Active Clan ELO ranking 2011-[update 31 dec 2011]

[Qwert]

well white moose, from these words you dont explane,why not work.

[White Moose]

well white moose, from these words you dont explane,why not work.

Inaccurate results, kinda obvious?

[Qwert]

inaccurate results? can you explane more? do you want to say that some results are fake?
if some results are inaccurate then please tell me where you find that.

[Leehar]

inaccurate results? can you explane more? do you want to say that some results are fake?
if some results are inaccurate then please tell me where you find that.

Perhaps he meant inaccurate output in respect of the rankings you're releasing?

[Gold Knight]

inaccurate results? can you explane more? do you want to say that some results are fake?
if some results are inaccurate then please tell me where you find that.

Perhaps he meant inaccurate output in respect of the rankings you're releasing?

As much as everyone loves Bogan's mullet, im sure even he would agree BOTFM arent quite #1 status...

[Qwert]

well its only begining of 2011, its will be to much inacurate if i put THOTA to be no1 ,when they dont have any chalenge finished. Clan need to play games to be ranked,right?

[Qwert]

T4C vs OSA 23-18
crusader win 48 rp and osa lost 48 rp

[Qwert]

3 new chalenge added and update ranking table

so far 56 finished clan chalenges,in all kind of competiiton, are included in ranking

[GallantPellham]

inaccurate results? can you explane more? do you want to say that some results are fake?
if some results are inaccurate then please tell me where you find that.

Perhaps he meant inaccurate output in respect of the rankings you're releasing?

As much as everyone loves Bogan's mullet, im sure even he would agree BOTFM arent quite #1 status...

We're just misunderstood humble sailors, trying to make mama proud.
We're not conquerors, we' re liberators.

[Qwert]

well results say,who its present no1 in 2011 year, ofcourse these is only a begining,and every new finished clan chalenge,bring changes in rank positions. Actualy BOFM will stay for long in no1,because these clan will have another win,now against MM.

nc:RA vs SOH 20-22-added to board

[Qwert]

new rank update, now its THEP in first place.
AKA drop belove 900 points due of 3 consecutive defeat,who cause loses of points.

Also i need some informacion abouth SOW, who its look not exist anymore,can someone help me with that.

[jpcloet]

SOW went social, a bunch of them started a new clan IF

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/member ... p&g=193136

[Qwert]

thanks for informacion,i will remove hem from list.

[Eyestone]

This is great. A clan I've never heard of is now on top of this list. Who the h#ll is THEP? I thought I was pretty well oriented in the clan world...

[L M S]

This is great. A clan I've never heard of is now on top of this list. Who the h#ll is THEP? I thought I was pretty well oriented in the clan world...

[benga]

This is great. A clan I've never heard of is now on top of this list. Who the h#ll is THEP? I thought I was pretty well oriented in the clan world...

Got it now

The Pack!

[Leehar]

This is great. A clan I've never heard of is now on top of this list. Who the h#ll is THEP? I thought I was pretty well oriented in the clan world...

Lol, it's ThePack I think. The only other confusing abbreviation is TPR which may be http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/member ... p&g=193112

I think Qwert you should try using the official abbreviations from the official list of clans that jpc has here

[Great-Ollie]

OMG i don't think so, i mean we are first in these rankings? I think qwert has to take into account who we have been playing for our win ratio to be so high. Mind you we are beating BSS 28 to 12 after two rounds and they are ranked top 20 i think.

[FarangDemon]

Qwert, you've been asking for people to state what's wrong with this system. Here it is:

Two clans that peform the same against the same clans will have different ranks depending on the average scores of their members.

(The clan with lower average member scores will be ranked higher than an equally performing clan with higher average member scores)

In my opinion, if two clans perform exactly the same, they should have the same rank. I think that is an essential trait in a fair clan ranking system.

Do you understand this concern?

Let me reiterate, I think it's good that you are using a formula to objectively determine rankings (anything else is worthless in my opinion - no disrespect for the hard work that has been undertaken with popular opinion clan ranking systems, but we do live in the age of information and it is my opinion that we should therefore make the most of all our data (i.e. use actual results of clan wars) in the most objective manner possible (i.e. an actual formula). So I like your approach but I think you should adjust your formula to address the concern stated in the top of my post.

[Qwert]

i will check abrewation lehhar, i want to try to adjust to be max 4 letter.
-----------------------------------
farang demon,can you give me some examples, to understand better what you talk?
From these period, when high ranked play against low ranked,you can almost precisely determine who are going to win, and for now its very few time low ranked clan win against high ranked clan.
For me these is most objective ranking, and i know that look strange to some player that The Pack its in first place,but these is quite normal,where you have every few week update of results, and how now results will come ,then in next update some other clan will be in first position, its all depend on how game progress. If pack continue to wining a games,he will stay in first place, i dont see nothing bad here- if he start losing a games,he will drop down, again quite normal thing. Its only 4 month in 2011, who knows how will end.

[FarangDemon]

Your formula to determine ranking points = Loser / Winner * Games

It is based on the average scores of the members of that clan.

Consider two clans. Clan A has average score of 1500. Clan B has average score of 3000.

Let's say these clans play the same 8 other clans and both Clan A and B have the exact same win/loss record against these clans. For each win against the same opponent, Clan A gets double the points that Clan B would. For each loss against the same opponent, Clan B loses double the points Clan A would. This will lead to Clan A being ranked much higher than Clan B for the exact same clan performance, just because their members have lower average scores.

Example proving the above statement with numbers:

The first clan they both beat has average score of 2000 and they played a 40 game challenge.

Clan A gains ranking points = 2000 / 1500 * 40 = 53.3 points
Clan B gains ranking points = 2000 / 3000 * 40 = 26.7 points

The second clan they both lose to has average score of 2500 and they played a 40 games challenge.

Clan A loses ranking points = 1500 / 2500 * 40 = 24 points
Clan B loses ranking points = 3000 / 2500 * 40 = 48 points

So Clan A and Clan B have the exact same performance (same win/loss record against the exact same clans), but Clan A would have 1029.7 (1000 + 53.3 - 24) ranking points where Clan B would have 978.7 (1000 + 26.7 - 48) ranking points.

Any ranking system should give clans the same rank if they perform exactly the same.

[jpcloet]

Let's say these clans play the same 8 other clans and both Clan A and B have the exact same win/loss record against these clans.

That would mean that one of them is under-performing based in ELO, however, the skill of a clan is not really embodied by the average points of the members. That is a false assumption IMO. If you want to tweak this qwert, I would suggest taking a sample of clan wars over the past year and actually look at their averages and see if there is a correlation or not. I would bet yes to some degree, however, it may not have the R value statistically you think.

[Qwert]

farang, these is possibile in theory,but in reality its quite opposite. So far its finished 61 chalenge(clan league+ regular chalenges+newcomerscup+CCup), and its not hepend any kind of these upset,where clan with 1500 defeat clan with 3000-heck even clan with 1500 not manage to defeat clan with 2000 points. Now when i look results,i can not say that any big upset,still not hepend, and that ods (who its in theory possibile),here can hepend maybe once in 100 chalenges. Still clan average score, have impact in prediction what clan will win a chalenge..
Performing same- again its in theory, Chances that 1500 point clan have same succes like 2000,or 2500 point rank, its hard to hepend.

The second clan they both lose to has average score of 2500 and they played a 40 games challenge.

Clan A loses ranking points = 1500 / 2500 * 40 = 24 points
Clan B loses ranking points = 3000 / 2500 * 40 = 48 points

So Clan A and Clan B have the exact same performance (same win/loss record against the exact same clans), but Clan A would have 1029.7 (1000 + 53.3 - 24) ranking points where

lets try to give some names in:(unfortunatly,we dont have clans who have 3000 average score)

AOC and TSM have 2552 and 2595 points.
NOw same performace against exactly same opponents?
Lets see,if AOC play against 1RFG, and TSM play against KORT- AOC win, and TSM win, its very possibile to hepend.
NOw rematch-well in theory 1RFG to win against AOC, have very little chances,but ok,lets pretend that these hepend, also KORT win against TSM.
AOC win -24 pt--1RFG win 68 pts---AOC gain -36 pts
TSM win -43 pt--KORT win 37 pts---TSM gain +6 pts
----------------------------------------------------------------
These is only a theory, and im ready to abandon these project if something like these hepend:
Welsh Dragons win against KORT
OHIO win against THOTA
O66 win against AFOS
1RFG win against AOC
LOTZ win against LOW
----------------------------------Now if someone can predict that these possible to hepend,then im ready to quit these ranking,because these will prove that mine ranking its not good.
Just look these like football bets- YOu have Real MAdrid,play against some team from 3rd league- ofcourse that you will put money on real madrid,even when you know that you will get little money, beting on 3rd league team ,will bring you alot money, but what its chance to get these money?

[FarangDemon]

I agree with you that it is not likely that clans with average scores of 1500 and 3000 points will perform the same against the same opponents. In reality, the point gap for equally performing clans will be narrower. But the fact remains, the clans that will move to the top of your ranking will be clans with lower average scores that perform as well as their higher-average-scoring peers.

What you're measuring is interesting, though not pure performance, you are measuring more of a clan performance / average score quotient. You could add that to the name to make it more clear. I think then less people would challenge your formula on the grounds that score should not be used to determine performance rankings.

[Qwert]

well,dont be suprissed,if you get similar results in your clan algoritm ranking, if you only take results from 2011.