Conquer Club

natty_dread wrote:I wrote about this once, how free will and omniscience can't coexist.
If an omniscient being exist, then that omniscient being knows everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen to everything. In order for any being to know that, there must be a pre-determined future, and poof, there goes free will.

Ok..we are not the ones who are omniscient by the way..God is..and free will is given to us..not to Him..There can be multiple pre-determined futures or predestination s just like there can be multiple solutions to a problem..So don't try to complicate stuff & justify ur imaginary false theories..

macbone wrote:krchada, you know that two of the books mentioned by nishiyoshi on the first page are Christian classics, right? I'll leave it up to you to figure out which ones are which, but I highly recommend reading all three. =) (Your friendly neighborhood library or big chain book retailer probably has 'em all.)

Thanks for the advise but whether I read or not read those books shouldn't alter my intent on this discussion here..Oh by the way, I did read one of CS Lewis books before & I do respect that man..no offense on camp fire deal since that was just a sarcastic remark..lol..

Wow! What a lot of crazy.

Who's the new guy? I like him.

krchada wrote:

Aradhus wrote:

krchada wrote:

Aradhus wrote:Does Yahweh really love fucking small children?? Word on the street is "yah, way!"

God loves his children, yeah!

Its getting real nasty & ugly in here but u know what, u r still ok & alive after saying what u said because of the grace of God. So one day if u do repent for ur sins, u will be filled with tears for what u said. If not, death comes to u anyways..God's laughing back at u since all u can do is that & ur reward has been served while u r alive..U have no power & no strength over God, nor will u ever if God forbid u do end up in Hell for eternity.

Oh baby, you keep talking dirty like that, k?

I didn't know u were a homosexual pervert on top of all that. Go find ur self someone else u fagot..

Hey, look right there....bigotry from a supposed emissary of Christ. Did you seriously just call someone a faggot on these forums? Wow, way to make yourself look credible guy. Also, you spelled it wrong.

krchada wrote:

tkr4lf wrote:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......a bunch of religious fanatics spreading their bullshit on an online forum....wow. Go f*ck yourselves...nobody wants to read this shit.

And by the way, your statements that "God is laughing back at you" and that "The only reason you are alive after saying such a thing is through God's grace..." are complete and total bull shit. Take your holier-than-thou attitude and shove it up your ass. Bunch of retards believing in fairy tales.

And so says the anti-religious or dirty language fanatic. I never once said I was holy, don't read into it, all I said was God is holy & none of us have a right to call Him names..and yes He would be laughing back since u cant touch Him even with all ur name calling..plus ur mortal self is still breathing, aren't u? So, of course He is showing grace towards u..Get it now..And ur attitude along with ur profile pic stinks..

I'm not a fanatic. I'm actually a pretty tolerant agnostic/atheist. I don't go around spreading my beliefs unless someone like you starts in with their beliefs. Also, I never said you said you were holy, and I didn't call you holy. I said you have a holier-than-thou attitude. What this means is, the way you talk, the way you come across to other people, your attitude seems like you think yourself above all of us "godless folk" because of your beliefs. It's a phrase. Don't take everything so literally. But then again, if you didn't take everything so literally, I guess we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we?

Also, I'm thrilled that you don't like my profile pic. And I'm also stoked about the fact that you think my attitude stinks. Cuz, you know, I think you're dumb as hell for believing in fairy tales and magic. Let me guess, you still believe in the tooth fairy? Or the Easter Bunny? Or perhaps even Santa Claus? Grow the f*ck up and get over yourself.

Haha this guy is hilarious.

krchada wrote:Is it logical to know that..LOL..Child like faith is needed even to believe in a completely bogus theory of Evolution..lol..

Lol, but not for the reasons you think, but for this statement.

krchada wrote:I have come to terms with my mortality & finiteness..that's precisely why I started believing in the immortal God & creator of this entire Universe..

Well you missed a key point somewhere. Here's a hint: there is no "soul". There's no magical essence of yourself that lives on after your death. Everything that defines "you" is in your brain, which will rot along with the rest of corpse.

Sorry that I ruined the ending for you.

-TG

krchada wrote:

Aradhus wrote:

krchada wrote:

Aradhus wrote:Does Yahweh really love fucking small children?? Word on the street is "yah, way!"

God loves his children, yeah!

Its getting real nasty & ugly in here but u know what, u r still ok & alive after saying what u said because of the grace of God. So one day if u do repent for ur sins, u will be filled with tears for what u said. If not, death comes to u anyways..God's laughing back at u since all u can do is that & ur reward has been served while u r alive..U have no power & no strength over God, nor will u ever if God forbid u do end up in Hell for eternity.

Oh baby, you keep talking dirty like that, k?

I didn't know u were a homosexual pervert on top of all that. Go find ur self someone else u fagot..

"That's Pervect!"

Also how can I find someone else, God sent you to me. He allowed me to know, through his grace. It is his divine plan, I dare not go against his almighty holyness and infinite wisdom. Its so obvious, like earwax.

Or you can embrace your contempt and hatred for every human being who isn't exactly like you, who doesn't act exactly the way you do. God did give you free will.

I really hope this relationship works out. You seem like a keeper. Call me!

krchada wrote:they have different perceptions from four different people

Oh, sorry, I didn't know Bible was work of man. I thought it was God's word. If it is not God's word but a work of man, then of course there are 4 different perceptions. I thought it was the word of God, and if it was a word of God then it would be awfully strange that God had 4 different views on same events

krchada wrote:never does it sound contradictory unless of course u want it to sound so..

Except, ofcourse in this example:
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. (MAT 1:16 )

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. (LUK 3:23)

krchada wrote:

natty_dread wrote:I wrote about this once, how free will and omniscience can't coexist.
If an omniscient being exist, then that omniscient being knows everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen to everything. In order for any being to know that, there must be a pre-determined future, and poof, there goes free will.

Ok..we are not the ones who are omniscient by the way..God is..and free will is given to us..not to Him..There can be multiple pre-determined futures or predestination s just like there can be multiple solutions to a problem..So don't try to complicate stuff & justify ur imaginary false theories..

Wrong answer. The correct answer is that God transcends time. We see and experience time linearly, God sees the whole of time.

Army of GOD wrote:

krchada wrote:

natty_dread wrote:I wrote about this once, how free will and omniscience can't coexist.
If an omniscient being exist, then that omniscient being knows everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen to everything. In order for any being to know that, there must be a pre-determined future, and poof, there goes free will.

Ok..we are not the ones who are omniscient by the way..God is..and free will is given to us..not to Him..There can be multiple pre-determined futures or predestination s just like there can be multiple solutions to a problem..So don't try to complicate stuff & justify ur imaginary false theories..

Wrong answer. The correct answer is that God transcends time. We see and experience time linearly, God sees the whole of time.

How does that even work.

natty_dread wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:

krchada wrote:

natty_dread wrote:I wrote about this once, how free will and omniscience can't coexist.
If an omniscient being exist, then that omniscient being knows everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen to everything. In order for any being to know that, there must be a pre-determined future, and poof, there goes free will.

Ok..we are not the ones who are omniscient by the way..God is..and free will is given to us..not to Him..There can be multiple pre-determined futures or predestination s just like there can be multiple solutions to a problem..So don't try to complicate stuff & justify ur imaginary false theories..

Wrong answer. The correct answer is that God transcends time. We see and experience time linearly, God sees the whole of time.

How does that even work.

Your existence is experienced in this moment.. no this one, no this one. no this one, no this one.

His existence is abstractly fucking a clock.

Captain Picard weighs in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RviMdf7g ... r_embedded

Army of GOD wrote:

krchada wrote:

natty_dread wrote:I wrote about this once, how free will and omniscience can't coexist.
If an omniscient being exist, then that omniscient being knows everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen to everything. In order for any being to know that, there must be a pre-determined future, and poof, there goes free will.

Ok..we are not the ones who are omniscient by the way..God is..and free will is given to us..not to Him..There can be multiple pre-determined futures or predestination s just like there can be multiple solutions to a problem..So don't try to complicate stuff & justify ur imaginary false theories..

Wrong answer. The correct answer is that God transcends time. We see and experience time linearly, God sees the whole of time.

If he can see the whole of time then the whole of time is pre-determined and free will is an illusion. It really is that simple.

In particular if he knew that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and he created them that way anyway it is exactly the same as me knowing that a particular algorithm causes a bug, implementing the algorithm anyway, and then smashing the computer cause "it made the wrong choice".

natty_dread wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:

krchada wrote:

natty_dread wrote:I wrote about this once, how free will and omniscience can't coexist.
If an omniscient being exist, then that omniscient being knows everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen to everything. In order for any being to know that, there must be a pre-determined future, and poof, there goes free will.

Ok..we are not the ones who are omniscient by the way..God is..and free will is given to us..not to Him..There can be multiple pre-determined futures or predestination s just like there can be multiple solutions to a problem..So don't try to complicate stuff & justify ur imaginary false theories..

Wrong answer. The correct answer is that God transcends time. We see and experience time linearly, God sees the whole of time.

How does that even work.

Humans cannot comprehend the concept of God in this sense. He is beyond our time, beyond our logic, our science, our math, our everything. This is how Christians covered their ass, and they did it well. You can't "disprove" God.

Either you chose to believe in Him or you don't. I don't.

Haggis_McMutton wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:

krchada wrote:

natty_dread wrote:I wrote about this once, how free will and omniscience can't coexist.
If an omniscient being exist, then that omniscient being knows everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen to everything. In order for any being to know that, there must be a pre-determined future, and poof, there goes free will.

Ok..we are not the ones who are omniscient by the way..God is..and free will is given to us..not to Him..There can be multiple pre-determined futures or predestination s just like there can be multiple solutions to a problem..So don't try to complicate stuff & justify ur imaginary false theories..

Wrong answer. The correct answer is that God transcends time. We see and experience time linearly, God sees the whole of time.

If he can see the whole of time then the whole of time is pre-determined and free will is an illusion. It really is that simple.

In particular if he knew that Adam and Eve would eat the apple and he created them that way anyway it is exactly the same as me knowing that a particular algorithm causes a bug, implementing the algorithm anyway, and then smashing the computer cause "it made the wrong choice".

Again, we can't comprehend the idea of God from the Christian point of view. He transcends our knowledge and ability to understand.

Juan,

Do you claim that Matthew and Mark were originally in Aramaic?

Moses died well before Ezra maybe. Does it or the Tanakh as a whole apparently mean to suggest Yah commanded Israelites to take Midianites for sexual intercourse?

Who claims that Yahushua was not born in Bethlehem?

Jephthah made a vow and felt the vow was more important that his daughter maybe. What was actually commanded by Yah Himself either way?

Haggis,

Does Yah actually know everything and if He does, has He always? What if He created an environment and conscious beings to inhabit it and then let dominos fall in a sense?

Lionz wrote: Haggis,

Does Yah actually know everything and if He does, has He always? What if He created an environment and conscious beings to inhabit it and then let dominos fall in a sense?

That's very well and good. What I was saying is that omniscience and free will cannot coexist.

Could they not both exist in the present?

What if everyone was created in the past by Someone without that Someone knowing what anyone would do and yet that Someone now knows everything?

Also, if you personally were given all knowledge of everything...would that mean that all of a sudden others around you would lose free will?

I'm not sure what Yah knows or has known and I'm throwing stuff out there for conversation sake maybe. I might be able to make a decent argument against Him knowing everything.

Lionz wrote:Also, if you personally were given all knowledge of everything...would that mean that all of a sudden others around you would lose free will?

Absolutely!

If you know what they're going to do, with absolute certainty, they don't actually have a choice anymore: merely the illusion of choice.

Lionz wrote:Could they not both exist in the present?

What if everyone was created in the past by Someone without that Someone knowing what anyone would do and yet that Someone now knows everything?

Irrelevant. Like I explained in the previous thread, in order for that "someone" to "now know everything" then free will must not exist "now".

Also, if you personally were given all knowledge of everything...would that mean that all of a sudden others around you would lose free will?

Yes.

To be totally, absolutely omniscient, you need to be able to predict the movement of every single particle in the universe, right to the end. In order for this to be, the future must be pre-determined: if everyone has free will to change the future, then there can be no one who can know what that future is, because anyone can decide to change it. And if the future is pre-determined, then free will doesn't exist.

It's simply either or: free will or omniscience. You can't have both.

Again, the point that they made in the Bible (granted, I read the abridged version) is that human knowledge and logic CANNOT COMPREHEND THE BEING THAT IS GOD.

Saying "herp derp it's a contradiction because he can't know everything if free will exists" does not work because that's a statement of logic which does not apply to God.

I just finished loving myself! UMPH!!1

Hey everyone,

I am back but not with the same attitude I had in some of my previous posts. Hope you all didn't miss me too much. I had stuff to do. As for replies to each individual post, I am sorry to say its almost impossible for me to do that with the time I have to spare. I do want to ask you all for your forgiveness if I was insensitive or rude towards any of your opinions or views in the past.

I figured out from this experience of mine that we are in two different worlds. I was once in the same path you guys were in just like some of you guys were in the path I am in now. So its kinda expected that we reacted to each other in a manner of shock & resentment. Whether I agree with them or not, I do appreciate some of your comments & insights, especially towards me. However my current path teaches me to love my neighbor unconditionally. I did not practice that in this forum which I repent & regret for. They say 1st impression is the best impression, however I failed to keep that with you guys. So my humble request for you guys is to please look past those posts off mine & start looking at my posts from a fresh perspective. I promise to be kind, gentle & loving, yet honest in my posts from here on.

From my experience & rewards in my current path or life, I believe & know for sure my God, Yahweh our Salvation (Yeshuah) loves me a lot. He has never let me down & there was not one unanswered prayer. Also, He is closer than a friend to me always, especially in times of need, trouble, anxiety, pain, etc. I find peace in Him & always enjoy His presence around me. There is a constant interaction with Him, within my heart (mind) all the time anytime, not just in Church or a place of worship. He transformed me from a heavy social drinker to a non-alcoholic drinker, a frequent curse word user to a rare temper loser, a habitual liar to a truthful saint, etc..overnight, right on the day when I accepted Him, repented for my sins & received His Holy Spirit. How can I help but believe & trust in such a wonderful God!

I am sorry that most of you all didn't either have such an experience or encounter with God at all or were disappointed half way through living for Him due to some reason or another. I can't help in changing that in anyway, either by words or by arguments, especially heated ones. But what I can do is pray for each & everyone of you in this forum, not to influence you all in anyways but just to show my care. Again, I really am sorry for my hurtful remarks & comments towards some of you. Hope you all will find it in your heart to forgive me & be friendly towards me. May God bless each & everyone of you in whatever path you take in life.

Yours truly,

K-Ready For-Christ

john9blue wrote:You people are all the same.

An the simple answer is no, there is no god.

krchada wrote:Hey everyone,

I am back but not with the same attitude I had in some of my previous posts. Hope you all didn't miss me too much. I had stuff to do. As for replies to each individual post, I am sorry to say its almost impossible for me to do that with the time I have to spare. I do want to ask you all for your forgiveness if I was insensitive or rude towards any of your opinions or views in the past.

I figured out from this experience of mine that we are in two different worlds. I was once in the same path you guys were in just like some of you guys were in the path I am in now. So its kinda expected that we reacted to each other in a manner of shock & resentment. Whether I agree with them or not, I do appreciate some of your comments & insights, especially towards me. However my current path teaches me to love my neighbor unconditionally. I did not practice that in this forum which I repent & regret for. They say 1st impression is the best impression, however I failed to keep that with you guys. So my humble request for you guys is to please look past those posts off mine & start looking at my posts from a fresh perspective. I promise to be kind, gentle & loving, yet honest in my posts from here on.

From my experience & rewards in my current path or life, I believe & know for sure my God, Yahweh our Salvation (Yeshuah) loves me a lot. He has never let me down & there was not one unanswered prayer. Also, He is closer than a friend to me always, especially in times of need, trouble, anxiety, pain, etc. I find peace in Him & always enjoy His presence around me. There is a constant interaction with Him, within my heart (mind) all the time anytime, not just in Church or a place of worship. He transformed me from a heavy social drinker to a non-alcoholic drinker, a frequent curse word user to a rare temper loser, a habitual liar to a truthful saint, etc..overnight, right on the day when I accepted Him, repented for my sins & received His Holy Spirit. How can I help but believe & trust in such a wonderful God!

I am sorry that most of you all didn't either have such an experience or encounter with God at all or were disappointed half way through living for Him due to some reason or another. I can't help in changing that in anyway, either by words or by arguments, especially heated ones. But what I can do is pray for each & everyone of you in this forum, not to influence you all in anyways but just to show my care. Again, I really am sorry for my hurtful remarks & comments towards some of you. Hope you all will find it in your heart to forgive me & be friendly towards me. May God bless each & everyone of you in whatever path you take in life.

Yours truly,

K-Ready For-Christ

I hope you are honest about this. Faith is a great thing, but when unchallenged by doubt it can turn you into a fanatic. Also, one of the easiest ways to piss someone off when you disagree with them is to tell them that you'll pray for them. Prayer should be between yourself and God. Advertising your prayers is pretty unpleasant socially, and not really all that Christian either: Matthew 6:5-6. As always, I'm up for debate on the interpretation of verses.