BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN SHOWN IN SCHOOL

[Jenos Ridan]

It is being used to much. I'm certain many, on both sides, might well agree whole-heartedly.

[luns101]

But seriously. What makes you think that extremely superstitious people 2000 years ago would act differently than people today? Play along with me: YOU kill a man by your own hand today. You bury him yourself in your backyard. And then, several days later, you see him walking around your neighborhood chatting up the ladies and his grave empty.

Would you:

• A - FREAK OUT and realize that something incredibly supernatural had just happened.
• B - Get very angry and plot to KILL him ...again.

Thats why I think it's fiction. If you saw that happen today, you would be in AWE...not pissed off, and 2000 years ago they believed in all forms of magic. They wouldn't have been angry, they would have pissed their pants.

I don't know if I missed this the first time or if you altered your post later, so I came back to it.

Asking me what I would do is moot. What is actually recorded in scripture is what matters. It was recorded in John 11. We're not talking about me...we're talking about a text that's a recorded part of history (one which you reject, but it's still out there nonetheless). The religious priests of that day were so ticked off that they might lose their power, they could've cared less about the actual miracle itself.

This is also why I don't think another miracle is going to change anyone's mind. But I will respect your claim that you would in fact convert if you witnessed a miracle for yourself since it's recorded in the Bible that some people did in fact believe once they witnessed a supernatural event.

I wonder if you'd count the Cubs winning the World Series as something superceding the laws of the universe and thus requiring a conversion!

[MeDeFe]

So getting back on topic. If I remember correctly you tried to tell Jay that he should stop smoking in another thread, is that correct? You did this because you were extending some good advice in order to warn him of the health consequences of his behavior. When Christians try to do that by warning homosexuals of the increased risk of contracting the HIV-1 virus due to their behavior, we get labeled as homophobes. It's due to this new definition of tolerance (which I reject). I don't know, perhaps you're with me on this one. Do you think the homophobe label is being used too liberally?

No, you (and by this I'm referring to your "we", which might in fact be a huge conglomerate of groups of people with some vastly different ideas, many of which you might even strongly disagree with) are labeled as homophobes because you say that homosexuality is morally wrong or unnatural, or something like that. Homosexuality is not something limited to humans, if you like me to I'll look for sources to back up my claim. Right now I'm a little busy though. But how can it be unnatural if it's all over nature?

Also, and I know I've tried to make this point before, so far without success: homosexuality itself is not a health risk. Ensuing sexual practices like anal sex without using a condom are, though.

[Skittles!]

Hm. How un-original. Another Christian debate.

Yawn. I'm sure there are better things to do then argue about a different lifestyle to yours.

[heavycola]

If those miracles that were recorded in the Bible are not good enough, a great giant light in the sky with an audible voice is not going to convince anyone. When Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, the religious leaders of the day got so angry they plotted to kill him!

I don't think that most people would convert no matter how grandiose the miracle. Well, almost nobody...

Luns I just don't accept this. The miracles in the bible were written years after they 'happened' by people who lived 2,000 years ago. They are not good enough as proof in the same way the Odyssey is not proof for the existence of cylops.

Re: the light in the sky + audible voice - How do I prove to you that I exist? I believe you take my regular, whiny posts as enough evidence, but it's not proof.
If God proves his existence, then he has proved it. There would be no room for doubt. If an omnipotent deity revealed himself I do not imagine there would be anyone left going, 'nah, i don't believe in that'.

Accounts in a 2,000 year old, inaccuracy-riddled books are not enough for skeptics. I am sure god could do better. Jay keeps tellign us how and where god intervenes - so he IS interventionist! Why stop at rvealing himself to everyone? What is the point?
The easiest answer: because he does not exist.

[Bertros Bertros]

I'm too short of time to spend it doing a whole quote/unquote message here so you'll have to do without them....

luns, I agree with you the homophobe label is spread around too liberally but in this case your too readily casting it on yourself and your fellow Christians (Jay excepted as he has openly admitted he is homophobic and proud of it).

As I pointed out the movie in question doesn't represent Christians as being homophobic or intolerant. In fact it really doesn't focus on other peoples attitudes towards gay cowboys much at all! I'll ask more directly this time; can you show me any examples of a Hollywood movie which portrays Christians, and here I mean specifically Christians not just society or homphobes, as intolerant or bigotted? Are there any Hollywood movies which actively push an anti-christian agenda?

As an aside I do hope that The Golden Compass will be true to Phillip Pullman's intent but I seriously doubt it.

As for the HIV thing I understand where your coming from I really do. I just don't agree with using it as an argument against homosexuality. As others have pointed out the increased risk you talk of is to do with anal sex, not homosexuality per se, and anal sex can be protected to reduce the risk. I accept there are well documented socio-sexual trends of promiscuity amongst gay men which place them at increased risk but again this isn't strictly homosexuality per se, but men in general.

Oh and don't part quote me. To pick and quote one sentence so that you can show me clearly contradicting myself whilst the same sentence taken in context does nothing of the sort is a cheap trick.

[jay_a2j]

(Jay excepted as he has openly admitted he is homophobic and proud of it).

That was sarcasm in the attempt to appease the one's tossing out the "homophobe" accusations. I personally don't like the definition of homophobe. Breaking the word down it would mean "fear of homosexuals" which is hardly the case for most people. Basically the word has come to mean "anyone that is intolerant of homosexuality"...and that's where I fit in. I will not tolerate it but I also will not condemn those who practice it.

[Bertros Bertros]

(Jay excepted as he has openly admitted he is homophobic and proud of it).

That was sarcasm in the attempt to appease the one's tossing out the "homophobe" accusations. I personally don't like the definition of homophobe. Breaking the word down it would mean "fear of homosexuals" which is hardly the case for most people. Basically the word has come to mean "anyone that is intolerant of homosexuality"...and that's where I fit in. I will not tolerate it but I also will not condemn those who practice it.

That was bait...

Technically if your looking at the translation from Greek it would be "fear of the same" - 'homos' = 'same' and 'fobos' = 'fear'. However the standard definition is...

–noun
a person who fears or hates homosexuals and homosexuality.

Fit the bill?

[jay_a2j]

–noun
a person who fears or hates homosexuals and homosexuality.

Fit the bill?

I hate homosexuality but not homosexuals. God hates homosexuality (sin) but not homosexuals.


I'm in good company!

[MeDeFe]

Except that Backglass et. alii would wonder what company you're talking about, an imaginary friend or something?

Look, "being on the side of god" is not a valid argument for or against anything since there is no positive proof of gods existence. Also, we know you're a christian, you don't have to tell us ALL the time. Just debate like you used to a year ago, ok?

[unriggable]

God hates homosexuality (sin) but not homosexuals.

How do you know? How can you be sure that he thinks this way?

You have never spoken to him. You have never spoken to people who have 'spoken' to him. You have never met anybody who has 'known' him. You can't be sure that what you are told is the truth. Why would God target homosexuality? Why would he even let it happen under his watch? He's God. Is he limited by his power? Or is it that he just doesn't give a shit about homosexuals? Or is it that you think that he hates homosexuals, and you act on it accordingly, when in reality he doesn't do anything because he doesn't care? Why doesn't he stop you from preaching this hate? Is it because he doesn't care? Is it because that he doesn't actually exist? Is is because somehow, because you have thought that a man who lived and died 2000 years ago died for you, you are now allowed to do whatever you wish, as long as it is in the name of God, saying that whatever you choose to do, whether it be for a cause or for personal gain, God wants you to do it? Or are you just delusional and everything that you were raised to believe is not actually there?

[beezer]

Oh and don't part quote me. To pick and quote one sentence so that you can show me clearly contradicting myself whilst the same sentence taken in context does nothing of the sort is a cheap trick.

You charged him with saying something that he DID NOT say. He called you on it. You then said you didn't say it in the first place. He quoted you on it and proved that you DID say it. Now you're trying to deflect attention away from the fact that you said it , while making some type of "well, you're just being a Mr. Picky Pants" defense. You said it. Here was the entire paragraph with the bolded part that luns quoted.

You say it like you believe that being homosexual can actually bring the virus into being. Stop being so obtuse. You are clearly intelligent enough to know that any sex with any infected person can lead to the contraction of Aids, and equally that sharing needles or blood transfusions for haemophiliacs or those in bad accidents all can and have lead to the contraction of Aids.

If everybody here is honest, we all make mistakes during these debates. You're just being too stubborn to admit that you made one.

[mr. incrediball]

But seriously. What makes you think that extremely superstitious people 2000 years ago would act differently than people today? Play along with me: YOU kill a man by your own hand today. You bury him yourself in your backyard. And then, several days later, you see him walking around your neighborhood chatting up the ladies and his grave empty.

Would you:

• A - FREAK OUT and realize that something incredibly supernatural had just happened.
• B - Get very angry and plot to KILL him ...again.

Thats why I think it's fiction. If you saw that happen today, you would be in AWE...not pissed off, and 2000 years ago they believed in all forms of magic. They wouldn't have been angry, they would have pissed their pants.

I don't know if I missed this the first time or if you altered your post later, so I came back to it.

Asking me what I would do is moot. What is actually recorded in scripture is what matters. It was recorded in John 11. We're not talking about me...we're talking about a text that's a recorded part of history (one which you reject, but it's still out there nonetheless). The religious priests of that day were so ticked off that they might lose their power, they could've cared less about the actual miracle itself.

This is also why I don't think another miracle is going to change anyone's mind. But I will respect your claim that you would in fact convert if you witnessed a miracle for yourself since it's recorded in the Bible that some people did in fact believe once they witnessed a supernatural event.

I wonder if you'd count the Cubs winning the World Series as something superceding the laws of the universe and thus requiring a conversion!

I think genesis was before the bible was written... revelations is based on one of the diciple's drug trips, and a lot of the new testament just repeats what is said in the old testament except all the lovable heros are replaced by some guy and his twelve bitches

it isn't all truth, mate.

[jay_a2j]

God hates homosexuality (sin) but not homosexuals.

How do you know? How can you be sure that he thinks this way?

You have never spoken to him. You have never spoken to people who have 'spoken' to him. You have never met anybody who has 'known' him. You can't be sure that what you are told is the truth. Why would God target homosexuality? Why would he even let it happen under his watch? He's God. Is he limited by his power? Or is it that he just doesn't give a shit about homosexuals? Or is it that you think that he hates homosexuals, and you act on it accordingly, when in reality he doesn't do anything because he doesn't care? Why doesn't he stop you from preaching this hate? Is it because he doesn't care? Is it because that he doesn't actually exist? Is is because somehow, because you have thought that a man who lived and died 2000 years ago died for you, you are now allowed to do whatever you wish, as long as it is in the name of God, saying that whatever you choose to do, whether it be for a cause or for personal gain, God wants you to do it? Or are you just delusional and everything that you were raised to believe is not actually there?

I have spoken to Him...its called prayer.


I know Him (as do many others)

God is not "targeting" homosexuality...He hates sin.... all sin.

God has given us free will (so its not about what He lets happen under His watch)

You need to pay more attention to my posts. God (and I) do not hate homosexuals. God hates sin. Homosexuality is a sin. But He died for all sin (including the sin of homosexuality). Thus extending His love to ALL men (including homosexuals).


I don't preach hate. I am telling you what the Word of God says. You are within your full rights as a human being to reject it.

[Bertros Bertros]

Oh and don't part quote me. To pick and quote one sentence so that you can show me clearly contradicting myself whilst the same sentence taken in context does nothing of the sort is a cheap trick.

You charged him with saying something that he DID NOT say. He called you on it. You then said you didn't say it in the first place. He quoted you on it and proved that you DID say it. Now you're trying to deflect attention away from the fact that you said it , while making some type of "well, you're just being a Mr. Picky Pants" defense. You said it. Here was the entire paragraph with the bolded part that luns quoted.

You say it like you believe that being homosexual can actually bring the virus into being. Stop being so obtuse. You are clearly intelligent enough to know that any sex with any infected person can lead to the contraction of Aids, and equally that sharing needles or blood transfusions for haemophiliacs or those in bad accidents all can and have lead to the contraction of Aids.

If everybody here is honest, we all make mistakes during these debates. You're just being too stubborn to admit that you made one.

Who threw you a bun anyway? The quote I felt was out of context was actually

I didn't insinuate that you thought being homosexual lead to HIV. I said you were being obtuse (see above) in that you were presenting HIV as a reason to abhor homosexuality when it is in reality a virus which affects us all.

The fact you are conveniently sidestepping is I never said that luns thought being homosexual leads to HIV, I said he was pretending he did. That is what obtuse means in this context...

Now clear off and find somebody else to bother if you please.

[unriggable]

I have spoken to Him...its called prayer.

Fair enough...has he spoken back to you?

I know Him (as do many others)

God is not "targeting" homosexuality...He hates sin.... all sin.

1. Bullshit 2. The sins are Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride. None of those include homosexuality.

God has given us free will (so its not about what He lets happen under His watch)

You need to pay more attention to my posts. God (and I) do not hate homosexuals. God hates sin. Homosexuality is a sin. But He died for all sin (including the sin of homosexuality). Thus extending His love to ALL men (including homosexuals).

If God gave us free will, then why does he get so involved with wrongdoings in the old testament but does nothing more than watch in today's world?

Still, when does it say homosexuality is a sin?

I don't preach hate. I am telling you what the Word of God says. You are within your full rights as a human being to reject it.

How do you know that it is the word of God? How do you know it isn't the writings of a peyote-tripping desert wandering outcast?

[hecter]

God is not "targeting" homosexuality...He hates sin.... all sin.

1. Bullshit 2. The sins are Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride. None of those include homosexuality.

Before I continue, I would like to say that I do not agree with the statements I am presenting.

Because of the fact that some people believe that homosexuality is a choice (jay), it can easily be classified as lust. Because homosexuals do not love each other, as it is inconceivable that two peoples of the same gender could do such a thing, it is lust.

[jay_a2j]

The sins are Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride. None of those include homosexuality.



Those are the "seven deadly sins" which I have never seen in scripture. Those are not the only sins.


If God gave us free will, then why does he get so involved with wrongdoings in the old testament but does nothing more than watch in today's world?


A lot of "wrongdoing" went on in the OT and God did not intervene. The OT is actually full of these instances. And there , no doubt, has been God intervention in modern times (but quickly brushed aside by a skeptical world) The 4 day war between Israel and Egypt is a great example.


Still, when does it say homosexuality is a sin?


Among other places 1Cor. 6:9


How do you know that it is the word of God? How do you know it isn't the writings of a peyote-tripping desert wandering outcast?


That's where faith comes in. The Bible proves itself to be God's Word. That outcast was something else! He has made 1000's of predictions that have been fulfilled!

[Skittles!]

Jay, Jay, Jay.

You said God hates. From what I know, God does not hate, He loves. Why else would He send His only Son to die for us? Unless you are talking about the people that wrote the books of the Old Testament believing that God hates, then fine.
You also said God hates sin. Again, from what I know, we sin. Does that mean God hates you? Because you sin? Or is it because you are one less sin than a homosexual person, He loves you?

[luns101]

Are there any Hollywood movies which actively push an anti-christian agenda?

The following quotes are from imdb.com....not me:

Footloose: When teenager Ren (Kevin Bacon) and his family move from big-city Chicago to a small town in the West, he's in for a real case of culture shock. Though he tries hard to fit in, the streetwise Ren can't quite believe he's living in a place where rock music and dancing are illegal. There is one small pleasure, however: Ariel (Lori Singer), a troubled but lovely blonde with a jealous boyfriend. and a Bible-thumping minister, who is responsible for keeping the town dance-free. Ren and his classmates want to do away with this ordinance, especially since the senior prom is around the corner, but only Ren has the courage to initiate a battle to abolish the outmoded ban and revitalize the spirit of the repressed townspeople.

Porky's II - The Next Day: When the students of Angel Beach High decide to stage "An Evening With Shakespeare," their efforts are threatened by Miss Balbricker, who views the works of Shakespeare as obscene. She enlists the help of Reverend Bubba Flavel, a religious fanatic who brings along his flock of followers to pressure the school into shutting down the production. When they succeed with the help of corrupt city officials seeking re-election, the gang don't get mad... they get even!

The Birdcage: A gay cabaret owner and his drag queen companion agree to put up a false straight front so that their son can introduce them to his fiancé's right-wing moralistic parents.

Saved!: Mary ('Jena Malone' ) is a good Christian girl who goes to a good Christian high school where she has good Christian friends, mainly Hilary Faye ('Mandy Moore (II)' ), and a perfect Christian boyfriend, Dean ('Chad Faust' ). Her life seems perfect, until the day that she finds out that Dean may be gay. After "seeing" a vision of Jesus in a pool, she does everything in her power to help him turn straight, including offering up her virginity. But none of it helps because Dean's caught and sent to a "degayification" center and Mary ends up pregnant. In a Christian school (not Catholic), the fanatic and wealthy Hilary Faye (Mandy Moore) and Mary (Jena Malone) are best friends. Their friendship ends when Mary gets pregnant, after having sex with her gay boy-friend trying to "save" him, and questions Jesus' will.

Heaven Help Us: In this coming-of-age comedy set in 1965, Michael Dunn is a recently orphaned Boston teenager who is sent with his younger sister to live with their grandparents in Brooklyn. Once there, he befriends his misfit Catholic school classmates and a reluctant young monk, rebelling and discovering who they are, and often with hilarious results. Michael also falls for Dani, the local hangout owner's tough-as-nails daughter. But the repressive monks of St. Basil's will stop at nothing to prove that their ways are the right ways and their word is law...even if it means destroying their relationship.

There are others, but it's late and I'm tired. I'm sure these will all be dismissed in one way or another by most of you. And yes, I admit that Hollywood is somewhat turning around and producing some pro-Christian films as well...probably because they see a market which has been largely untapped for many years and wish to cash in on it by catering to that type of audience.

[heavycola]

A lot of "wrongdoing" went on in the OT and God did not intervene. The OT is actually full of these instances. And there , no doubt, has been God intervention in modern times (but quickly brushed aside by a skeptical world) The 4 day war between Israel and Egypt is a great example.

No doubt? Great example?
Yeah, he is really looking out for Israel. Try not to confuse the US administration with god. I know you can do it. Ask Mordechai Vanunu if he feels protected by yahweh.

And HERE is the dichotomy: 'god gave us free will' - so why intervene in the isreal/egypt war? And why help the yanks fight off the british? Wars are products of free will. Why not intervene and stop the spread of bird flu, which has nothing to do with free will? You can;t haver it both ways. I realise arguing with you is like talking to a child who has put its fingers in its ears and is going 'LALALALALALA' but i can't help myself.

[jay_a2j]

Jay, Jay, Jay.

You said God hates. From what I know, God does not hate, He loves. Why else would He send His only Son to die for us? Unless you are talking about the people that wrote the books of the Old Testament believing that God hates, then fine.
You also said God hates sin. Again, from what I know, we sin. Does that mean God hates you? Because you sin? Or is it because you are one less sin than a homosexual person, He loves you?

Skittles, Skittles, Skittles,


God hates sin. He does not want us to sin. He does love us and knows that we will sin (its our nature). So He made a way we could be forgiven of our sin (Jesus paid for our sin for us). But we must receive the forgiveness by accepting Christ and turning from sin. Sin is sin. Weather it be 10 or 10,000,000 we cannot have a relationship with God in sin.

[Anarchist]

It amazes me at how childish the world is....

Gods Love is Unconditional
hate is a strong word, quit putting words in gods mouth.
(wish he would speak for himself)
besides I thought he was supposed to be a god of love, not one of hate as many christians seem to imply.

Homosexuality does tend to be driven by lust(not all) however I would guess most heterosexual encounters are too.

[unriggable]

Those are the "seven deadly sins" which I have never seen in scripture. Those are not the only sins.

So what makes homosexuality any more of a potential sin than heterosexuality?

A lot of "wrongdoing" went on in the OT and God did not intervene. The OT is actually full of these instances. And there , no doubt, has been God intervention in modern times (but quickly brushed aside by a skeptical world) The 4 day war between Israel and Egypt is a great example.

God never intervenes, trust me. Nobody here's a booming voice from the sky "And I am the LORD and you will do as I say"

That's where faith comes in. The Bible proves itself to be God's Word. That outcast was something else! He has made 1000's of predictions that have been fulfilled!

EXACTLY. Since it is your personal belief that God exists, your idea of God is no different than your superego (the part of your mind that keeps you 'in line' with the world). To you it feels as though this is another person / view of you, but it is really just you judging others / yourself.

As for predictions, they happen because the Bible is the most widespread book in the world and people want to make the unfinished predictions come true. An example is the re-foundation of Israel.

[Bertros Bertros]

I have only seen Footloose and Porkys from that list, were the others straight to video? And there all listed as comedy, and nearly all 10 - 20 years old... Is this really Hollywood pushing an anti-Christian agenda?

And then, in bold no less in case I missed it, luns let slip the truth behind the power of religion...

After "seeing" a vision of Jesus in a pool, she does everything in her power to help him turn straight, including offering up her virginity.

I never realised it had this effect on virgins, never seemed like that in stuffy old CofE... We're really missing out if this is what evangelical Christianity is all about, balls to this atheism milarkey, I'm switching sides!


Yes I know i part quoted you and the hypocrisy feels as good as a virgin who saw a recent vision of Jesus...