CC Clan League 5 - Question going here

[firstholliday]

uhu uhu...

(nodding his head in a way that everyone thinks he is actually listening)

[Qwert]

Thanks for opinions, its look that we open many ideas, so i think that we can start step by step.
First , number of LEague lvl and number of clans per League.
One question to freak

OK, let me state my mind about this...
first of all, i stand behind what ive said, we have way too many clan competitions... but this format, i actually like and support. classic league, no playoffs. with a bit different rules then qwert have...

- i agree with CoF about two weeks period and "home"/"away" games. in this case, id like to have 12 teams league, which would bring us to 22 rounds, 2 weeks each, 44 weeks overall. just about enough time for 2 weeks vacation during christmas and 6 free weeks for summer holidays. fits perfectly. this would probably lead to 3 division 2 leagues.... at the end of year, last six teams from division one would be demoted, and first two teams from every division two league would be promoted... and medal will be awarded only to a division one winner, reward for division two winners would be advancing to premier league
- if we go with this, then id suggest 12 games per week. 5 quads, 4 triples, 3 doubles. having 12 games every two weeks shouldnt be too much for anyone, if we have organized clan scene, so we know for what we are playing...
- if we go by home/away games, then id suggest that at beginning of every season, every clan will present their home maps, those maps will be played as their home maps for whole season. this way, everything would be set infornt, maps would be prepared as the ones home team likes and not the ones visitors are bad at... and that wouldnt kill off all the advantage of home field as at then end, well, theyd have advantage of playing that same map more times then visitors... just as it should be, slight but not decisive advantage.
- ofc if this comes alive, i think it should run instead of clan league... as i said, dont want too many clan competitions. and league format would keep all the clans busy, as you wouldnt go out once you lose a challenge. this kind of league plus CC should be more then enough... with that said, qwert should stand as no1 organizer, but he should have help from someone who is more... well, better spoken we all love qwertish, but sometimes its hardly understandable

those are just some points i think qwert might consider.

Mine attempt its to present idea with League competition who will have 3 quality League lvl, now you want to decrease Leagues,and to create three lvl 2 division, but this then its not to much diferent then Previous Clan LEagues ,where you have to much little leagues. The bigest problem with this,its that same clans who will stay in Division two,will each year play with same clans, no changes, and this will be monotony. Also real league, need to have at least 15 clans, so that meaning of league competition ,realy mean that. If you have 12 clans, and where 6 will be relegated, then quality of Premier league, could be disturbed.
-----------------------------------
I need time to read and answer to everybody, but its look that we open to much for start . but every sugestion and oppinion are welcome.
Lets try to start with League lvl, and how much each lvl need to have participians.
I proposed:
-Premier LEague-15 clans
-First League-15 clans
-Second leagues- up to 16 clans-minimum 8 clans (this number fulfill requirement for medal award)
(tables with relegation and promotion its on first post).
if you look on Most famous Football LEagues-Spanish-Italian-English-German, how much they have team numbers-almost every have 20 teams, and this need to implement here, not in this huge number, but 15 are perfect , so that we create quality competition.

[IcePack]

I think 10's or 12's per level are a little more realistic. I personally like 12's.
That means premier is top 12, first is 13-24 and no matter how many back end clans sign up, they'd fill in the remiainder.

CC3 has 33?
ICL has 32
Not sure how many on CL4...but i think 24 in first two, and possibly up to 36 is a good aim for this thing next year.

IcePack

[AgentSmith88]

I like the setup (just like english soccer [or football for you European hooligans]). I totally agree with Lindax on one point though - I'm sick of the whole choosing home maps crap. I play this game for fun - not to spend hours learning overly complicated maps so I can beat a bunch of noobs who have no idea what they are doing. This is what clan competitions have come down to - trying to find maps you think you know better than your opponent. It's not necessary at all. Good teams will shine on standard maps with standard settings over a long enough period of time.

However, I have found that playing the same map over and over can get extremely boring (look up the tourney "Every single setting: Classic" and you will see what I mean). I would propose that the maps be random and the home team can pick the settings. This allows for:

1. Better teamwork. You may have a triples game where none of the 3 people in the game know the map. This would be where you look for people within the clan to help out and involves more than just the few people actually playing.

2. Allows map variation. That way nobody gets sick of playing classic 30+ times.

3. There is still some control left up to each clan. I know most prefer foggy, chained, and no spoils; but some people like it sunny and escalating instead. This gives the home team a slight advantage, but only slight (just like in actual sports competitions).

Just my 2 cents, but I know AoD has avoided pretty much every clan competition the last 18 months that involves "home" maps because we are bored with playing WWII Poland, New World, Waterloo, Newest niche map, etc.

(I realize this probably won't be a popular idea, but I had to put it out there)

[Chariot of Fire]

Agree with Smithy above. Keep it very simple for one thing - it just makes everyone's lives that much easier - and don't have clans picking the same old home maps week after week. I'm fairly sure if it was to be made 'all random' and the only advantage a home team would have is to choose the settings, e.g. Esc/NoSpoils/Flat/Nuke, Chained/Adjacent/Unlimited, Sun/Fog, then it would be just as popular. In fact it would make it just a little more exciting. Then in Lindax's own words, after a whole season we end up with a 1st placed clan who is truly the best all-rounder on all maps.

Re promotion/relegation.....adopt a system such as the English football league where top 2 and bottom 3 get automatic promotion/relegation and the places 3-6 have a play-off to clinch the 3rd promotion spot. This maintains interest in the league all the way to the last round of matches even if one clan has run away with the top spot a long time before.

Lastly (for now) do not impose a cup-tied rule on any player who switches clans. It's too long a season to be sitting on the sidelines. Just like in the real game, transfers happen.

One last idea....if there are 3 different league competitions running then it's always feasible to have just one division in each of them, e.g. qwert's becomes the Premier League, the ICL becomes The Championship, and the CLA Clan League becomes the Nationwide League. This allows 3 different TOs the opportunity to run a tourney (with medals awarded in each one) and also alleviates some of the pressure because one TO running 3 x leagues is going to be bloody tough, especially in the lower division where the clans are new and inexperienced. Promotion & relegation from each of these different league tournies can be managed easily enough. Also if the CLA administers the 3rd tier competition (the 'Nationwide' league) it helps foster clan participation and education, which is what the CLA should be all about anyway.

[benga]

This is more and more looking like my scenario for Random League 2 LOL

[Chariot of Fire]

Can someone tell me how many maps (passed & beta) we have? Thanks

[Qwert]

lets try to stay on League lvl first, you open to much discusion,and its hard to create something if you run from one side to another.

""IcePack on Fri May 18, 2012 1:07 am

I think 10's or 12's per level are a little more realistic. I personally like 12's.
That means premier is top 12, first is 13-24 and no matter how many back end clans sign up, they'd fill in the remiainder.

CC3 has 33?
ICL has 32
Not sure how many on CL4...but i think 24 in first two, and possibly up to 36 is a good aim for this thing next year.

IcePack""

10 or 12 per league, well then you dont need to create any new leagues, just play same system like CL4. When you want to create some real Leagues,you need to find option for cometition who will have some value. 10 or 12 teams its to low number for any kind of serious competition. Also its to dificulty to to create 2 or 3 Lvl 2 tiers,with same numbers of clans.
Second league are created ,where all new formed clans can get chance to play,even if they dont have finished chalenges. In all other competitions ,if you have one finished chalenge,you will not be accepted to play on CC3,CL or any other competition, but here in last LEague(second), you can start your competition, and slowly progres to higher Leagues. If you have 2-3 lvl 2 division,then you will get problem to put new formed clans.
If everybody want to have bunch of small divisions,then present CL sheme are perfect, then im in wrong road here.

"Re promotion/relegation.....adopt a system such as the English football league where top 2 and bottom 3 get automatic promotion/relegation and the places 3-6 have a play-off to clinch the 3rd promotion spot. This maintains interest in the league all the way to the last round of matches even if one clan has run away with the top spot a long time before."

Im a not fan of play-offs, if someone are so bad, he need to be relegated to lvl 2 league.
MAybe 5 teams its to high to be relegated, and this can be reduce to 3 automatic relegated, and 3 teams from lvl 2 be automatic promoted to lvl 1. Its can be discussed more abouth that.

One last idea....if there are 3 different league competitions running then it's always feasible to have just one division in each of them, e.g. qwert's becomes the Premier League, the ICL becomes The Championship, and the CLA Clan League becomes the Nationwide League. This allows 3 different TOs the opportunity to run a tourney (with medals awarded in each one) and also alleviates some of the pressure because one TO running 3 x leagues is going to be bloody tough, especially in

You know what, you just give me interesting idea
How abouth that you have Premier LEague with 14 teams, then you have First League with also 14 teams, and Newcomers Cup be qualification for First League.

Premier LEague-14 teams (bottom 3 relegation to First League)
First League-14 teams (First 3 promotion to Premier LEague)(bottom 3 relegation to Newcomers cup)
Newcomers Cup-qualification for First League ( Winner, runner up,and 3rd place qualify to First League)
----------------------------------------------------
Worth thinking?

[freakns]

let me post a quick response to qwert, on serbian, so we can understand each other better...

srpski

qwert brate, ako postavis recimo 15 timova, onda 2 nedelje izmedju CW ne dolazi u obzir, posto imamo takmicenje duze 52 nedelje... ili ces ici da se odjednom igraju i home i away set, sto mi se realno ne dopada. sta mislis npr o sistemu koji imas u NFL recimo, gde timovi dobijaju bye week tokom takmicenja? to bi mozda bilo ok resenje. recimo, uzmes 16 timova. to je 30 kola. ocigledno se ne moze ici po 2 nedelje razlike, ali mogli bi ubaciti bye week, sto bi klanovima omogucilo da imaju tu nedelju odmora kada bi prakticno mogli da rasterete broj partija. npr, prve dve nedelje igraju svi, u trecoj nedelji 8 klanova dobiju bye week, pa u cetvrtoj drugih 8... pa onda opet u krug.... gde bi drugacije napravio za poslednja 3 kola, tj tada ne bi bilo bye week...time bi npr klanovi imali 39 nedelja da odigraju 30 kola, sto je brze od jedno kolo u dve nedelje, ali opet imas neki breathing space i sve se zavrsava u godinu dana, tj imamo cak 3 meseca pauze(dva letnja i mesec dana oko novaka)... to bi moglo biti OK?

basically, i suggested we have something similar to NFL bye weeks. 16 clans, 30 rounds. round 1 and 2, all play. round 3 only 8 clans play, round 4 other 8.... 5 and 6 all, 7 only 8 play, 8 other 8... with last 3 rounds all go sin same time... this would be faster then 2 weeks for one round period, but still slower then one round every week, which would allow clans to regroup... this system would gave us 39 weeks of league, which would leave 2 summer months and one during new year free(pretty much, youll get july and august free, and have break from 15th december to 15th january)

[crazy4catnip]

I like the structure! Over time, each clan ends up playing against clans of a similar skill level.

In the spectrum of possible promotion and relegation structures, the proposed structure is on one end of the spectrum as a seasonal adjustment. The other end of the spectrum is a pure ladder (like we used for Chess Club in my school days), where promotion and relegation might occur each week. Moving clans each week seems way too often, but I'd be okay with something in the middle, such as 8 clans per group and promotion / relegation twice a season.

I believe we should have a structure that allows us to easily change the number of clans over time. This might include splitting the bottom group into two groups, and perhaps readjusting the number of clans per group throughout the entire league.

-- crazy4catnip

[chapcrap]

I do like the setup. I would agree with IcePack about lowering the number in each league to 10-13. This is to makes all leagues more even in numbers and shorten the season a little bit.

Here is the problem, can we just have one league? I don't care if it's ICL or this or something else, but let's have one clan league, and one Cup, and have it end at that.

[chapcrap]

Also, if the majority would be in favor of qwert's setup, personally, I would not have a problem using it instead of the setup that the ICL is using. I like the ICL setup and the schedule took me a while to work on. I mean, it was 1184 sets to schedule... But if more people would enjoy qwert's year to year, we could make a quick switch to that setup. The scheduling for qwert's setup can be done in about 5 minutes.

[IcePack]

I agree...there are so many leagues, I'd like to see what clans prefer. This one is easier to schedule / administer, and also easier to plan for as a clan which is entering.
One of the biggest concerns people have voiced about ICL is the schedule and so many little sets with no easy way to plan. This would alleviate a lot of those concerns.
What do the other clans think? I'd like to see a consolidation of all these leagues into something.

IcePack

[jefjef]

Ok. I read OPs post and chaps and Ice's post above me.

What I do NOT like is:

"Clan's cannot use the same map more than one time in League."

What I DO like is:

Clans may use same map twice but different team size.

[benga]

qwert is here proposing format for CL5

not another league

[Chariot of Fire]

Take the total number of official maps on CC (add a few betas that will go 'live' within 6 months), find a number that divides nicely into the total e.g 11, 12, 13, 14, then put that number of clans in the league. Each fortnight a clan creates its home games (if there are 144 maps and 12 clans, then this figure would be 12) and in the week in between it plays 12 away games. Every map on CC is to be used, and once only. This would really decide who is the best 'all round' clan on CC.

[benga]

Take the total number of official maps on CC (add a few betas that will go 'live' within 6 months), find a number that divides nicely into the total e.g 11, 12, 13, 14, then put that number of clans in the league. Each fortnight a clan creates its home games (if there are 144 maps and 12 clans, then this figure would be 12) and in the week in between it plays 12 away games. Every map on CC is to be used, and once only. This would really decide who is the best 'all round' clan on CC.

there are something like 220 maps

[angola]

I agree...there are so many leagues, I'd like to see what clans prefer. This one is easier to schedule / administer, and also easier to plan for as a clan which is entering.
One of the biggest concerns people have voiced about ICL is the schedule and so many little sets with no easy way to plan. This would alleviate a lot of those concerns.
What do the other clans think? I'd like to see a consolidation of all these leagues into something.

IcePack

What leagues exactly are you talking about?

ICL and CLA4? Am I missing another one?

I like Chuuuuck's CC tournament's and would hope they would continue on as something separate.

[MichelSableheart]

I like the idea of a promotion/degradation league system, but I have some doubts whether it's maintainable. My main concern is the stability of the clan world. With a season lasting a year, I'm affraid we may see more changes then a promotion/degradation system can handle. Clans split, fall apart, new clans are formed, clans can pick up a set of strong players...

If I remember correctly, Tofu had to start in the bottom division as a new clan in CL2, but due to it's roster everyone knew that they would trounce that division. Similar problems may happen in this structure, where new but very good clans get paired against the weakest clans around. Also, what would happen if one of the top clans in the premier division disbanded?

In footbal, a promotional/degradational system works because you can be reasonably sure that teams won't vary in strength too much from season to season.

[freakns]

I do like the setup. I would agree with IcePack about lowering the number in each league to 10-13. This is to makes all leagues more even in numbers and shorten the season a little bit.

Here is the problem, can we just have one league? I don't care if it's ICL or this or something else, but let's have one clan league, and one Cup, and have it end at that.

this x10000000000000000000000000000000

[benga]

I do like the setup. I would agree with IcePack about lowering the number in each league to 10-13. This is to makes all leagues more even in numbers and shorten the season a little bit.

Here is the problem, can we just have one league? I don't care if it's ICL or this or something else, but let's have one clan league, and one Cup, and have it end at that.

this x10000000000000000000000000000000

So why did you start ICL?

Also I really haven't seen anywhere that your or any other clan must participate in every event?

Again I am repeating, qwert's suggestion here is about improving CL!!!

[freakns]

I do like the setup. I would agree with IcePack about lowering the number in each league to 10-13. This is to makes all leagues more even in numbers and shorten the season a little bit.

Here is the problem, can we just have one league? I don't care if it's ICL or this or something else, but let's have one clan league, and one Cup, and have it end at that.

this x10000000000000000000000000000000

So why did you start ICL?

Also I really haven't seen anywhere that your or any other clan must participate in every event?

Again I am repeating, qwert's suggestion here is about improving CL!!!

why did i start what?! can i have your dealer number pls?

[Qwert]

qwert is here proposing format for CL5

not another league

I dont have nothing against ,if this become new official competition. I start from belove,and build something much more close to League competition.

by MichelSableheart » Sat May 19, 2012 11:27 am

I like the idea of a promotion/degradation league system, but I have some doubts whether it's maintainable. My main concern is the stability of the clan world. With a season lasting a year, I'm affraid we may see more changes then a promotion/degradation system can handle. Clans split, fall apart, new clans are formed, clans can pick up a set of strong players...

If I remember correctly, Tofu had to start in the bottom division as a new clan in CL2, but due to it's roster everyone knew that they would trounce that division. Similar problems may happen in this structure, where new but very good clans get paired against the weakest clans around. Also, what would happen if one of the top clans in the premier division disbanded?

In footbal, a promotional/degradational system works because you can be reasonably sure that teams won't vary in strength too much from season to season.
I like the idea of a promotion/degradation league system, but I have some doubts whether it's maintainable. My main concern is the stability of the clan world. With a season lasting a year, I'm affraid we may see more changes then a promotion/degradation system can handle. Clans split, fall apart, new clans are formed, clans can pick up a set of strong players...

If I remember correctly, Tofu had to start in the bottom division as a new clan in CL2, but due to it's roster everyone knew that they would trounce that division. Similar problems may happen in this structure, where new but very good clans get paired against the weakest clans around. Also, what would happen if one of the top clans in the premier division disbanded?

In footbal, a promotional/degradational system works because you can be reasonably sure that teams won't vary in strength too much from season to season.

----------------------------------------
Im aware of this, but we will build rules for to also.

[Qwert]

Ok. I read OPs post and chaps and Ice's post above me.

What I do NOT like is:

"Clan's cannot use the same map more than one time in League."

What I DO like is:

Clans may use same map twice but different team size.

like i say, everything are open for discussion, and this are also open for discusion. Personaly ,consider that we have 220 maps, i realy dont see any problem with this rule because you need to prepare 78 diferent maps for your home games.

[karel]

i do like qwerts idea,nice job man