Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[silvanricky]

Actually my thoughts were that he is a flaming homosexual.

Damn just when I was starting to like you unriggable you go and post some intolerant bullshit like that. What do you have against gays?

[beezer]

Actually my thoughts were that he is a flaming homosexual.

I don't want to start another fiasco like we had with DangerBoy, but I think it's warranted sometimes to identify someone when they have nothing but hatred in their heart.

Unriggable definitely fits the bill.

[DangerBoy]

Actually my thoughts were that he is a flaming homosexual.

I don't want to start another fiasco like we had with DangerBoy, but I think it's warranted sometimes to identify someone when they have nothing but hatred in their heart.

Unriggable definitely fits the bill.

Well all I can do is apologize again and try to calmly debate against those I don't agree with. Perhaps he'll see what he's doing is hateful - maybe not.

CoffeeCream how are you doing?

[daddy1gringo]

Nice idea, but that still makes us humans nothing more than machines that function according to preset mathematical functions. Change the input and the output becomes different, but the function itself remains the same, static, unable to change itself.

A very bleak vision I think.

I’m sorry, MeDeFe, I think I misunderstood what you wrote, because you misunderstood part of what I wrote.

Outside of what I originally replied, about my analogy not being an exact description of the way things are, there’s this.

I’m not saying the changes God makes in other cells thereby change the choice I made back to what he wanted me to do. I’m saying his changes bring the end result, and other critical points back on track, but my choice has other consequences in the meantime.

[Examples]

Hope this helps clear up how with a mind and perspective as great as the God who created the minds of Aristotle, Gallileo, DaVinci, Goethe, DesCartes, Einstein and Hawking, there doesn’t have to be a contradiction between free will and omniscience.

I reread your original post and I misunderstood you when I read it first, however, the problem I originally pointed out still remains: if god knows what we are going to do before we do it, choice becomes a logical impossibility.

Are we talking about the same post? Because I just spent a good deal of time and mental energy explaining how that's not the case. If you disagree with what I said and want to debate it, that's one thing. But just pretending I never said it is another entirely.

[MeDeFe]

I think we are, while you presented a nice idea of how a contest between god and the devil with the ultimate goal of damnation or salvation for all of humanity might look, but neither you, nor anyone else for that matter, has so far argued against the logical conclusion that if god knows what we are going to do we cannot choose to do anything else. I think the closest anyone came was to say that god doesn't make us do what we do, he only knows what we will do, in reply to which I explained that he doesn't have to make us do anything, simply knowing is enough to make free will a logical impossibility.

[Timotheos]

I reread your original post and I misunderstood you when I read it first, however, the problem I originally pointed out still remains: if god knows what we are going to do before we do it, choice becomes a logical impossibility.

Are we talking about the same post? Because I just spent a good deal of time and mental energy explaining how that's not the case. If you disagree with what I said and want to debate it, that's one thing. But just pretending I never said it is another entirely.

I've been readin this thread for awhile now and think its time to post my first post. The way I see it... Im sure you will agree that If there are two people the come to the same situation in life, Theres a good chance they will take different paths in their lives based on their life, past experience etc. Now thats the key to free will for me, the fact that two people can do what ever they want when faced with the same challenge. To me, Its still a choice no matter how obviouse your decision will be.

Lets say you have a choice between an apple and chocolate bar to eat.
The person thats closest to you in your life knows very well that you hate chocolate and will pick the apple to eat. That doesnt mean that there is no choice for you, and it doesnt mean that you may try the chocolate bar that one time. And even if you know in your own mind that you will never have the chocolate bar, it certainly doesnt mean the choice isnt there your you to choose freely

The way I see it, If this God is real and is smart enough to make this existance we live in, then every single choice we make in our lives is as simple to him to predict as the example I used because he knows everything.

Maybe that knowledge of everything means everything in our pasts, or maybe it means he knows everything in the future because of his vast wisdom and prediction skills.

I dont see 'Gods' prior knowledge of events as a factor in taking away the ligetimacy of your personal free choice that makes up who you are as a person.

With your way of thinking, no one should believe in free choice wether they are christian or not because its like looking back at your past and saying, "well, everything I did is now fact, so theres no way I would have chosen any other path in my life, and if thats true, that means I only have one path into the future".

Thats my thoughts on the subject, and those are probably only my views because I hate the idea of not being in control of how I live my life and what I achieve.

[unriggable]

I guess what they say is right about internet sarcasm...

Once you know me you'll learn that 90% of the things I say are completely untrue.

[satanspaladin]

Dear jf .

I would first like to say thank you for the well wish i got wile in hospital .

I was reading the bible in hospital and for all its brutality in parts and its seemingly endless
contradiction on how we are to live.

I found a passage in the Corinthians that was truly the only thing the bible need to say to me for me to have any faith in the words of god .

"I may be able to speak the languages of man and even of angels ,but if i have no love,
my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell".

I may have all the faith needed to move mountains- but if i have no love i am nothing.

Well i don't have the faith of the bible but i do have love , i hope he find that acceptable.

[Neutrino]

Weak Anthropic Principle: "We see the universe the way it is because we exist"

When I saw this, it triggered a question in my head. This could be involved or ridiculous, so try to hear me out. (and jasmine, it will be short)

Coming from an evolutionary point of view requires that we believe that we have evolved for the purpose of survival. Based on that, what leads us to believe that we can possibly know whether or not we know anything? Restated, evolution leads to survival, not truth. Why do we assume we can know truth.

Clearly, I'm arguing the superiority of my epistemology, but I am curious, and the question we are facing is why I (and others like me) believe. But this is a legitimate question on my part, in that I don't know how an atheist can assume to know that anything exists or doesn't exist.

Can you clarify the question?

We "know" what we "know" through a long and complex series of deductions based on what we see around us. The existence of an infinite number of alternate universes necessary for the WAP to operate is rather difficult to confirm, so they, much like god, will forever fall into the "unconfirmed and unconfirmable" category. However, unconfirmed or not, it still makes a good, non-diestic (or -theistic? I can never remember the difference) explanation as to why the universe is so well suited to life.
Anyway, I'm sure you already know this, so please clarify the question so I can actually make a response to the question, not some general rant.

[Napoleon Ier]

I think we are, while you presented a nice idea of how a contest between god and the devil with the ultimate goal of damnation or salvation for all of humanity might look, but neither you, nor anyone else for that matter, has so far argued against the logical conclusion that if god knows what we are going to do we cannot choose to do anything else. I think the closest anyone came was to say that god doesn't make us do what we do, he only knows what we will do, in reply to which I explained that he doesn't have to make us do anything, simply knowing is enough to make free will a logical impossibility.

God exists beyond timespace. He exists as an entity which doesn't see into te future, but is in it. Free Will is hence reconciled, because whilst he knows, as it were, its only because he has a "super-amazing forward time travel power", to simplify.

I know thats not a great answer MeDeFe, but I thought I may as well present you with the bare outlines of my argument, unrefined though it is.

And sorry if this is included in the 26 prevous pages : I confess I did not read them. mea culpa.

[Neutrino]

I think we are, while you presented a nice idea of how a contest between god and the devil with the ultimate goal of damnation or salvation for all of humanity might look, but neither you, nor anyone else for that matter, has so far argued against the logical conclusion that if god knows what we are going to do we cannot choose to do anything else. I think the closest anyone came was to say that god doesn't make us do what we do, he only knows what we will do, in reply to which I explained that he doesn't have to make us do anything, simply knowing is enough to make free will a logical impossibility.

God exists beyond timespace. He exists as an entity which doesn't see into te future, but is in it. Free Will is hence reconciled, because whilst he knows, as it were, its only because he has a "super-amazing forward time travel power", to simplify.

I know thats not a great answer MeDeFe, but I thought I may as well present you with the bare outlines of my argument, unrefined though it is.

And sorry if this is included in the 26 prevous pages : I confess I did not read them. mea culpa.

Wha...?

1. Your explanation as to why god dosen't, by default, invalidate free will are more than a little confusing. It dosen't matter how far outside the universe he is, by knowing future events with 100% accuracy, free will is destroyed.

2. Time travel, in any form, removes the possibility of free will. If an event is detirmined to 100% accuracy (such as by witnessing it in the future), then, by its very definition, the chance of that event occuring in a different manner or not at all is nil. Therefore free will is nonexistant.

[Napoleon Ier]

Its a difficult problem. Think of it as that God sees everythig relative to him as past tense. Free Will is possible if you accept God does not predict the future, but has been in it.

[satanspaladin]

Well i have been caching up on my reeding of this thread its seems you are now debating
free will .
,So i have a simple question can we have free will when the consequence of not following Gods
law is damnation ,for how can we be free to chose when if we do not do as we are told we are punished ,that to me is cohesion not free will ?

[Napoleon Ier]

Where are you from in Oxford, fellow Oxford dweller?

In answer to your question, I certqinly wouldn't say you are inevitably damned for not believing, far from it. I am reminded of those in the Parable of Sheep and Goats who say "Lord, Lord, When did I know you?", surpised to find themselves saved.

[satanspaladin]

Where are you from in Oxford, fellow Oxford dweller?

In answer to your question, I certqinly wouldn't say you are inevitably damned for not believing, far from it. I am reminded of those in the Parable of Sheep and Goats who say "Lord, Lord, When did I know you?", surpised to find themselves saved.

just outside banbury

[MR. Nate]

i have a simple question can we have free will when the consequence of not following Gods law is damnation ,for how can we be free to chose when if we do not do as we are told we are punished ,that to me is cohesion not free will ?

I think that a system of rewards for being right and punishments for wrong fits smoothly into an environment of free will. I would certainly not argue that the US or UK (or a lot of other nations) are not "Free" although they demand things from their citizenry, such as don't kill one another, don't steal from one another, and pay your taxes. We follow the rules, we are rewarded (protection from criminals, public roads) we disobey the rules we are punished (jail) Similarly, with God, we've got the freedom to do what we want, we just have been made aware that our actions have consequences.

By the way, wonderful to see you back on.

[daddy1gringo]

I think we are, while you presented a nice idea of how a contest between god and the devil with the ultimate goal of damnation or salvation for all of humanity might look, but neither you, nor anyone else for that matter, has so far argued against the logical conclusion that if god knows what we are going to do we cannot choose to do anything else. I think the closest anyone came was to say that god doesn't make us do what we do, he only knows what we will do, in reply to which I explained that he doesn't have to make us do anything, simply knowing is enough to make free will a logical impossibility.

And I spent two posts explaining how he may, by giving us choices, forgo knowing what we are to do, at least on some level, or perhaps completely, and still know everything. As I said that there are things God cannot do because they are contrary to his nature, yet he is still El-Shaddai, likewise the word "omniscient" is not in the Bible, and there is not necessarily a contradiction between what it does say, and Christians believe, about him , and his choosing to pass up knowing something particular in order to step back and give us a choice. Of course God, having created time and the other natural laws and therefore being outside them, is even more able to do so than indicated by any example I can give from our earthly experience, but I believe I showed by such an example that it is conceivable. In my example, though God can see all events, including those that are future to us, the flow of events and the future, may be fluid, based upon our choices.

A master chess player doesn't choose his opponent's moves, but has responses ready for all of the possibilities in order to conclude the game with him winning. God can choose, as I said before, to tweak something else to bring about the end result he desires. He could also, as I suggested but didn't state clearly before, choose NOT to adjust, but to let some things remain eternally changed by our choices. Among the things he may choose not to change, he may act to bring the big picture back to his plan, but I, by my choice, may lose my part in it. That still doesn't change that he knows the future. Once again, this is not a claim to reveal exactly how things are in the realm of the spirit, but if it is conceivable here, how much more there.

Your claim that there is a logical inconsistency here is not valid.

[Napoleon Ier]

Excellent!

Il live up in headington

[MeDeFe]

daddy1gringo, when you say that god can "tweak" something to bring about the end result he desires, exactly what do you mean? That he offers a person a choice and if the choice doesn't fit with his plans he goes back or forward a few days and offers someone else a choice that will even it out?


And if god makes himself not know everything in order to escape the oxymoron of his knowledge making free will impossible, he cannot also know everything. Logic 101, "a" and "not a" are not compatible. If you get both at the same time something is seriously wrong with the premisses.

[Syzygy]

nvm...

[satanspaladin]

Can some one tell me why self termination is a sin .
Jesus gave him self up for crucifixion of mankind's sin is this not the same as some one taking there own life .

If i person takes there owe life with the intention of bettering another persons life is this not the same self sacrifices as Jesus for man .

I was told before in this thread that no act of sin was unredeemable as long as one was truly
repentant ,so how can one repent suicide if one is dead .

[DangerBoy]

Can some one tell me why self termination is a sin .
Jesus gave him self up for crucifixion of mankind's sin is this not the same as some one taking there own life .

If i person takes there owe life with the intention of bettering another persons life is this not the same self sacrifices as Jesus for man .

I was told before in this thread that know act of sin was unredeemable as long as one was truly
repentant ,so how can one repent suicide if one is dead .

Self-termination would be viewed as self-murder. Murder is expressly forbidden in the Bible. God values our lives because we are created in His image and are thus precious to Him. That's why it's a sin.

Jesus willingly gave his life to atone for our sins. He allowed himself to go through the crucifixion with the knowledge that he would be resurrected 3 days later. He constantly talked about this with his disciples during his earthly ministry. He had to be crucified in order to fulfill the prophecies about him, and also to bridge the gulf that exists between God & mankind.

Sacrificing oneself in order to better someone else's life is only acceptable in certain cases. You can serve in the military, police, or firefighter and sacrifice yourself to save someone else's life. But you would never intentionally kill yourself, you just know that there's a possibility of dying during your attempt to protect others. Once again, you're trying to save or protect someone else's life - which is precious in God's sight.

On the last part of your question - you're right. Once you're dead, you're dead (physically). There's no more opportunity to repent. That's why it's so important to make a decision to accept Christ's redemptive sacrifice on the cross for your sins now. Nobody knows when they might die. It could happen at any moment.

Anyone can accept Christ by just being genuine with Him and telling Him that you are sorry for the sins you've committed, that you accept His sacrifice for you, and that you will follow Him. He gives you a new life and it's pretty awesome.

[beezer]

Murder is expressly forbidden in the Bible. God values our lives because we are created in His image and are thus precious to Him. That's why it's a sin.

We'll see how long it will be before people weigh in with the usual "then what about capital punishment" nonsense.

Nice post, DB. See, when you calm down and just explain things from the Bible naturally it's much better.

[got tonkaed]

Murder is expressly forbidden in the Bible. God values our lives because we are created in His image and are thus precious to Him. That's why it's a sin.

We'll see how long it will be before people weigh in with the usual "then what about capital punishment" nonsense.

Nice post, DB. See, when you calm down and just explain things from the Bible naturally it's much better.

first post after you i guess, you dont see a logical inconsistency at all with one provision against taking something that is debatably a life, and actually taking the life of someone who is certainly alive?

[unriggable]

Murder is expressly forbidden in the Bible.

Unless it's people from the middle east.