BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN SHOWN IN SCHOOL

[GustavusAdolphus]

Peace and love is all we need!

Peace and love? What kind of pitiful ninja are you? You, sir, are a disgrace to the name ninja.

[Backglass]

Perhaps all the liberals on this site would join me in banning the showing of ISHTAR in all public schools.

Not a liberal, but I truly believe that Ishtar should never been shown anywhere.

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

All unprovable, hearsay fiction from your 2000 year old novel...unless you count the talking donkey in Shrek.

Again I ask:

• Why is it that we haven't had a mass visit from a god in a few thousand years?
• Why are the only witnesses of mass visits 2000 years old?
• Why did your magical god have seemingly daily interaction with these ancient people, and then just disappear?

Anyone care to answer this time?

Miracles have already been provided and recorded.

Bullshit. Please post your proven godly miracle(s)...if you dare. Please no unverifiable limb regeneration witnessed by a missionary in the jungle.

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone

Yeah, all true. Some people, even if God "showed Himself" would still not serve Him unfortunately.

Bullshit Grande. As soon as a god shows his face in the sky with a voice heard planetwide, I will out-pray the BOTH of you. But you are going to be waiting for a long time.

You say atheists are close minded. Quite the contrary. We are open to all options. You are closed to one. Give us proof...blind lemmings we are not.

They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

[mr. incrediball]

Question: If God was visible for all to see, maybe an immense unbearable light in the sky with His voice audibly heard by all... would you then worship Him?

Uh Jay,

A worldwide flood, a talking donkey, wet fleece/dry fleece for Gideon, the sun standing still for Joshua, 10 plagues against Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, Assyrian army being wiped out by an angel, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego being saved from the fiery furnce, Elijah calling down fire from heaven against the prophets of Baal, Samson killing a lion with his bare hands, fiery cloud leading Israel, bronze snake replica curing all who look upon it, manna & quail, Jericho tumbling down, a giant hand writing on the wall for the entire Chaldean court to see, the virgin birth of Christ, the miracles Jesus performed on earth, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ to heaven in front of witnesses, the miracles performed by the apostles...and that's just the short list!

If someone doesn't want to believe, they're not going to. I doubt a bright light in the sky with an audible voice is going to convince anyone. Miracles have already been provided and recorded. They are dismissed as hogwash and mythology for the weak-minded.

don't forget a guy living inside a wale!

[jay_a2j]

[quote="jay_a2j"]
I've never seen it first hand but I've heard of limbs regenerating. I just refuse to put God in a box and say, "God can't do that."


There is no article folks.

[MeDeFe]

They aren't saying that god can't do it either, they are asking why he doesn't.

[jay_a2j]

Again I ask:

• Why is it that we haven't had a mass visit from a god in a few thousand years?
• Why are the only witnesses of mass visits 2000 years old?
• Why did your magical god have seemingly daily interaction with these ancient people, and then just disappear?

Anyone care to answer this time?

These are strawmen questions.... like asking why did God make the sky blue? Why did He make the world round instead of triangleish?


The last question is assuming that He doesn't speak to people today. Which is not the case.

[heavycola]

Since when has weather been inexplicable? And why did god intervene there and not in darfur, or rwanda, or kosovo, or armenia, or the nazi death camps? He intervened in a poltiical squabble but not in genocide? What sort of person is this?
It's like the amputee question. Jay claims his MS - a supposedly incurable disease - was cured by god. Yet no amputee has ever had their limb regrown by god. Why is this?

First of all we do not know Gods plan laid out for everything that happens. It might just be that God wanted the USA to come into existence. (later to do a lot of good, sending missionaries all over the world- as an example)

MS is an incurable disease. (You can google it) I've never seen it first hand but I've heard of limbs regenerating. I just refuse to put God in a box and say, "God can't do that."

jay i think it is a perfectly reasonable question. God helps an american army win a battle but he leaves millions of africans to die each year. Is this for the greater good? Perhaps if there are less africans it will make the missionaries' job easier? Why is it OK to attribute whatever helps you out to god and yet to answer 'god is mysterious' when mass human suffering is put on the table? I'm not suggesting god can't intervene, merely that if he intervened to cure you and he intervened to help the revoluitionaries, why didn't he intervene when the tsunami hit?

And where have you heard of limbs regenerating? Don't be ridiculous! Please find one example. Salamanders do not count.

[The1exile]

Perhaps the Africans sinned and that's why He smote them.

[jay_a2j]

Since when has weather been inexplicable? And why did god intervene there and not in darfur, or rwanda, or kosovo, or armenia, or the nazi death camps? He intervened in a poltiical squabble but not in genocide? What sort of person is this?
It's like the amputee question. Jay claims his MS - a supposedly incurable disease - was cured by god. Yet no amputee has ever had their limb regrown by god. Why is this?

First of all we do not know Gods plan laid out for everything that happens. It might just be that God wanted the USA to come into existence. (later to do a lot of good, sending missionaries all over the world- as an example)

MS is an incurable disease. (You can google it) I've never seen it first hand but I've heard of limbs regenerating. I just refuse to put God in a box and say, "God can't do that."

jay i think it is a perfectly reasonable question. God helps an american army win a battle but he leaves millions of africans to die each year. Is this for the greater good? Perhaps if there are less africans it will make the missionaries' job easier? Why is it OK to attribute whatever helps you out to god and yet to answer 'god is mysterious' when mass human suffering is put on the table? I'm not suggesting god can't intervene, merely that if he intervened to cure you and he intervened to help the revoluitionaries, why didn't he intervene when the tsunami hit?

And where have you heard of limbs regenerating? Don't be ridiculous! Please find one example. Salamanders do not count.

I saw a T-shirt once that read: Why does God allow starvation, pain and suffering? On the back it said: Why do you?

Which is a good point.... we are our brothers keepers. Why do we not feed the starving? Why do dictators oppress their people?

[Colaalone]

It might just be that God wanted the USA to come into existence.

AYE! Cause he'd be damned if a bunch godless native americans peacefully respected the land he created!! NO! He yearned for smallpox blankets to be given to them.

[Neutrino]

Since when has weather been inexplicable? And why did god intervene there and not in darfur, or rwanda, or kosovo, or armenia, or the nazi death camps? He intervened in a poltiical squabble but not in genocide? What sort of person is this?
It's like the amputee question. Jay claims his MS - a supposedly incurable disease - was cured by god. Yet no amputee has ever had their limb regrown by god. Why is this?

First of all we do not know Gods plan laid out for everything that happens. It might just be that God wanted the USA to come into existence. (later to do a lot of good, sending missionaries all over the world- as an example)

MS is an incurable disease. (You can google it) I've never seen it first hand but I've heard of limbs regenerating. I just refuse to put God in a box and say, "God can't do that."

jay i think it is a perfectly reasonable question. God helps an american army win a battle but he leaves millions of africans to die each year. Is this for the greater good? Perhaps if there are less africans it will make the missionaries' job easier? Why is it OK to attribute whatever helps you out to god and yet to answer 'god is mysterious' when mass human suffering is put on the table? I'm not suggesting god can't intervene, merely that if he intervened to cure you and he intervened to help the revoluitionaries, why didn't he intervene when the tsunami hit?

And where have you heard of limbs regenerating? Don't be ridiculous! Please find one example. Salamanders do not count.

I saw a T-shirt once that read: Why does God allow starvation, pain and suffering? On the back it said: Why do you?

Which is a good point.... we are our brothers keepers. Why do we not feed the starving? Why do dictators oppress their people?

Why dosent god do it? He seemed to be a household figure 2000 years ago, then he suddenly up and left us to die?

My point is that, what is the point of worshiping a god who really dosent care about you, or in fact your entire species.

Why would god create a species, dump them on a planet, do everything for them for a while, then just dissapears overnight.
Why would he do this?
Is god some kind of scientist trying to see how long it will take us to kill ourselves? Is he some kind of serial kiler, who takes wierd pleasure in watching us die from various horrible things that he himself invented?

Why didnt he just create us perfect, so we could live with him in heaven? Why bother going through all this suffering and woe?

[jay_a2j]

It might just be that God wanted the USA to come into existence.

AYE! Cause he'd be damned if a bunch godless native americans peacefully respected the land he created!! NO! He yearned for smallpox blankets to be given to them.

You would think someone from the Bible belt would have a little more respect for the Good Lord.

[Colaalone]

It might just be that God wanted the USA to come into existence.

AYE! Cause he'd be damned if a bunch godless native americans peacefully respected the land he created!! NO! He yearned for smallpox blankets to be given to them.

You would think someone from the Bible belt would have a little more respect for the Good Lord.

I wasn't born here; I take pride in that

[Guiscard]

I saw a T-shirt once that read: Why does God allow starvation, pain and suffering? On the back it said: Why do you?

Which is a good point.... we are our brothers keepers. Why do we not feed the starving? Why do dictators oppress their people?

That's easy...

Eve? Meet snake!

BING! Original Sin!

Thought you'd have known that, Jay!

As far as I knew, God was excluded from the whole sin thing because, well, because he's God!

[Backglass]

Again I ask:

• Why is it that we haven't had a mass visit from a god in a few thousand years?
• Why are the only witnesses of mass visits 2000 years old?
• Why did your magical god have seemingly daily interaction with these ancient people, and then just disappear?

Anyone care to answer this time?

These are strawmen questions.... like asking why did God make the sky blue? Why did He make the world round instead of triangleish?

Thanks for so elegantly avoiding all the questions, I expected as much. They are valid questions, all.

I have to wonder why YOU haven't asked yourself these same questions as well. Do you not want to face the logical answer?

The last question is assuming that he doesn't speak to people today. Which is not the case.

Bullshit. Unless you consider dreams, your immune system responding to MS and grilled cheese images "speaking". I would love to hear the tape of your gods latest speech. Make a podcast for us would ya?

MS is an incurable disease. (You can google it)

Rabies is an incurable disease. (You can google it). Yet a girl recently lived through it and survived...the first known to man. Medical science is always making new discoveries.

I've never seen it first hand but I've heard of limbs regenerating.

AGHH. Not the missionaries in the jungle again. . Jay, your a rube. You believe anything told to you IF they are straight faced & devoutly christian. Lets go back a few months to yet another unanswered question. WHY wasn't this man who's limb magically regenerated taken to a hospital for independent verification? It would have been WORLDWIDE news. It would have been TREMENDOUS confirmation of your god & religion to the world. YET, they didn't and I ask you: Why Not?

Let me guess....another "Straw Man" question you wont answer.

[luns101]

luns, this is getting a bit silly? I don't like petty tit-for-tat arguing which is why I didn't respond to your "provide a direct quote of me saying that" style questions. You didn't say Christianity has a monopoly on compassion, I did, I know that and so do you, so how could I quote you on it? What you did say and have said again above (wording may have been slightly different before) is:

"In reality it is Christians who are going out and trying to assist those who are dying of AIDS."

This infers that Christians are the only people assisting those with AIDS and when read in context further infers that the people who are bemoaning Christians are not.

Ok Betros, I don't like the tit-for-tat thing either, but I do have to insist on making this point because I believe it's important. I was originally addressing the point that Christians aren't running around being homophobic, but that we do sincerely care about those inflicted with AIDS. We demonstrate that by starting up hospices. I was not even inferring that Christians have a monopoly on compassion. What I'm trying to get through to people here is that the stereotype presented in movies of intolerant Christians is exaggerated and in fact in many cases - false.

I'm sorry you think I'm being picky on this point but it's important to me because regardless of the thread subject, when Christians here at CC make points they are accused of being "bigoted" or "intolerant". That is wrong, and I'm tired of it. So I'm trying to present that there is another side to the argument...one of compassion which is not addressed. I've made this point in other threads, and I've also been told "don't think that Christians have a monopoly on compassion". Which I've never said (or inferred)!

I didn't insinuate that you thought being homosexual lead to HIV.

Sorry man, but you did...

You say it like you believe that being homosexual can actually bring the virus into being. Stop being so obtuse.

Just because we are talking about a film shown in the US doesn't mean you can ignore the rest of the world to use biased statistics in support of your position, hence I brought in the WHO.

Well, I guess I should have clarified that I was talking about the American culture and the attempt to normalize homosexual behavior while villifying those who disagree with it at the same time. Since other cultures/nations have different views on homosexuality, I can't really say what their motivations are for supporting or opposing it. This is why I was quoting the CDC. The WHO provides good insight on AIDS from a global perspective. I went and looked at it and thank you for bringing that into the debate. I understand your point better now.

What actually made me respond to you in the first place was the line about hopelessness in the eyes of those who contracted it through homosexual behavior. This time an inference that the hopelessness was due to the homosexual behavior. What about the bloke in the next bed who was born haemophiliac and got given infected blood... is he not feeling hopeless because he is not gay? Of course not. Its deliberately not being insightful of the full situation to make your argument sound more compelling, which is all I was drawing attention to.

I'm not inferring it, I'm actually stating it outright. I provided sources which back up my beliefs. People who contract the virus through other ways definitely feel just as hopeless and we need to care for them too, as the final result is still death. I'm not ignoring these other people who contract it in other ways. I'm saying that homosexual behavior puts people at higher risk than other groups. This fact is being pushed aside because people are afraid of being labeled as "intolerant"...and nobody likes being called that.

[luns101]

do realise those stories have been retold so many times they were probably not true anyway? Jesus probably had a coma. The 10 plagues is accounted for some volcano I think, etc.

Yes, but its all 2000+ years old.

all these happened on hearsay, were badly recorded, and were jazzed up when the bible was written to make christianity sound more interesting. none happened less than 2000 years ago

All unprovable, hearsay fiction from your 2000 year old novel...unless you count the talking donkey in Shrek.

Bullshit. Please post your proven godly miracle(s)...if you dare. Please no unverifiable limb regeneration witnessed by a missionary in the jungle.

So you all make my point. You're all using different ways to dismiss them, but dismiss them you do. If those miracles that were recorded in the Bible are not good enough, a great giant light in the sky with an audible voice is not going to convince anyone. When Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, the religious leaders of the day got so angry they plotted to kill him!

I don't think that most people would convert no matter how grandiose the miracle. Well, almost nobody...

If he did merge I'd believe in him

As soon as a god shows his face in the sky with a voice heard planetwide, I will out-pray the BOTH of you.

but then again in the next breath...

I expect him never to show up, because I don't think he is even there.

But you are going to be waiting for a long time.

- which leads me to believe that a miracle would do nothing but maybe cause a little fear and bewilderment for a short time and then be explained away...just like the miracles already recorded.

[luns101]

Again I ask:

• Why is it that we haven't had a mass visit from a god in a few thousand years?
• Why are the only witnesses of mass visits 2000 years old?
• Why did your magical god have seemingly daily interaction with these ancient people, and then just disappear?

Anyone care to answer this time?;)

I doubt you'll accept my answers but only respond with "I cry Bullshit", but you are one of the funniest people here on CC, and I enjoy your wit...so I'll at least try:

Why is it that we haven't had a mass visit from a god in a few thousand years?

Because He's not required to respond to mankind on mankind's own terms. In fact, He's not required to respond to any of mankind's demands anymore than any created thing can command the thing that created it to obey it. The 2nd person of the Godhead, Jesus Christ, did come down and visit for 33 1/2 years. It was recorded for all to read about. You dismiss that recording as baloney, which is your right. Other people accept it.

Why are the only witnesses of mass visits 2000 years old?

Simply put...because that's when it occurred. So it stands to reason that those who witnessed and recorded it would have lived in the period of history that is 2000 years ago.

Why did your magical god have seemingly daily interaction with these ancient people, and then just disappear?

Because He completed the mission of paying for mankind's sins through the substitutionary death on the cross. He didn't just disappear. For those who accepted Him, he sent the 3rd person of the Godhead - the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them. These people who received Christ (and those who do so today) were given the power to show love and spread God's message as representatives of Him. He promises to return, which I'm sure you'll ridicule.

So now I wait for the "you can't prove it", "then why did He do things this way", or "you're delusional" comments. It's a matter of faith in the end. The thing I object to is that is categorized as an unreasonable faith.

Apparently Backglass, some people still see Him:

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=598001

[salvadevinemasse]

Okay I'm confused.. how did this become another Jay god speech? For one the subject is about broke back mountain and what a teacher did, not about god and not about anything else so lets please get back on topic here.. Do I think it should have happened.. Its a movie damn it, kids see more then this movie everyday.. It doesnt even show what happens!!!!!
So Do I Think It Was Okay?...why not? They showed me the simpsons when I took french in the 9th grade..why cant a teacher play a movie if the schools allow you to watch the simpsons? Honestly why does anyone care about this?
Salva-

[salvadevinemasse]

Again I ask:

• Why is it that we haven't had a mass visit from a god in a few thousand years?
• Why are the only witnesses of mass visits 2000 years old?
• Why did your magical god have seemingly daily interaction with these ancient people, and then just disappear?

Anyone care to answer this time?

These are strawmen questions.... like asking why did God make the sky blue? Why did He make the world round instead of triangleish?

Thanks for so elegantly avoiding all the questions, I expected as much. They are valid questions, all.

I have to wonder why YOU haven't asked yourself these same questions as well. Do you not want to face the logical answer?

The last question is assuming that he doesn't speak to people today. Which is not the case.

Bullshit. Unless you consider dreams, your immune system responding to MS and grilled cheese images "speaking". I would love to hear the tape of your gods latest speech. Make a podcast for us would ya?

MS is an incurable disease. (You can google it)

Rabies is an incurable disease. (You can google it). Yet a girl recently lived through it and survived...the first known to man. Medical science is always making new discoveries.

I've never seen it first hand but I've heard of limbs regenerating.

AGHH. Not the missionaries in the jungle again. . Jay, your a rube. You believe anything told to you IF they are straight faced & devoutly christian. Lets go back a few months to yet another unanswered question. WHY wasn't this man who's limb magically regenerated taken to a hospital for independent verification? It would have been WORLDWIDE news. It would have been TREMENDOUS confirmation of your god & religion to the world. YET, they didn't and I ask you: Why Not?

Let me guess....another "Straw Man" question you wont answer.

Back Glass-
Have I ever told you how much I adore your posts! Its this paragraph that
I love the most "Bullshit. Unless you consider dreams, your immune system responding to MS and grilled cheese images "speaking". I would love to hear the tape of your gods latest speech. Make a podcast for us would ya?" Thats sooooo great!
Love Salva

[I GOT SERVED]

Just an observation on this topic:

Both sides of this argument have come off as a tid-bit ignorant/close minded. The Jesus Freaks (if I may call you that) have been offering some "loose" (for lack of a better word) ideas/explanations, some without backing. As for the other side of the story, the atheists have shot down each point with quick "No, you're wrong" statement.


This being said, I consider myself agnostic. Because of this, I more often then not accept the statement of God not being there during harsh times, as he is mysterious. But the Jesus Freaks tend to elaborate on this, saying that God has done this, that and the other thing too, when it actually is easier to explain it. Some of the Jesus Freaks' claims are legit. But from my personal experience, they go WAY over the top, claiming ludicrous statements.

And I would like to see an article about this limb-regeneration, if possible.

[jay_a2j]

I've never seen it first hand but I've heard of limbs regenerating. I just refuse to put God in a box and say, "God can't do that."

There is no article folks.

[Jenos Ridan]

Peace and love is all we need!

Peace and love? What kind of pitiful ninja are you? You, sir, are a disgrace to the name ninja.

EDIT

Hence why I would rather be a pirate. They are honest about what they are, just hard working sailors trying to earn a living. What do ninja do all day, sit in the dojo all day listening to some old guy who hasn't used is 'skills' in mortal combat in decades? Whereas a pirate has to contend with the raging seas when not in battle.

[Backglass]

I doubt you'll accept my answers but only respond with "I cry Bullshit", but you are one of the funniest people here on CC, and I enjoy your wit...so I'll at least try

I am humbled by your kind words Mi Amigo. I too appreciate your intellect and ability to not take these jousting matches too serious. I predict that one day, we WILL drink a pint together. KUMBA YAAAAAAAA!

If those miracles that were recorded in the Bible are not good enough, a great giant light in the sky with an audible voice is not going to convince anyone.

No. A great giant light in the sky of the modern world with a worldwide audible voice would convince EVERYONE. Including me.

When Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, the religious leaders of the day got so angry they plotted to kill him!

Yes! And when Big Pussy betrayed the family, Tony Soprano got so angry he plotted to kill him! I love that show!

But seriously. What makes you think that extremely superstitious people 2000 years ago would act differently than people today? Play along with me: YOU kill a man by your own hand today. You bury him yourself in your backyard. And then, several days later, you see him walking around your neighborhood chatting up the ladies and his grave empty.

Would you:

• A - FREAK OUT and realize that something incredibly supernatural had just happened.
• B - Get very angry and plot to KILL him ...again.

Thats why I think it's fiction. If you saw that happen today, you would be in AWE...not pissed off, and 2000 years ago they believed in all forms of magic. They wouldn't have been angry, they would have pissed their pants.

Because He's not required to respond to mankind on mankind's own terms. In fact, He's not required to respond to any of mankind's demands anymore than any created thing can command the thing that created it to obey it.

I have heard this answer before from jay and my reaction is "copout". The usual answer always includes some time-space continuum quandary like "2000 years to us is a MINUTE to HIM!!!!". Thank you for not sinking that low.

My point is that this huge amount of activity followed by 2000 years of silence (your links of jesus tortillas notwithstanding) brings into question the entire written history. Greek Mythology had volumes of stories written about their many gods and how they interacted with humans. Then one day they just stopped. Did Zeus, Apollo and Athena just decide not to bow to mans wishes and stop responding because they were gods and not required to answer on our terms? Or because they were myths?

Simply put...because that's when it occurred. So it stands to reason that those who witnessed and recorded it would have lived in the period of history that is 2000 years ago.

I hear you. There are cave drawings of men with spears interacting with men wearing what appear to our eyes as space helmets. We have seen these recordings. Does this make space visitors real? Or was it just a story of a dream, some caveman fiction. (I know you don't believe in cavemen either, so just think Geico. )

For those who accepted Him, he sent the 3rd person of the Godhead - the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them.

I see. It's a feeling...like Flashdance.

(Disclaimer: Only funny to those over 30 ).

These people who received Christ (and those who do so today) were given the power to show love and spread God's message as representatives of Him. He promises to return, which I'm sure you'll ridicule.

First off: One does not need religion to show love. Now, I know you believe this terminator-like promise of a return, but in my mind it all comes from the book, written by men (who ALWAYS have an agenda), and that is where the house of cards falls. In your religion nothing is concrete. It's all shady, shaky and requires great leaps of faith.

Back Glass-Have I ever told you how much I adore your posts! Love Salva

"I'm a married spud...I'm a married spud".

(Disclaimer: Only funny to those with kids. )

So now I wait for the "you can't prove it", "then why did He do things this way", or "you're delusional" comments. It's a matter of faith in the end. The thing I object to is that is categorized as an unreasonable faith.

Well my delusional friend (couldnt resist!)...I am a realist and not about to just jump off the cliff on faith. After all, thats how Jay got addicted to nicotine.

"Just TRY it! You'll see! It's great! COME JOIN USSSSSSS!"

And I would like to see an article about this limb-regeneration, if possible.

I and the entire worldwide medical community would as well.

There is no article folks.

And there you have it. "Ya just gotta believe!"

[luns101]

I am humbled by your kind words Mi Amigo. I too appreciate your intellect and ability to not take these jousting matches too serious. I predict that one day, we WILL drink a pint together. KUMBA YAAAAAAAA!

Just remember your promise to not expose me to San Miguel. And I'm still waiting to see a picture of your pinball collection!! Are you bringing Jay with you?

My point is that this huge amount of activity followed by 2000 years of silence (your links of jesus tortillas notwithstanding) brings into question the entire written history. Greek Mythology had volumes of stories written about their many gods and how they interacted with humans. Then one day they just stopped. Did Zeus, Apollo and Athena just decide not to bow to mans wishes and stop responding because they were gods and not required to answer on our terms? Or because they were myths?

My counterpoint to that would be the millions of changed lives by those who've put their faith in Jesus Christ. A changed life is just as much a miracle (if not more so) than superceding the laws of science. God didn't stop interacting with human beings after the ascension of Christ. The church continued on [bumblin' & stumblin'], but it continues on anyway. The fact that it still continues to minister love and compassion despite the many flaws of its members is a tribute to the fact that God is miraculously working through (and sometimes despite it) to reach mankind.

I hear you. There are cave drawings of men with spears interacting with men wearing what appear to our eyes as space helmets. We have seen these recordings. Does this make space visitors real? Or was it just a story of a dream, some caveman fiction. (I know you don't believe in cavemen either, so just think Geico.)

Von Daniken's in da House!!

First off: One does not need religion to show love. Now, I know you believe this terminator-like promise of a return, but in my mind it all comes from the book, written by men (who ALWAYS have an agenda), and that is where the house of cards falls. In your religion nothing is concrete. It's all shady, shaky and requires great leaps of faith.

I don't know why atheists/skeptics keep making this charge. When we talk about showing compassion it's because we're commanded to. As far as myself, I bring it up because skeptics here usually charge Christ followers such as myself as being "uncompassionate" but totally disregard the wide array of ministries that we provide to our fellow man. I don't bring it up in order to say, "Hey y'all, check us out on the morality scoreboard"!

As far as Christianity not having anything concrete...I really don't know how you can make that statement. Sin, Judgement, the Resurrection - you may not believe these things personally, but that doesn't in and of itself make it not concrete. Every belief system requires faith at some point, some with bigger leaps that others.

In my view, it takes a bigger leap to look at the complexity of the universe and think it just all magically came together. What you may mock as "the big sky daddy" is more believable than some magic potion of chemicals getting together and whisking us all together over time.

After all, thats how Jay got addicted to nicotine.

So getting back on topic. If I remember correctly you tried to tell Jay that he should stop smoking in another thread, is that correct? You did this because you were extending some good advice in order to warn him of the health consequences of his behavior. When Christians try to do that by warning homosexuals of the increased risk of contracting the HIV-1 virus due to their behavior, we get labeled as homophobes. It's due to this new definition of tolerance (which I reject). I don't know, perhaps you're with me on this one. Do you think the homophobe label is being used too liberally?