Night Strike wrote:
Actually, I'm convinced it's a choice, not an illness. And yes, a counselor could tell anyone the benefits of their religion: that's how they can make themselves relational to others. If a person doesn't like what the counselor is saying, they leave that counselor. They don't have the right to demand the counselor is fired just because they disagree with them.
Of course they don't have the right to demand the counselor get's fired just because they disagree with them. The university that hands out the degree however has the full right to demand that people who want their degree follow their fucking standards. This might suprise you but there are rules for some professions. A doctor who refuses treatment can be made not a doctor by other doctors. A lawyer who breaks the rules can be made not a lawyer by other lawyers. A counselor who wants to ignore the rules before even becoming a counselor can rightly be refused to receive a degree.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."
Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
Woodruff wrote:Terrible ruling. If she's violated no laws in expressing her views, then they've got nothing on her. If she has violated some law, then prostitute her ass. I can't imagine this would stand up under the Supreme Court.
I want to see pictures before I can make a ruling on this.
I would, in all seriousness, appreciate it if you wouldn't change my words like that. Thank you.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
2dimes wrote:Fine. I'll just stop having fun on the internet then. It's like marriage.
1) Marriage is an absolute blast. If it's not, you're doing it wrong.
2) My wife would never do that to me.
3) Thank you.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
Would not a medical school be able to kick out a medical student for refusing to help a homosexual no matter what his religion or reason for not wanting to treat homosexuals? Or, are we suggesting that its ok for doctors to choose who to help and who not to, and to discriminate at will?
I dont think a college, especially a public one, can give out a degree, and certify someone who simply refuses to treat everyone. Im assuming this was the basis for the decision.
I agree, that perhaps after her schooling she may be able to choose what she does with her time, but if part of the course involves teaching counseling to people even of differing sexual persuasions, she cant possibly be expected to pass. Its clearly not that she believes in something that is why she was kicked out, but because she refused to complete part of the course.
If someones religion forbid them from touching blood, and a medical school kicked them out, would it be because of their religions beliefs, or because they cant possibly be expected to do the job that course is meant to certify and train them for.
Sexual orientation is a pretty big part of the human psyche, and ignoring it altogether and simply thinking its evil would probably make you one of the worst counselors ever. In fact, I suspect that one could say that one cant possibly be a counselor, if they simply think that homosexuality is a sin and that they refuse to counsel them. I would assume that they could not be certified as a counselor ever, if they lacked that qualification. Further, its obviously possible that she would eventually have a client that she thought was straight, and turned out to be homosexual, making her completely unqualified to counsel that person, and could very well, cause direct harm because of her incompetence to deal with the situation.
Im sure there are plenty of private colleges that would allow such a thing, but no tax money should be used to help a person complete a degree, that they simply state will be used in the most discriminatory manner, even before its given, especially since, it would mean graduating someone who could be said to be unqualified to do the actual job itself.
Last edited by AAFitz on Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm Spanking Monkey now....err...I mean I'm a Spanking Monkey now...that shoots milk Too much. I know.
Night Strike wrote:When a counselor comes across a situation they can't/won't discuss/treat, then they should be allowed to refer that person to another counselor. A person getting a degree does not have to conform to the beliefs of the school giving the degree because that is their personal beliefs. I'm sure there are many other areas where this woman could be an effective counselor, but because the school disagrees with her religious beliefs on homosexuality, she is kicked out. That is persecution based on religion, which is unconstitutional. There's no other way around it.
Read that bit that I posted, because it addresses this specifically better than I could.
Let me reframe this for you, though. Let's say the person she was to counsel was Muslim and she felt it was her duty to convert that Muslim to Christianity?
The problem is that you just don't want to accept that homosexuality is "normal". You are convinced it is an illness, but that is not how modern psychiatry sees it. It is a different way of life, one many Christians consider wrong. However, Christians consider many things wrong that society accepts.
Actually, I'm convinced it's a choice, not an illness. And yes, a counselor could tell anyone the benefits of their religion: that's how they can make themselves relational to others. If a person doesn't like what the counselor is saying, they leave that counselor. They don't have the right to demand the counselor is fired just because they disagree with them.
If the counselor is unqualified to do the job, however, because they do not understand the complexities of the psychological nature of a person however, they may indeed have the right to demand the counselor is fired. If the standard for counseling is that people are born homosexuals, and the counselor refuses to accept that in her training, she can no more be certified a counselor, than a math student can be certified a math degree if he believes 2+2=5. The course teaches that 2+2=4. If they refuse to accept that and teach others that, there's no way they get to be a math degree to teach others.
If an accounting major believes that taxes are evil, and that no one should pay taxes no matter what, Im pretty sure they will be kicked out too.
If you dont follow the course guidelines, you dont get to pass the class. There are other classes you can take, perhaps at private universities, but when you go to a public university, paid for by tax dollars, you are expected to adhere to the guidelines set forth by that university.
The title is pretty funny on this thread though. I wonder if a person killed someone because of their religions beliefs, if the title would be Judge convicts person for religious beliefs.
I'm Spanking Monkey now....err...I mean I'm a Spanking Monkey now...that shoots milk Too much. I know.
AAFitz wrote:Would not a medical school be able to kick out a medical school
Eh?
Wow. that is a tough one. I wonder what word I could possibly have meant there...I mean, the context makes it impossible...oh wait....I wonder if I simply meant the word student instead of school
fixed though... Id hate to confuse too many more people.....I mean...theyd just never figure it out.
I'm Spanking Monkey now....err...I mean I'm a Spanking Monkey now...that shoots milk Too much. I know.
AAFitz wrote:Would not a medical school be able to kick out a medical school
Eh?
Wow. that is a tough one. I wonder what word I could possibly have meant there...I mean, the context makes it impossible...oh wait....I wonder if I simply meant the word student instead of school
fixed though... Id hate to confuse too many more people.....I mean...theyd just never figure it out.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."
Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
Night Strike wrote:Actually, I'm convinced it's a choice, not an illness. And yes, a counselor could tell anyone the benefits of their religion: that's how they can make themselves relational to others. If a person doesn't like what the counselor is saying, they leave that counselor. They don't have the right to demand the counselor is fired just because they disagree with them.
Just out of idle curiosity, are you basing this on years of study of genetics and human development in the pursuit of a doctorate, or perhaps on misinterpreted passages in a glorified bunch of stapled-together pamphlets written two thousand years ago? 'Cause, you know, if it's the latter, then I entreat you to join the rest of us in the 21st century. It's fun, we have ipods.
THOTA: dingdingdingdingdingdingBOOM
Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est
Five pages in and still Night selective reading Strike has failed to tell us how he would view the cases of the Muslim, Jedi, Jehovah's Witness, Holocaust Denier.
Night Strike wrote:When a counselor comes across a situation they can't/won't discuss/treat, then they should be allowed to refer that person to another counselor. A person getting a degree does not have to conform to the beliefs of the school giving the degree because that is their personal beliefs. I'm sure there are many other areas where this woman could be an effective counselor, but because the school disagrees with her religious beliefs on homosexuality, she is kicked out. That is persecution based on religion, which is unconstitutional. There's no other way around it.
Read that bit that I posted, because it addresses this specifically better than I could.
Let me reframe this for you, though. Let's say the person she was to counsel was Muslim and she felt it was her duty to convert that Muslim to Christianity?
The problem is that you just don't want to accept that homosexuality is "normal". You are convinced it is an illness, but that is not how modern psychiatry sees it. It is a different way of life, one many Christians consider wrong. However, Christians consider many things wrong that society accepts.
Actually, I'm convinced it's a choice, not an illness.
EXACTLY why a psychologist is required to treat all.. .just like they are required to be available to people of any religious belief, etc.
Night Strike wrote:
And yes, a counselor could tell anyone the benefits of their religion: that's how they can make themselves relational to others. If a person doesn't like what the counselor is saying, they leave that counselor. They don't have the right to demand the counselor is fired just because they disagree with them.
Teaching your religion is called proselitisation, not counseling. It is OK to talk about your religion if someone comes to you for that purpose, definitely if they come to a clergy person in a religious institution.
It is NOT appropriate for a psychiatrist or psychologist.
Let me put it to you this way... You take your child to a psychiatrist, the only one in town. That psychiatrist happens to be Muslim. So it would be perfectly OK for that person to teach your child all about the wonders of Islam and how just turning toward that faith would be a real cure for your child's ills?
THAT is exactly what you are saying here, it just happens to be homosexuality, not Islam, in question.
.
Can't help but notice how NS made a completely unsupportable statement and then bailed on the thread. He must be a member in good standing of the Party of Personal Responsibility.
THOTA: dingdingdingdingdingdingBOOM
Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est
Incandenza wrote:Can't help but notice how NS made a completely unsupportable statement and then bailed on the thread. He must be a member in good standing of the Party of Personal Responsibility.
I started a new job today, so I was gone for most of it. What's unsupportable, my comments about the counseling case or my comments about homosexuality being a choice? I'm not going to waste time debating about homosexuality because I know that since most of the people on this forum are not Christians, they'll completely dismiss those views as false. As for the counseling case, I still believe it's wrong to force anyone out of a program because of their religious beliefs. She should be allowed to earn her degree and then open a private practice where she can help the people who she chooses. In regards to player's psychiatrist example, if the patient doesn't want to go to a Muslim psychiatrist, that's their right to go somewhere else. They can't be forced to go to someone whose beliefs they disagree with just like the counselor can't be forced to accept a patient who has radically different religious/lifestyle beliefs.
Incandenza wrote:Can't help but notice how NS made a completely unsupportable statement and then bailed on the thread. He must be a member in good standing of the Party of Personal Responsibility.
I started a new job today, so I was gone for most of it. What's unsupportable, my comments about the counseling case or my comments about homosexuality being a choice? I'm not going to waste time debating about homosexuality because I know that since most of the people on this forum are not Christians, they'll completely dismiss those views as false. As for the counseling case, I still believe it's wrong to force anyone out of a program because of their religious beliefs. She should be allowed to earn her degree and then open a private practice where she can help the people who she chooses. In regards to player's psychiatrist example, if the patient doesn't want to go to a Muslim psychiatrist, that's their right to go somewhere else. They can't be forced to go to someone whose beliefs they disagree with just like the counselor can't be forced to accept a patient who has radically different religious/lifestyle beliefs.
I see, so you would require that psycologists list their religion, political beliefs, etc on their plackards? Because how else would you know?
Incandenza wrote:Can't help but notice how NS made a completely unsupportable statement and then bailed on the thread. He must be a member in good standing of the Party of Personal Responsibility.
I started a new job today, so I was gone for most of it. What's unsupportable, my comments about the counseling case or my comments about homosexuality being a choice? I'm not going to waste time debating about homosexuality because I know that since most of the people on this forum are not Christians, they'll completely dismiss those views as false.
My mother is about as strong of a Christian as you appear to be, but she thinks that perspective has been shown to be a bunch of hooey.
Night Strike wrote:As for the counseling case, I still believe it's wrong to force anyone out of a program because of their religious beliefs.
It isn't her BELIEFS that are the problem, Night Strike. It is her ACTIONS which are the problem. She refuses to take part in a part of the program that is REQUIRED for the degree. Frankly, the university is NOT expelling her...SHE IS EXPELLING HERSELF.
Night Strike wrote:She should be allowed to earn her degree and then open a private practice where she can help the people who she chooses.
If that is what she wants, then she should find a private university that will allow her to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a religious-based university with such a program.
Night Strike wrote:In regards to player's psychiatrist example, if the patient doesn't want to go to a Muslim psychiatrist, that's their right to go somewhere else. They can't be forced to go to someone whose beliefs they disagree with just like the counselor can't be forced to accept a patient who has radically different religious/lifestyle beliefs.
If the psychiatrist/psychologist is worth a rat's ass, it would make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE if they held radically different beliefs.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
PLAYER57832 wrote:I see, so you would require that psycologists list their religion, political beliefs, etc on their plackards? Because how else would you know?
No, those wouldn't be required. If during the course of counseling you find out something about the person (from either side) that is irreconcilable, then you have the freedom to end the session. That's how businesses work.
Night Strike wrote:When a counselor comes across a situation they can't/won't discuss/treat, then they should be allowed to refer that person to another counselor. A person getting a degree does not have to conform to the beliefs of the school giving the degree because that is their personal beliefs. I'm sure there are many other areas where this woman could be an effective counselor, but because the school disagrees with her religious beliefs on homosexuality, she is kicked out. That is persecution based on religion, which is unconstitutional. There's no other way around it.
Well, that's great, once you're a counselor you can choose to tell your patients whatever you please, however repugnant it might be (I assume, I don't know much about the field, but I could see certain actions resulting in your license being revoked). She isn't a counselor, though, she is a counselor in training. A university should not be required to tailor their courses to any and all religious objections. The program that she was taking and the American Counseling Association's code of ethics both require her to deal with homosexuals regardless of personal feelings. If she is incapable of putting her religious beliefs aside, then she is in the wrong field. Jehovah's Witnesses oppose blood transfusions, so a Jehovah's Witness will not become a doctor through any reputable university. This is not a violation of religious freedom, it is common sense.
Actually, just to get a better feel of your objection, would you feel the same way if the objection was not religious, and homosexuals just grossed her out?
PLAYER57832 wrote:I see, so you would require that psycologists list their religion, political beliefs, etc on their plackards? Because how else would you know?
No, those wouldn't be required. If during the course of counseling you find out something about the person (from either side) that is irreconcilable, then you have the freedom to end the session. That's how businesses work.
Were you going to respond to my points, Night Strike (other than the one about hooey...that's just my mom's opinion)?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
He's too thickheaded to even be able to attempt to.
This is his modus operandi you see, he reads FOX, flies into a knee-jerking rage, starts a copy/pasta thread about it, has his original position picked to bits, repeats his original position a few dozen times without adapting, then runs away when people point out that they've already pointed out that his statements are clearly flawed and inaccurate.
It's what he's doing now. It's what he's been doing since about page 2. He is mentally incapable of doing anything else.
He doesn't physically have the ability to sensibly answer you points, because all he can do is regurgitate things that FOX tells him. Unless they run a feature on 'why we disagree with Woodruff', then he'll be completely impotent to deal with you and will be restricted solely to re-posting his original idiotic thought with the syntax changed slightly.
He is, to sum it all up, an incredibly weak debater who is immensely out of his depth.
PLAYER57832 wrote:I see, so you would require that psycologists list their religion, political beliefs, etc on their plackards? Because how else would you know?
No, those wouldn't be required. If during the course of counseling you find out something about the person (from either side) that is irreconcilable, then you have the freedom to end the session. That's how businesses work.
Obviously, you did not go to the link I provided, because the article explains, quite clearly, why this is not "just another business".
Second, as both I and Woodruff, etc have pointed out, she can/could go to a private religious institution and get a certification there. Then she can put out a sign as a Christian counselor and there will be no confusion as to what she represents.
She did not do that. She chose to enroll in a program that trains people to deal with everyone and then decided she should be allowed to make an exception because she just did not agree with the American Psychiatric association's assessment of homosexuality.
Like we said, this is like a Young Earth Creationist enrolling in a Geology program and claiming that they have to give a degree even though they refuse to accept what that Geology program teaches, answer all the tests with "God did it"/ geysers are remnants of Noah's flood, etc.
