SFR Yugoslavia [Quenched]

[natty dread]

Well, I'm pretty satisfied with the current gameplay, and no one seems to be complaining.

Maybe it's time to consider quenching this thing

[thenobodies80]

Well, I'm pretty satisfied with the current gameplay, and no one seems to be complaining.

Maybe it's time to consider quenching this thing

Me too.
The only thing I'm currently tracking (and that holds this one from being quenched) is the presence of all those neutrals in the middle part that usually tend to split the map in two parts (north/south), so the player with a little of disadvantage (or second to play in a game) is blocked by those neutrals and can't counterattack the opponent without go throught neutrals armies.
Just tracking how often this happen in the early turns, because it's the only thing I really don't like in this map right now.

Nobodies

[natty dread]

What game types are you speaking of?

[thenobodies80]

1vs1

[AndyDufresne]

In the few 1vs1 games I played, what happened most often is that Vojvodina was often isolated by neutrals, making it tough to break into if someone managed it, and the same with Macedonia.

Otherwise the map is pretty open for 1vs1, though moving around in the center of the map was sometimes troublesome because Doboj-Titovo-Trebinje can effectively be a wall, probably because of the river near Sarajevo.


--Andy

[natty dread]

Well the neutral situation is something that pretty much can't be helped. It's a choice between having lots of neutrals or starting with 12 territories...

Personally I think 1v1 plays reasonably well most of the time... 2v2 is the best game type for the map that I've tried. I haven't tried other team games, multiplayer seems to be ok.

[Condestável]

Is this supposed to happen?


My opponent hasn't played yet, but just started with Vojvodina almost complete and his 4 army territory overthere

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?gam ... 4#map-cell

[natty dread]

Yeah, things happen sometimes.

[Dukasaur]

Well the neutral situation is something that pretty much can't be helped. It's a choice between having lots of neutrals or starting with 12 territories...

Personally I think 1v1 plays reasonably well most of the time... 2v2 is the best game type for the map that I've tried. I haven't tried other team games, multiplayer seems to be ok.

Plays just beautifully with 5 and 7 players.

[thenobodies80]

The above image is the perfect example of what I was trying to say. Not so much for the fact that the player has 3/4 of Vojvodina, but more for the neutral wall in the middle, from Slavonia to titograd (or south kosovo).

And like Andy said, that river doesn't help at all...

Probably in this case I would like to start with a worst number of region than be fucked from the start like the green player in this game.
The neutral on this map are shields for the lucky player, right now in more than 60% of games I checked...

No way to move your coded neutrals in other places?
Maybe this map is beautiful for 5 and 7 players games but certainly they are not the most used game type on this site.

Nobodies

[natty dread]

No way to move your coded neutrals in other places?

Which neutrals would you want moved? The capitals have to be neutral, and the only other coded neutrals are the 3 territories with 2:s.

I don't know if 2-player games can be made any better on this map without radically changing the gameplay. The map works for multiplayer and 2v2 games, and not every map needs to be perfect for 1v1, so I don't really see what I can do, short of allowing 2-player games to start with 12 territories again.

Maybe this map is beautiful for 5 and 7 players games but certainly they are not the most used game type on this site.

But 6 and 8 players are, and the map works for those as well.

[thenobodies80]

the river? I think that with some work on it you can have a better map without destroying the current layout for 6 and 8 players.

It seems to me you're not so open to changes with your maps lately....
As said the "neutral wall" is not a big issue but it happens very often....this is what I don't like. It seems my cyprus map, but in that map there's a reason to have a wall....i can't find on efor this map. Just that.

[natty dread]

the river? I think that with some work on it you can have a better map without destroying the current layout for 6 and 8 players.

What about the river?

It seems to me you're not so open to changes with your maps lately....

If "open to changes" means I can't have any opinions of my own regarding the gameplay design of my maps...

As said the "neutral wall" is not a big issue but it happens very often....this is what I don't like. It seems my cyprus map, but in that map there's a reason to have a wall....i can't find on efor this map. Just that.

Ok, but I still don't see why every map has to be perfect for 1v1 games?

This map wasn't really designed with 1v1 as a priority in the first place, I don't see why I should now jump through hoops to accommodate it for 1v1 games... the map works pretty fine for the game types it was designed for.

[natty dread]

So, what exactly is it that you want me to do with this map? I haven't really heard any actual suggestions...

[thenobodies80]

So, what exactly is it that you want me to do with this map? I haven't really heard any actual suggestions...

...though moving around in the center of the map was sometimes troublesome because Doboj-Titovo-Trebinje can effectively be a wall, probably because of the river near Sarajevo.

Remove it.

Nobodies

[natty dread]

Remove what? The whole river?

Please be more specific.

[thenobodies80]

Although, if it was my map I would remove the whole river part to reach syrmia in the north.

[natty dread]

Ok, Doboj already connects with Titovo. So basically, you want Doboj to connect with Trebinje as well?

Just trying to make sure I understand what you're asking for.

[thenobodies80]

yes.

And as said I would like to have also Doboj that connects with Podrinje (remove the whole river to reach syrmia) but it's a bigger gameplay change, don't know if you like the idea. I'm not forcing you to change the map, just I think that those "random" neutrals doesn't help the player to move around in the central part of the map and that river is just add another obstacle. Don't know, just that i prefer to see players that fight "till the death" in the centre that see them run in the edges protected by central neutrals and impassables, wait and attack when ready using the sea/litoral territories or the northern part of the map.

Nobodies

[natty dread]

yes.

And as said I would like to have also Doboj that connects with Podrinje (remove the whole river to reach syrmia) but it's a bigger gameplay change, don't know if you like the idea. I'm not forcing you to change the map, just I think that those "random" neutrals doesn't help the player to move around in the central part of the map and that river is just add another obstacle. Don't know, just that i prefer to see players that fight "till the death" in the centre that see them run in the edges protected by central neutrals and impassables, wait and attack when ready using the sea/litoral territories or the northern part of the map.

Yes, but that only applies to 2 player games.

One thing that still hasn't been addressed is, why does this map need to be a good 1v1 map? It plays really well for 2v2, and I'd wager it'd be fine for 3v3 as well... And 5-8p multiplayer works just fine as well.

How about I just remove all the neutral 2:s except for South Kosovo? Then 2-player games will start with 12, but it wouldn't affect the other game types.

[Condestável]

Take a look at Red's advantage in this threesome:

10208422

Red only needs to do one move to get + 2 next round and another move in the same place against a neutral 2 to get + 4 in two rounds only. I can only hope he doesn't come across this post.

Now what can I do besides praying he doesn't advance through Titogrado, Niksic and Adriatic Sea to get + 7 in three rounds?

Do you realise he has at hand: Kosovo, half of the capitals and also the ports in a couple of moves?

He will not win this game only if he has no clue or no luck at all.

[natty dread]

Take a look at Red's advantage in this threesome:

Game 10208422

Red only needs to do one move to get + 2 next round and another move in the same place against a neutral 2 to get + 4 in two rounds only. I can only hope he doesn't come across this post.

Now what can I do besides praying he doesn't advance through Titogrado, Niksic and Adriatic Sea to get + 7 in three rounds?

Do you realise he has at hand: Kosovo, half of the capitals and also the ports in a couple of moves?

He will not win this game only if he has no clue or no luck at all.

I don't really see him having that big of an advantage, it's not very likely he can take both of Kosovo territories in the same round. If he takes one of them you have a good chance of breaking it.

[Condestável]

You should do something about the capitals. Maybe reduce their power.

Or maybe you could make the game easier if rules would be completely changed, eg: 1 extra army every 4 territories after 12, That would reduce the neutral barrier headache. So, for example, everyone could start with 15 lands and still an initial 3 army deploy.

[natty dread]

Well, thanks for your opinion. Firstly, let me express how valuable your input is to me and to the whole foundry. I appreciate very much how you take the time to come to this map thread to give your feedback, and the foundry benefits from all of your comments.

Your opinion has been noted and will be taken in consideration when the next update for this map will be made. Again, thanks for your comment.

[thenobodies80]

Natty, I didn't get if you're going to remove that small part of river or not.
Not saying you have....

Just to know since this is the only thing that holds this one. If you don't like the idea and considering that the map plays well for all other type of games, I'll quench it if you don't want to change it.
As said everything else looks good to me.

Nobodies