Peloponnesian War [Done]

[Woodruff]

I think there may still be one graphical-based problem with the map. The area surrounding the Samotkrace/Imbrians area is not clear enough. Basically, the two areas need to be spaced a bit further apart, as it's too easy to mis-read the map there thinking there might be a connection. It should be easy enough to just shift the Imbrians southwest a tad bit to make it more clear. I do think this is a serious problem, particularly as the map comes out of Beta and more people begin to play it for the first time.

[Qwert]

by Woodruff » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:46 am

I think there may still be one graphical-based problem with the map. The area surrounding the Samotkrace/Imbrians area is not clear enough. Basically, the two areas need to be spaced a bit further apart, as it's too easy to mis-read the map there thinking there might be a connection. It should be easy enough to just shift the Imbrians southwest a tad bit to make it more clear. I do think this is a serious problem, particularly as the map comes out of Beta and more people begin to play it for the first time.

Well from begining,i check almost 50 random games,and from game chat i must say that im not find any comfirmacion who will say that people get confused with imbrians or samothrace,well even mine opponents(play 24 games over 50 opponents),dont say any words that have problems with Samothrace or Imbrians positions.
These second-well i dont know how many people will play when map go out of beta,but now you have over 300 active game,and i doubt that these can go high(only Eastern Front have over 700 active games in begining),so i realy think that samothrace and imbrian area is very nice clear for people.

[oaktown]

I will agree with you on this one, qwert... those two islands and fairly well separated.

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about Euboeans - the island is very close to the mainland in two spots, and almost touching on the small map. I guess it hasn't been a problem for anybody.

[Incandenza]

I will agree with you on this one, qwert... those two islands and fairly well separated.

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about Euboeans - the island is very close to the mainland in two spots, and almost touching on the small map. I guess it hasn't been a problem for anybody.

I thought this would be a problem too, and mentioned it during production, but I'm happy that I was incorrect... I guess people sometimes are smarter than I give them credit for.

[Qwert]

by oaktown » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:50 am

I will agree with you on this one, qwert... those two islands and fairly well separated.

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about Euboeans - the island is very close to the mainland in two spots, and almost touching on the small map. I guess it hasn't been a problem for anybody.

Like i say,i random check many games chat,and people realy dont have any complaining abouth connections or gameplay, and from begining they play games,like play these map for 100 times.

incandenza
I thought this would be a problem too, and mentioned it during production, but I'm happy that I was incorrect... I guess people sometimes are smarter than I give them credit for.

I remember incandenza,that i have agrement with you that i will move a little these issle if people start complaining,but again i whas correct, that people are very smart,and that will very fast figure what is what on these map. Well when you look carefull,these map dont have any confusing connections,and all areas is very clear.
Well i think that these map dont have any other issues. Its ready to go out of beta,and that i finaly go out of Map Foundry.

[Incandenza]

How about bumping up any non-border sword terit (Dorian Cycladians, Ambraciotes, and Thracian Odyrsi) to 4 neutrals? Less of a cakewalk that way.

I still feel that this is a good idea, or at least worth discussing.

[Qwert]

Incandenza maybe you notice that you and me discuse more then others,i mean to say,nobody posting nothing abouth gameplay,and these mean that map is ready to go out of beta. People are satisfy,im satisfy,everybody is satisfy.
The end of movie.

[saaimen]

Hey qwert, no need to get irritated like that.
You haven't really reacted to the suggestion Incandenza brought up. You say nobody's posting anything about gameplay, but he did and you simply ignored it.
If you think his suggestion is not a good idea, fair enough, but please explain us why then.

[Woodruff]

I will agree with you on this one, qwert... those two islands and fairly well separated.

So...there's room to separate them a bit more, but it's not going to happen because the developer isn't interested in making the map a bit clearer, even though it would take almost no effort to make the improvement.

I had heard some pretty bad things about how insulated and cliquey the mapmakers had become. I guess they were true.

[oaktown]

So...there's room to separate them a bit more, but it's not going to happen because the developer isn't interested in making the map a bit clearer, even though it would take almost no effort to make the improvement.

I had heard some pretty bad things about how insulated and cliquey the mapmakers had become. I guess they were true.

LOL! I never thought I would see the day when somebody would say that qwert and I were "cliquey"! After the fights we've had in here, this is classic.

I think that the issue is not that the mapmaker is too lazy to make this change, but that the change is not necessary. Even on the small map there are at least 20 pixels of sea between the two territories in question - in fact there is so much space qwert ran a word between the islands and you can still see blue. Hell, any two islands on this map could be spaced farther apart - we're just trying to identify the ones that actually are a problem and why.

Now, if the concern is that the word between the islands makes it looks like an attack route, then there might be something here worth discussing. But what you said, Woodruff, is that "the two areas need to be spaced a bit further apart." If you want to be more clear as to what you think the problem is we're all ears.

[Qwert]

by saaimen » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:14 am

Hey qwert, no need to get irritated like that.
You haven't really reacted to the suggestion Incandenza brought up. You say nobody's posting anything about gameplay, but he did and you simply ignored it.
If you think his suggestion is not a good idea, fair enough, but please explain us why then.

Im not iritated,its just fact that me and incandenza work on these gameplay together,and he give me a gameplay stamp,and these is fact, and im all ready give hem answer on these observation,but ofcourse people dont want to read all post,just last post.

So...there's room to separate them a bit more, but it's not going to happen because the developer isn't interested in making the map a bit clearer, even though it would take almost no effort to make the improvement.

I had heard some pretty bad things about how insulated and cliquey the mapmakers had become. I guess they were true.

Woodryff i give you normal valid answer,that these not create any problems in games,and nobody complain abouth that. And you also just gues that these can be problem, but these is not problem,and these show many game logs in these map,also 5 month in development not show any issue abouth that. If you not satisfy with these answer,then i dont know what answer you want to provide you.

[oaktown]

Woodryff i give you normal valid answer,that these not create any problems in games,and nobody complain abouth that. And you also just gues that these can be problem, but these is not problem,and these show many game logs in these map,also 5 month in development not show any issue abouth that. If you not satisfy with these answer,then i dont know what answer you want to provide you.

I can see why Woodruff would not be satisfied with your answer, qwert, because you have yet to address his concern. Telling people that "it's fine because nobody else has a problem with it" completely disregards Woodruff's comment. Every issue has to be raised for a first time by somebody - if we dismissed every concern because it's the first time it's been mentioned, we could dismiss every concern.

And to say that the gameplay is perfect because you and iancanton agreed on it is a bit disingenuous. You insisted that this map go to live play despite a chorus of voices that had issues with the gameplay, promising that you woould fix any problems in BETA. Then you yourself found problems, but you elected not to fix them because it would disrupt current games. Now people are raising concerns, and you're saying that the map has been fine from the start and that nobody has any problems with it. You know this isn't true.

I've largely handed off my Forge powers - I'm not stamping XML or overseeing the BETA maps anymore - but I hope that this is the last time a mapmaker is allowed to get away with this kind of behavior.

[Woodruff]

So...there's room to separate them a bit more, but it's not going to happen because the developer isn't interested in making the map a bit clearer, even though it would take almost no effort to make the improvement.

I had heard some pretty bad things about how insulated and cliquey the mapmakers had become. I guess they were true.

LOL! I never thought I would see the day when somebody would say that qwert and I were "cliquey"! After the fights we've had in here, this is classic.

I think that the issue is not that the mapmaker is too lazy to make this change, but that the change is not necessary. Even on the small map there are at least 20 pixels of sea between the two territories in question - in fact there is so much space qwert ran a word between the islands and you can still see blue. Hell, any two islands on this map could be spaced farther apart - we're just trying to identify the ones that actually are a problem and why.

Now, if the concern is that the word between the islands makes it looks like an attack route, then there might be something here worth discussing. But what you said, Woodruff, is that "the two areas need to be spaced a bit further apart." If you want to be more clear as to what you think the problem is we're all ears.

Yes, that's precisely the point. I'm not a "graphics guy", so I really don't care how pretty or nice looking a map is. I'm a gameplay guy, so I'm concerned when the design of a map negatively affects the gameplay. In my opinion, it does appear that there 'could be' an attack route at that location, and I would even go so far as to say that it is precisely those words that swim across that small channel that assist in "clouding the clarity" between those two points, making it appear as though there might be an attack point there. So perhaps rather than moving the islands further apart, all that may need to happen is that the Greek lettering be removed from that particular area.

I stared at the map really hard before making the moves that I THOUGHT would lead me to Imbrians, so it wasn't a casual or callous mistake on my part.

It's not just me that feels this way. I've only played two games on the map, and one of my two opponents agrees with me, as seen here:
http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=4723550

Now I realize that still only makes two of us (plus Incandenza, perhaps), but I believe that's enough to warrant a more serious look at the map in that spot.

[oaktown]

thanks for the clarification Woodruff... while I personally think it's pretty clear, I can see how you could misread the map in this way. An easy and very quick solution would be to move the second line of greek text below the first, and off-set to the right a bit, then move "Imbrians" up and to the right a few pixels.

[Qwert]

Oaktown you realy good know what whas problem in development,or what you want to be problem,and these whas complete gameplay,you insist to be asymetric,and i belive that need to be symetric(all equal),and these whas mine agrement,not to change something what is not been issue in any way.

Oaktown
I've largely handed off my Forge powers - I'm not stamping XML or overseeing the BETA maps anymore - but I hope that this is the last time a mapmaker is allowed to get away with this kind of behavior.

Mine attention is to leave these place ASAP, because im also can not work any more with this kind of behavior to.If i can be banned from Map Foundry,then i will ban mine self imediatly,but unfortunatly i dont have power to do so.
I can not forget how you torture me for one mont,and only because you think that gameplay is bad. When i want to change gameplay in beta stage,majority of people dont want to change ,and im abandone these(mine)idea. Again i repeat(something what you all ready know) that issue for change in Beta stage whas whole Gameplay(and i dont talk abouth graphic), but its show that Gameplay is Ok.
Woodryff speak of Graphic(these is not gameplay),and i must say that these issue is not been any rise for all developmen period,and i still belive that these can not be issue.
Im realy tired of all these place here, and i realy need to leave these place. If CA thinks that these so call "issue" is a problem for people,then you can hold peloponnesian map permanently in beta stage,because im start to not care abouth everything here, and now i will leave these forum, these is mine last post(and im realy mean that).

[oaktown]

I will agree with you on this one, qwert... those two islands and fairly well separated.

the change is not necessary.

I personally think it's pretty clear...

I think that I have made my position clear about the islands in question. I just think that it would be polite to at least respond to Woodruff's concern.

[Woodruff]

Oaktown you realy good know what whas problem in development,or what you want to be problem,and these whas complete gameplay,you insist to be asymetric,and i belive that need to be symetric(all equal),and these whas mine agrement,not to change something what is not been issue in any way.

You say that it has not been an issue in any way in direct response to statements about an issue with it?

Hmmm...I must admit, I don't follow that logic.

Im realy tired of all these place here, and i realy need to leave these place. If CA thinks that these so call "issue" is a problem for people,then you can hold peloponnesian map permanently in beta stage,because im start to not care abouth everything here, and now i will leave these forum, these is mine last post(and im realy mean that).

Oh brother.

[saaimen]

Great attitude

qwert, you've made fantastic maps. It's sometimes hard to stay dedicated, especially when problems arise when you think there are no problems.
But apparently, there are issues with the gameplay and the graphics indeed. Nobody hates you, we just want maps on CC to be as good as they can be. Nobody's torturing you. There would be no reason to leave the Foundry if you didn't take criticism on a map you made so personally.

[Woodruff]

Great attitude

qwert, you've made fantastic maps. It's sometimes hard to stay dedicated, especially when problems arise when you think there are no problems.
But apparently, there are issues with the gameplay and the graphics indeed. Nobody hates you, we just want maps on CC to be as good as they can be. Nobody's torturing you. There would be no reason to leave the Foundry if you didn't take criticism on a map you made so personally.

(This is really directed more to qwert than saaimen, who I agree with)

As the guy with the most recent "concern" of this map, I should point out...I LOVE qwert's maps. I would HATE for him to stop making them. He's my favorite mapmaker, and it's not close. And my concern with Pelopennosian is because I DO like the map. If I didn't care about it, I wouldn't bother.

So it's definitely not personal and, in fact, I would say it's a compliment.

[LFAW]

Just played this map for the first time, very well done Qwert its lovely

[Bandido]

I've just start playing your map and I want to say : Wow !!! Tnx qwert

[Lelle67]

Lelle67: Dident I win. I have capture 8 shilds?
2009-05-12 03:50:32 - IWKU: gg gentlemen
2009-05-12 04:32:16 - GenuineEarlGrey: You have them and you have to hold them
2009-05-12 04:32:51 - GenuineEarlGrey: If I don't get one on my next turn, you win
2009-05-12 04:38:50 - Lelle67: If I have nown I had chosen another tactic
2009-05-12 18:42:19 - GenuineEarlGrey: You need to email this to the discussion on the map....
2009-05-12 18:42:28 - GenuineEarlGrey: ....the map does say "capture" not hold

[saaimen]

Lelle67: Dident I win. I have capture 8 shilds?
2009-05-12 03:50:32 - IWKU: gg gentlemen
2009-05-12 04:32:16 - GenuineEarlGrey: You have them and you have to hold them
2009-05-12 04:32:51 - GenuineEarlGrey: If I don't get one on my next turn, you win
2009-05-12 04:38:50 - Lelle67: If I have nown I had chosen another tactic
2009-05-12 18:42:19 - GenuineEarlGrey: You need to email this to the discussion on the map....
2009-05-12 18:42:28 - GenuineEarlGrey: ....the map does say "capture" not hold

See, qwert? I told you ...

For people who KNOW objectives have to be held for one turn, it's logical.
But why not make it clear on your map anyways?

[GenuineEarlGrey]

That's Game 4752662

And its still going... darn good game... darn fine map.

"Capture" looks so cool on the map, but in reality you do have to "hold" to win.

You could of course, change the winning condition and leave the map the same

Lelle67: Dident I win. I have capture 8 shilds?
2009-05-12 03:50:32 - IWKU: gg gentlemen
2009-05-12 04:32:16 - GenuineEarlGrey: You have them and you have to hold them
2009-05-12 04:32:51 - GenuineEarlGrey: If I don't get one on my next turn, you win
2009-05-12 04:38:50 - Lelle67: If I have nown I had chosen another tactic
2009-05-12 18:42:19 - GenuineEarlGrey: You need to email this to the discussion on the map....
2009-05-12 18:42:28 - GenuineEarlGrey: ....the map does say "capture" not hold

See, qwert? I told you ...

For people who KNOW objectives have to be held for one turn, it's logical.
But why not make it clear on your map anyways?

[oaktown]

You could of course, change the winning condition and leave the map the same

actually he can't - CC requires a hold.