with what the CDs want.

Dako is charged with bringing about everything else in the cup. As long as the final format is fair and is what the majority of clans want, we have no issues.

Perfect, then this situation allows us to not include the arbitrary timing out card rule. As I explained previously, here is how it is completely fair and impartial:

Perhaps it would be most fair to create a situation in which no rulings need to be made, and the games only need to be played - and the site will enforce consistent rules for every single turn of every single game. No questions, no debates - we will know exactly how it works. Doesn't that sound perfect? Ideal? Fantastically even ground for every clan? I have good news for you - that situation exists RIGHT NOW, without any intervention at all!

I fail to see what the drama is. We are trying to advocate democracy and give clans a say by overseeing these events. No one complained about our input in the league, and everyone will again be complaining when rules are just made up mid comp, are poorly thought out and executed without discussion, this has happened in past comps, and won't happen again with the CDs overseeing.

LOL - you believe that the simple fact that the CDs declared ownership and the ability to arbitrarily make subjective decisions will prevent future complaints?

I am not trying to cause drama. I have legitimate questions and have asked for specific examples in response to CD statements. I haven't received that, which is why I keep posting.

[chemefreak]

I am not trying to cause drama. I have legitimate questions and have asked for specific examples in response to CD statements. I haven't received that, which is why I keep posting.

We get it. You hate CDs. Let's move on. All you are doing is cluttering up the thread.

Also, the next time you double post, you will receive proper site discipline.

[IcePack]

If Dako mAkes a ruling on punishment, that CD's disagree with are CD's going to overrule him?

[IcePack]

I am not trying to cause drama. I have legitimate questions and have asked for specific examples in response to CD statements. I haven't received that, which is why I keep posting.

We get it. You hate CDs. Let's move on. All you are doing is cluttering up the thread.

A poor response to a well thought out, written, and detailed polite post. I would expect more from a CD. Especially since previously mentioned CD's (as a group) are taking "ownership" of the event.

[chemefreak]

I am not trying to cause drama. I have legitimate questions and have asked for specific examples in response to CD statements. I haven't received that, which is why I keep posting.

We get it. You hate CDs. Let's move on. All you are doing is cluttering up the thread.

A poor response to a well thought out, written, and detailed polite post.

Stop the double posting.

[chemefreak]

We trust that Dako will make the right calls. However, we reserve the right to overrule him if necessary.

The timing out rule seems pretty straight forward. I don't get where all this is coming from or where it is going.

And yes, I am allowed to double post.

[IcePack]

I am not trying to cause drama. I have legitimate questions and have asked for specific examples in response to CD statements. I haven't received that, which is why I keep posting.

We get it. You hate CDs. Let's move on. All you are doing is cluttering up the thread.

A poor response to a well thought out, written, and detailed polite post.

Stop the double posting.

I'm posting from a phone which makes it near impossible to edit together all the responses from different people. Glad you ignored the substance of the post though!

[Foxglove]

I am not trying to cause drama. I have legitimate questions and have asked for specific examples in response to CD statements. I haven't received that, which is why I keep posting.

We get it. You hate CDs. Let's move on. All you are doing is cluttering up the thread.

Is that a demand, a request, or a suggestion? When it comes from a CD it's apparently very unclear.

Also, the next time you double post, you will receive proper site discipline.

Err, what? Is this a joke? Why do I have to respond to different people in the same post? I refuse.

I hope that you'll have a vote on how to properly discipline me though, in a way that's fair to everyone, and exactly the same as before, but different, and takes everyone's wishes in account.

[Foxglove]

We trust that Dako will make the right calls. However, we reserve the right to overrule him if necessary.

The timing out rule seems pretty straight forward. I don't get where all this is coming from or where it is going.

And yes, I am allowed to double post.

I am not trying to cause drama. I have legitimate questions and have asked for specific examples in response to CD statements. I haven't received that, which is why I keep posting.

[IcePack]

We trust that Dako will make the right calls. However, we reserve the right to overrule him if necessary.

The timing out rule seems pretty straight forward. I don't get where all this is coming from or where it is going.

And yes, I am allowed to double post.

So - Dako does all the work. But it's under CD "ownership", and CD's can overturn his decisions, and implement rules into the event.

If its an official clan event, you guys are owners, why don't YOU put in the work and make all decisions? There's no point in Dako pretending to run it for you.

Double post? Sorry I didn't notice you double posting, im not going out of my way to be a dick like some....

IcePack

[Doc_Brown]

Err, what? Is this a joke? Why do I have to respond to different people in the same post? I refuse.

I hope that you'll have a vote on how to properly discipline me though, in a way that's fair to everyone, and exactly the same as before, but different, and takes everyone's wishes in account.

I propose that Dako decide the punishment, then the CDs can overrule him if necessary.

[IcePack]

Err, what? Is this a joke? Why do I have to respond to different people in the same post? I refuse.

I hope that you'll have a vote on how to properly discipline me though, in a way that's fair to everyone, and exactly the same as before, but different, and takes everyone's wishes in account.

I propose that Dako decide the punishment, then the CDs can overrule him if necessary.

Hahahah+1

[Foxglove]

Err, what? Is this a joke? Why do I have to respond to different people in the same post? I refuse.

I hope that you'll have a vote on how to properly discipline me though, in a way that's fair to everyone, and exactly the same as before, but different, and takes everyone's wishes in account.

I propose that Dako decide the punishment, then the CDs can overrule him if necessary.

Hahahah+1

Only if it's fair to everyone!

[chemefreak]

I just think this is pretty simple. The CDs have to stay in the loop on everything so the Cup doesn't fall apart. We all trusted chuuuuuck to stick around and he didn't. So we assisted Dako in continuing the prior cup. At this point, the clan world has two big events. This is one of them. Dako does not have to run it if he does not want to.

As for the involvement of the CDs, I agree that it should be minimal. Hopefully, once the cup starts, we won't have anything at all to do with it. But, from past experience, this probably won't be the case. As such, the decision was made to get involved from the outset. I guess I just don't see what the big deal is all about.

[IcePack]

I just think this is pretty simple. The CDs have to stay in the loop on everything so the Cup doesn't fall apart. We all trusted chuuuuuck to stick around and he didn't. So we assisted Dako in continuing the prior cup. At this point, the clan world has two big events. This is one of them. Dako does not have to run it if he does not want to.

As for the involvement of the CDs, I agree that it should be minimal. Hopefully, once the cup starts, we won't have anything at all to do with it. But, from past experience, this probably won't be the case. As such, the decision was made to get involved from the outset. I guess I just don't see what the big deal is all about.

Im pretty sure if asked Dako could come up with a "backup" organizer fairly easily.
The Cup is not hard to run.

Minimal involvement would be the way it was. Adding 6 new CD opinions (since you 6 don't even agree) just adds to many people controlling one event. Dako can run it fine without CD involvement, and call upon CD's if needed as per before.

If Dako disappeared his self appointed successor can handle things I imagine. Pretty simple indeed.

IcePack

[Foxglove]

I just think this is pretty simple. The CDs have to stay in the loop on everything so the Cup doesn't fall apart. We all trusted chuuuuuck to stick around and he didn't. So we assisted Dako in continuing the prior cup.

This is totally reasonable, thank you!

At this point, the clan world has two big events. This is one of them. Dako does not have to run it if he does not want to.

As for the involvement of the CDs, I agree that it should be minimal. Hopefully, once the cup starts, we won't have anything at all to do with it. But, from past experience, this probably won't be the case. As such, the decision was made to get involved from the outset. I guess I just don't see what the big deal is all about.

Except for helping transition threads and permissions for the CCup3 from chuuuuck to Dako I don't see that CDs needed to be involved in the running of any of the previous editions of the cup. They most definitely needed to be involved in locking threads and preventing people from exceeding their unpleasantness quota, but managing war threads to me is very different from imposing rules on the cup.

I guess it's not really a huge deal - but I found it disturbing to see so many references to the CDs owning the cup and deciding that they get to override decisions of the organizer. I wanted more clarification on how that came about, and why, and what exactly it meant. And what I really wanted was specific examples of why that's necessary. And when you and nicky and bruce post there are inconsistencies - which makes me feel like you guys don't have a unified understanding of what your involvement is either. So I've been posting because I like things to be very clear, and I like questions to be answered.

I haven't been posting to insult people who are volunteering their time for this site. I have also given a lot of hours to the site (writing and supporting scripts), so I understand that volunteering is totally a thankless job. But you guys did volunteer, so you're in the position to make things clear and answer questions. And I don't think that asking for consistency and clarity is unreasonable.

[jetsetwilly]

So to move this forward the key remaining point on the cup format is simply around the draw, seeding and any byes. Dako I think it's over to you to try to look through this rather crowded thread and work out whether there are a number of options you would consider being voted on. We can detail them all here before the reps then vote. I think there is enough varied opinion in this thread to warrant more than one option. Having said that this thread is principally populated by a handful of people and I think we probably scare everyone else off!

[eddie2]

Some things were not up for debate, such as being a member of CDF. That is a simple task that everybody can preform and it also ensures when a vote is needed everybody can have a say. Things like making sure all wars are able to have privs, and medals(things people like) was another thing we will not bend on. Unless the whole format changed, which I do not think most people want.

so can i ask presume then that since you are going to force a clan to join a user group to take part in this event that you are going to allow whoever is the reps for a clan in this event you are going to give them have access to the cdf on the terms they only post in the ccup 4 threads. or do you expect the 1 rep in there to update the tourney rep for there clan on every post made ???

and i will go back to my original post of it looks like you guys are just using dako as a general dogs body and he will have no form of control over this event.

ow and ps was there a vote with clans agreeing to force clans who did not want in the group having to join to take part in this.

[Dako]

It's ok, I read this thread every time I see a new response here. So it's not like I am staying out of the loop.

I would like to highlight few points though.

We all trusted chuuuuuck to stick around and he didn't. So we assisted Dako in continuing the prior cup.

I would like to say that this assistance was making admins (Andy at that moment) change the OP of CCup thread from Chuck to myself. I asked for that so we don't lose the history and Andy kindly obliged.


And one more thing. Even if I go MIA - there is zero percent chance that CCup will be abandoned. Chuck disappeared in July. After that the games went for some time and in early August I stepped in when it was clear chuck will not get back and the next round has to be started pretty soon. It was a no-brainer for me that we need somebody to set the dates and schedules. If I mysteriously disappear this year - somebody will immediately pick CCup after me the same way I did. I am 100% sure of that. And it will be some other clan-experienced individual who is trusted by the majority of clan community.

It is a very strange and shady to suggest that you need ownership of the CCup just because it's host can disappear. Let me phrase it like this - I don't mind with CDs taking ownership of CCup, but not before its host actually disappears. Right now it sounds to me that you already discuss who will get my shoes, who will get my sword, who will get my vehicle after I die, in front of me, still being alive.
Do whatever you want after host disappears, but not before that. You will have complete rulebook, with schedules and seeding and most of the work done - just pick it up and finish it if the host goes MIA.


============

I will post the next draft of rules tomorrow. Stay tuned.

[Vid_FISO]

Right now it sounds to me that you already discuss who will get my shoes, who will get my sword, who will get my vehicle after I die, in front of me, still being alive.

Got anything actually worth having?

[Dako]

A sword, a motorcycle and a pet bear. Fancy anything?