Essentially, belief in God is based on fear of death.
Or, counter factually, would anyone belive in God if they were immortal?
Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?
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b.k. barunt
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Jehan
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I think if we were immortal we wouldn't have such a hard time believing in an immortal God right?suggs wrote:Essentially, belief in God is based on fear of death.
Or, counter factually, would anyone belive in God if they were immortal?
If someone becomes a Christian because of fear of death, i dont think it stays that way for long.
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daddy1gringo
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Getting back to your original question, why I believe, I’m going to say something a little dangerous: I don’t believe because of reason or logic. That is dangerous because many will make the jump to take that to mean that I believe *contrary to* reason and logic, and that is not the case.
I think it’s been proven pretty effectively, both in this thread and others, that while science, facts, and logic cannot prove that God exists, neither can they prove that he does not. Nevertheless, somehow an impression has been created that asserting that God exists is blind faith, and asserting that he does not is reason. That is simply not true. Believing that God does not exist is no more rational than believing that he does. As others have said, those who believe God does not exist, do so because that is what they have chosen to believe, just as much as, and I believe more so than, those of us who believe He does.
If it were true that in order to be rational you had to disbelieve God, there would have to be proof, or at least overwhelming evidence that he is not. Although several of them have at various times mentioned this supposed proof or evidence, they can never produce it. I cannot prove by facts and logic that God exists. But I can, by facts and logic, disprove any argument that purports to prove He does not.
What you usually get is something that starts with “Well, if there were a God he would/wouldn’t do X. Either it’s the evil in the world, or something in the Bible that is against the laws of nature, or is apparently cruel or contradictory, or to what extent he would go to make his existence evident to people. But that’s not logic. As a matter of fact it’s extremely illogical.
Let’s deal with that a moment. The beginning premise of these assertions is “*IF* God, the God of the Bible, existed…” *If* such a god exists, he created all of the minds that have ever existed and gave them their capacity to think. Yours, mine, MeDeFe’s, DaVinci’s etc., etc. If he exists his plans are constantly taking into account everything from the galaxies to the electrons, from the actions and intentions of the greatest ruler to those of the humblest beggar, past, present and future. If he exists, he exists outside of our 4 dimensions and laws of nature, since he created them. Do you really think that one finite human mind is going to understand always his plan and actions?
The answer always comes, “Oh yeah, hide behind ‘it’s a mystery, we can’t understand it,’ that’s an intellectual cop out!” But the intellectual cop out is not facing that your supposed “proof” doesn’t prove anything. It is absolutely logical, given the premise, to realize that we are not going to understand all of the things he does, and absolutely illogical to expect that we would.
You can't ask me to prove that it is reasonable that God exists, starting with the premise that he does not. That is illogical. You can't start a hypothesis with a particular premise, and then withdraw it at the end when it is inconvenient.
No, coffeecream, you don’t have to throw away your brain or deny reason to believe in God, and in Jesus Christ, just give it its proper place. Logic is a useful servant, but a lousy master. Logic does not have the answer to everything. Try relying on logic when you are talking to a friend who has just lost a loved one, or when you yourself have. Try employing logic to communicate to your wife how you love her. Actually, to most of the most important things in life, logic does not have the answer.
There are several people I have heard of who set out to disprove God, or Jesus, or the Bible, and became believers, convinced by the facts, but I believe that is not usually the way it is. His call is to something deeper than your intellect. He calls you in everything that is beautiful, from the sunset to the female form, from Victoria Falls to Pachelbel’s Canon. He calls you in every noble thing inside you that yearns to be expressed, and every ignoble thing that cries to be healed.
I’ve got more to say about what IS the reason I believe, but I’d better get this posted and leave that for another post. I hope this is helpful.
I think it’s been proven pretty effectively, both in this thread and others, that while science, facts, and logic cannot prove that God exists, neither can they prove that he does not. Nevertheless, somehow an impression has been created that asserting that God exists is blind faith, and asserting that he does not is reason. That is simply not true. Believing that God does not exist is no more rational than believing that he does. As others have said, those who believe God does not exist, do so because that is what they have chosen to believe, just as much as, and I believe more so than, those of us who believe He does.
If it were true that in order to be rational you had to disbelieve God, there would have to be proof, or at least overwhelming evidence that he is not. Although several of them have at various times mentioned this supposed proof or evidence, they can never produce it. I cannot prove by facts and logic that God exists. But I can, by facts and logic, disprove any argument that purports to prove He does not.
What you usually get is something that starts with “Well, if there were a God he would/wouldn’t do X. Either it’s the evil in the world, or something in the Bible that is against the laws of nature, or is apparently cruel or contradictory, or to what extent he would go to make his existence evident to people. But that’s not logic. As a matter of fact it’s extremely illogical.
Let’s deal with that a moment. The beginning premise of these assertions is “*IF* God, the God of the Bible, existed…” *If* such a god exists, he created all of the minds that have ever existed and gave them their capacity to think. Yours, mine, MeDeFe’s, DaVinci’s etc., etc. If he exists his plans are constantly taking into account everything from the galaxies to the electrons, from the actions and intentions of the greatest ruler to those of the humblest beggar, past, present and future. If he exists, he exists outside of our 4 dimensions and laws of nature, since he created them. Do you really think that one finite human mind is going to understand always his plan and actions?
The answer always comes, “Oh yeah, hide behind ‘it’s a mystery, we can’t understand it,’ that’s an intellectual cop out!” But the intellectual cop out is not facing that your supposed “proof” doesn’t prove anything. It is absolutely logical, given the premise, to realize that we are not going to understand all of the things he does, and absolutely illogical to expect that we would.
You can't ask me to prove that it is reasonable that God exists, starting with the premise that he does not. That is illogical. You can't start a hypothesis with a particular premise, and then withdraw it at the end when it is inconvenient.
No, coffeecream, you don’t have to throw away your brain or deny reason to believe in God, and in Jesus Christ, just give it its proper place. Logic is a useful servant, but a lousy master. Logic does not have the answer to everything. Try relying on logic when you are talking to a friend who has just lost a loved one, or when you yourself have. Try employing logic to communicate to your wife how you love her. Actually, to most of the most important things in life, logic does not have the answer.
There are several people I have heard of who set out to disprove God, or Jesus, or the Bible, and became believers, convinced by the facts, but I believe that is not usually the way it is. His call is to something deeper than your intellect. He calls you in everything that is beautiful, from the sunset to the female form, from Victoria Falls to Pachelbel’s Canon. He calls you in every noble thing inside you that yearns to be expressed, and every ignoble thing that cries to be healed.
I’ve got more to say about what IS the reason I believe, but I’d better get this posted and leave that for another post. I hope this is helpful.
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CoffeeCream
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Yeah, that's helpful. You'll forgive me if I don't respond immediately because I'm still checking out all the prophecies that Luns posted. CrazyAnglican also gave a response to my question so I'm considering what he said as well. By the way, what happened to OnlyAmbrose or other Jesus Freaks?
I guess what you're saying is that there has to be some level of faith involved in whether you believe the Bible & Jesus. I know that doesn't do your entire post justice but that's what I got from it. Yeah, I put faith in many things in my life. I just don't know if I have the level of faith to say the Bible is true. I see Christians who live what they preach and then others who are like everyone else.
I will tell you one thing. It is a totally different experience from actually reading the Bible for myself than what I believed from listening to others. I've even been looking a little bit at Romans.
I guess what you're saying is that there has to be some level of faith involved in whether you believe the Bible & Jesus. I know that doesn't do your entire post justice but that's what I got from it. Yeah, I put faith in many things in my life. I just don't know if I have the level of faith to say the Bible is true. I see Christians who live what they preach and then others who are like everyone else.
I will tell you one thing. It is a totally different experience from actually reading the Bible for myself than what I believed from listening to others. I've even been looking a little bit at Romans.
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OnlyAmbrose
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THORNHEART
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christians who live what they preach or not: ok for someone who knows the earth is round but acts as if it isnt does that change that the earth is round?
same with christians who dont act like christians it doesnt change the fact that god exists.or that th christianity is true it just proves that humans are failible and dont always do whats right.these christians bring a bad name to christianity as a whole but that doesnt change the truth.
man loved darkness because they were evil and did not come to the light lest their evil deeds be reproved.
same with christians who dont act like christians it doesnt change the fact that god exists.or that th christianity is true it just proves that humans are failible and dont always do whats right.these christians bring a bad name to christianity as a whole but that doesnt change the truth.
man loved darkness because they were evil and did not come to the light lest their evil deeds be reproved.
Prove that something does not exist? Agreed. It is very hard to prove, for example, that Leprechauns do not exist. Yet, most people believe they do not. Is it because they simply lack faith? Or because rational people realize that this is a superstition invented by man to explain away mysteries.daddy1gringo wrote:I think it’s been proven pretty effectively, both in this thread and others, that while science, facts, and logic cannot prove that God exists, neither can they prove that he does not.
Probably not to you, as you obviously have blind faith in a god. To those with clear heads, it is more obvious.daddy1gringo wrote:Nevertheless, somehow an impression has been created that asserting that God exists is blind faith, and asserting that he does not is reason. That is simply not true.
Then by this reasoning, you must also believe in Leprechauns. After all you cannot prove they do not exist so by your thinking, they must.daddy1gringo wrote:Believing that God does not exist is no more rational than believing that he does. As others have said, those who believe God does not exist, do so because that is what they have chosen to believe, just as much as, and I believe more so than, those of us who believe He does.
But that is only because it never existed in the first place. Please prove RA the Sun God, Poseidon or Quetzalcoatl do not exist. You cannot, so perhaps you are worshiping the wrong god, eh?daddy1gringo wrote:I cannot prove by facts and logic that God exists. But I can, by facts and logic, disprove any argument that purports to prove He does not.
It is extremely illogical to think that an all powerful, all knowing god who wants us all to trust and worship him, yet never shows himself, and allows horrible things on the world he supposedly created, exists? That's not logic. That is delusion.daddy1gringo wrote:What you usually get is something that starts with “Well, if there were a God he would/wouldn’t do X. Either it’s the evil in the world, or something in the Bible that is against the laws of nature, or is apparently cruel or contradictory, or to what extent he would go to make his existence evident to people. But that’s not logic. As a matter of fact it’s extremely illogical.
Wanting with all your heart, very badly, for something to exist does not make it exist.
Ah yes the "we cannot fathom his actions" defense. He never shows himself or acts upon any of the ugliness of the world, therefor it must be that we just don't understand him. This is just convenient wishful thinking for an absent diety.daddy1gringo wrote:The beginning premise of these assertions is “*IF* God, the God of the Bible, existed…” *If* such a god exists, he created all of the minds that have ever existed and gave them their capacity to think. Yours, mine, MeDeFe’s, DaVinci’s etc., etc. If he exists his plans are constantly taking into account everything from the galaxies to the electrons, from the actions and intentions of the greatest ruler to those of the humblest beggar, past, present and future. If he exists, he exists outside of our 4 dimensions and laws of nature, since he created them. Do you really think that one finite human mind is going to understand always his plan and actions?
Pretty much...yes.daddy1gringo wrote:The answer always comes, “Oh yeah, hide behind ‘it’s a mystery, we can’t understand it,’ that’s an intellectual cop out!”
Again, please PROVE that Fire Breathing Dragons don't exist. You cannot. ..but this does not make them exist either.daddy1gringo wrote:But the intellectual cop out is not facing that your supposed “proof” doesn’t prove anything. It is absolutely logical, given the premise, to realize that we are not going to understand all of the things he does, and absolutely illogical to expect that we would.
Yet it is perfectly acceptable for you to withdraw a perfectly logical premise of non-existence by saying "we cannot fathom his actions because he is so great". That is a double-standard and indeed a convenient cop-out.daddy1gringo wrote:You can't ask me to prove that it is reasonable that God exists, starting with the premise that he does not. That is illogical. You can't start a hypothesis with a particular premise, and then withdraw it at the end when it is inconvenient.
And just this week I met a 30 year old man with a degree in Theology who recently, after studying religions for many years, discarded christianity after having come to his own conclusion that god(s) don't exist.daddy1gringo wrote:There are several people I have heard of who set out to disprove God, or Jesus, or the Bible, and became believers, convinced by the facts, but I believe that is not usually the way it is.
Who is the wiser?
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Alright Backglass, you have made the case for your own beliefs:
Please don't try to tell us that you are 'no more, no less'. You are trying to disrupt a conversation between CoffeeCream & the Jesus Freaks. If it bothers you so much that people don't buy into your personal beliefs then start a thread of your own where you can proselityze all you want. You spend an awful lot of time arguing against things you don't believe exist.Backglass wrote:I am an atheist, simply because I don't believe that supernatural gods exist. No more, no less.
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Snorri1234
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Pointing out someone is wrong isn't a bad thing to do. Backglass isn't saying that gringo is wrong in his beliefs, he's saying that he is wrong regarding his reasoning.beezer wrote:Alright Backglass, you have made the case for your own beliefs:
Please don't try to tell us that you are 'no more, no less'. You are trying to disrupt a conversation between CoffeeCream & the Jesus Freaks. If it bothers you so much that people don't buy into your personal beliefs then start a thread of your own where you can proselityze all you want. You spend an awful lot of time arguing against things you don't believe exist.Backglass wrote:I am an atheist, simply because I don't believe that supernatural gods exist. No more, no less.
Then there should be no problem with him starting a thread where he can argue this with Daddy1gringo or anyone else. You're missing the point. The title of this thread is "Jesus Freaks, why do you believe." It's obvious that he's addressing certain members here and asking them questions. Backglass can't handle that and is trying to disrupt the conversation to the best of his ability. That is not the action of a neutral person, but someone who is desperately trying to stop an inquiring soul from a possible conversion by ridicule.Snorri1234 wrote:Pointing out someone is wrong isn't a bad thing to do. Backglass isn't saying that gringo is wrong in his beliefs, he's saying that he is wrong regarding his reasoning.
Backglass was never asked his opinion on anything by CoffeeCream and he certainly doesn't need to ask for permission on how he reasons out his own quest for truth.
Yes! I am so desperate! I just can't handle it! AGHHH!! THE TORTURE!beezer wrote:Backglass can't handle that and is trying to disrupt the conversation to the best of his ability. That is not the action of a neutral person, but someone who is desperately trying to stop an inquiring soul from a possible conversion by ridicule.
It seems to me that it is you that is desperate to keep opposing views from shattering your rose colored glasses. Do my points make you uncomfortable? From your tone they obvoiously make you angry. Why? If I were you I would try to determine why pointed, valid responses about your absent diety anger you so.
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this thread is a debate. Don't believe me? Go and read back.beezer wrote:Then there should be no problem with him starting a thread where he can argue this with Daddy1gringo or anyone else. You're missing the point. The title of this thread is "Jesus Freaks, why do you believe." It's obvious that he's addressing certain members here and asking them questions. Backglass can't handle that and is trying to disrupt the conversation to the best of his ability. That is not the action of a neutral person, but someone who is desperately trying to stop an inquiring soul from a possible conversion by ridicule.Snorri1234 wrote:Pointing out someone is wrong isn't a bad thing to do. Backglass isn't saying that gringo is wrong in his beliefs, he's saying that he is wrong regarding his reasoning.
Backglass was never asked his opinion on anything by CoffeeCream and he certainly doesn't need to ask for permission on how he reasons out his own quest for truth.
To answer coffeecream,
The best way to find out why certain people believe certain things, is to study those people and what they believe.
people who are Christian rely on the bible to find out what they need to know about god, so If you study the bible, then you would understand why they believe what they believe.
I once heard this great saying, it goes like this...
Believing is all about choice..
No one can choose for you and no one can make you choose.
That is why there is free will, so you can choose what you are to believe.
The bible was written by different men, and it is what they believed.
If you can't understand the bible by reading it on your own, there are churches and bible studies.
You will only be able to make the best choice by really studying. Other wise, what you choose to believe may be based on pure ignorance.
The best way to find out why certain people believe certain things, is to study those people and what they believe.
people who are Christian rely on the bible to find out what they need to know about god, so If you study the bible, then you would understand why they believe what they believe.
I once heard this great saying, it goes like this...
Believing is all about choice..
No one can choose for you and no one can make you choose.
That is why there is free will, so you can choose what you are to believe.
The bible was written by different men, and it is what they believed.
If you can't understand the bible by reading it on your own, there are churches and bible studies.
You will only be able to make the best choice by really studying. Other wise, what you choose to believe may be based on pure ignorance.
Let me see if I follow. The bible holds all the answers. It was written by different men, thousands of years ago. The assumption is that what these men wrote is the transcribed "word" of an unseen diety and not their own personal/political motives from this ancient time. Correct?Beastly wrote:To answer coffeecream,
The best way to find out why certain people believe certain things, is to study those people and what they believe.
people who are Christian rely on the bible to find out what they need to know about god, so If you study the bible, then you would understand why they believe what they believe.
I once heard this great saying, it goes like this...
Believing is all about choice..
No one can choose for you and no one can make you choose.
That is why there is free will, so you can choose what you are to believe.
The bible was written by different men, and it is what they believed.
If you can't understand the bible by reading it on your own, there are churches and bible studies.
You will only be able to make the best choice by really studying. Other wise, what you choose to believe may be based on pure ignorance.
It would seem to me that any ignorance lies in believing all of the above is 100% accurate and without question.
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got tonkaed
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[threadjack]
i just saw recently a special on HBO about evangelicals in the United States. Though im familiar with most of the ideas and content they discuss there were a couple of things i was a bit more curious about.
There are seemingly an incredible number of different evangelical organizations which are working toward similar aims, but though different avenues. I was not aware of so many different organizations, for instance to get value voters out to vote (i assumed there were only a couple and they were big).
I was just wondering if anyone on CC is involved with or gets information from different conservative value groups and if so, what groups are they, what do they specialize in?
i just saw recently a special on HBO about evangelicals in the United States. Though im familiar with most of the ideas and content they discuss there were a couple of things i was a bit more curious about.
There are seemingly an incredible number of different evangelical organizations which are working toward similar aims, but though different avenues. I was not aware of so many different organizations, for instance to get value voters out to vote (i assumed there were only a couple and they were big).
I was just wondering if anyone on CC is involved with or gets information from different conservative value groups and if so, what groups are they, what do they specialize in?
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b.k. barunt
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I'm not one of the CC Jesus Freaks, but i peruse these discussions from time to time when Flame Wars gets boring. Some arguements here are interesting and well thought out, but most seem to be quasi religious tripe, and people simply following what they were taught to believe by their parents. There is one element here that has me really wondering though - "backglass". This individual puts an incredible amount of time and effort into disrupting these discussions with the same redundant cliches and stereotypical "i'msosmartbecausei'manatheist" blatherings. My question is why? Why does he put so much energy into attacking the beliefs of others?
I've done it myself to some extent, but this guy seems to be on some kind of crusade. Why is that? Is he a preacher's kid who suffers an oppressive enviroment in silence at home, and then goes nuts on the internet because of its anonymity? Is this simply a form of childish rebellion, or is there something more sinister in nature at the root of his rantings? Hell, let me come right out and ask it, even though he doesn't seem to be the type to give an honest answer - backglass, are you one of the unfortunate altar boys who got buggered by the parish priests? Just curious.
Honibaz
I've done it myself to some extent, but this guy seems to be on some kind of crusade. Why is that? Is he a preacher's kid who suffers an oppressive enviroment in silence at home, and then goes nuts on the internet because of its anonymity? Is this simply a form of childish rebellion, or is there something more sinister in nature at the root of his rantings? Hell, let me come right out and ask it, even though he doesn't seem to be the type to give an honest answer - backglass, are you one of the unfortunate altar boys who got buggered by the parish priests? Just curious.
Honibaz
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MeDeFe
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It's spelled D-E-I-T-YBackglass wrote:Let me see if I follow. The bible holds all the answers. It was written by different men, thousands of years ago. The assumption is that what these men wrote is the transcribed "word" of an unseen diety and not their own personal/political motives from this ancient time. Correct?
It would seem to me that any ignorance lies in believing all of the above is 100% accurate and without question.
Diet has nothing to do with it, unless you're dieting on herbs and mushrooms maybe... and some religious visions are weird enough to make one suppose that
This thread is an inquiry as to why certain members of Conquer Club believe in Jesus Christ. Don't believe me? Go back and read the title of this thread. Also, from the author's first post:Iliad wrote:this thread is a debate. Don't believe me? Go and read back.
CoffeeCream wrote:If the JF's here are willing I want to engage them in a discussion because I've got some questions for them.
If any Jesus Freaks or Christians want to discuss this I will listen and not call you a name or make fun of you.
Once again, very funny but also a refusal to either address the point or change the subject on your part. This thread isn't about your opinion as it wasn't addressed to one single atheist here. You have made it quite clear that you are not either a Jesus Freak or a Christian. Yet you have quite a chip on your shoulder when another individual won't agree with you on that and has questions of their own.Backglass wrote:Yes! I am so desperate! I just can't handle it! AGHHH!! THE TORTURE!
Then you should have no problem starting your own thread which demolishes Christian beliefs. You are free to do so and it would probably be quite entertaining. Yet you don't. What you do instead is try to disrupt a conversation between someone who is earnestly searching and a specific group of people who he's inquiring answers from.Backglass wrote:It seems to me that it is you that is desperate to keep opposing views from shattering your rose colored glasses. Do my points make you uncomfortable? From your tone they obvoiously make you angry. Why? If I were you I would try to determine why pointed, valid responses about your absent diety anger you so.
Your denial of God doesn't bother me. Your insistence on interrupting others is juvenile.
Last edited by beezer on Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MeDeFe
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I use Firefox, but not the spellchecker. I have sufficient faith in my own skills.Backglass wrote:MeDeFe wrote:Diet has nothing to do with it, unless you're dieting on herbs and mushrooms maybe... and some religious visions are weird enough to make one suppose that