Opinion on racism.

[thegreekdog]

Ah, I see the crux of the problem. I missed the "many" in front of Muslims. Since I don't know how many Muslims are violently opposed to gay marriage, I can't really answer the question. Assuming larger-than-50-percent percentage of Muslims are violently opposed to gay marriage, is it still prejudicial to label many Muslims as being violently opposed to gay marriage? I have no idea.

[2dimes]

Conversely if you used, "all" that would suddenly make it the type of suggestion you are opposed to.

I went back to read what what's-his-face wrote and it's possibly intentionally missleading, but the statement it's self is likely fact. I have not researched it and perhaps the video footage was made by actors. If not I think that more should be done to protect the gay people in that area.

[thegreekdog]

Conversely if you used, "all" that would suddenly make it the type of suggestion you are opposed to.

I went back to read what what's-his-face wrote and it's possibly intentionally missleading, but the statement it's self is likely fact. I have not researched it and perhaps the video footage was made by actors. If not I think that more should be done to protect the gay people in that area.

More should be done to protect people from violence.

No need for "committed by Muslims" after "violence."
No need for "gay" before people.

That's my stance anyway. My preferred stance is to say whatever the f*ck you want, but since I can't say whatever the f*ck I want, I'm going with political correctness.

[2dimes]

Currently you can say whatever you want. That is something what's-his-face is actively participating in. It's just better to go with being PC because it's less likely to have people exgagerate your statements.

I don't like the N word or equivalent. I would prefer it was acceptable for use like it used to be in my region because it was easier to spot racist. I do appreciate that my kids are not exposed to it much and in a couple of generations it will be the same as something from the twenties that has become rediculas and funny because there's no power. And maybe that's why some are defending other guy's decision to call out what's-his-face's statement as racist.

My point is he successfully made a statement that was not racist even if that was intentional to hide his full feelings. I think other guy is ok and suspect he knew the new member was what's-his-face prior to writing his post. That's why I didn't out him with a bunch of ranting.

[thegreekdog]

Currently you can say whatever you want. That is something what's-his-face is actively participating in. It's just better to go with being PC because it's less likely to have people exgagerate your statements.

I don't like the N word or equivalent. I would prefer it was acceptable for use like it used to be in my region because it was easier to spot racist. I do appreciate that my kids are not exposed to it much and in a couple of generations it will be the same as something from the twenties that has become rediculas and funny because there's no power. And maybe that's why some are defending other guy's decision to call out what's-his-face's statement as racist.

My point is he successfully made a statement that was not racist even if that was intentional to hide his full feelings. I think other guy is ok and suspect he knew the new member was what's-his-face prior to writing his post. That's why I didn't out him with a bunch of ranting.

There was an interesting (sort of) article in Philadelphia magazine (which presumably you don't get). It had to do with white people and racism in Philadelphia, but was really just a collection of anecdotes and stories. Basically, there are gentrified ("not black") parts of Philadelphia that bump against impoverished ("black") parts of Philadelphia and you have younger professionals (white people) have criminal run-ins with the people (black people) in their neighborhood. The article discusses how no one uses the "white" and "black" terms and how the white people go out of their way to make sure they don't seem racist (whatever that means). My brother lives in one of these gentrified areas. I would never live there. Not because black people live there, but because criminals live there.

Ultimately, the issue with the Muslims attacking gay people in England is that you don't want people attacking people, period.

In the case of Philadelphia, it shouldn't be about punishing black people or protecting against black people. It should be about punishing cirminals and protecting against criminals.

In the case of England, it shouldn't be about punishing Muslims or protecting against Muslims. It should be about punishing criminals and protecting against criminals.

[2dimes]

If you have a problem with people commiting violence and there's a pattern of it being predominately white, bass playing, pilots that like beer and sexy women.

I won't be hurt when you label us and say, predominately white, bass playing, pilots that like beer and sexy women, are violent and we need to address that problem. You're wrong I'm not typically violent and probably not a threat but I'm ok being lumped in with my group.

On the other hand if you arrest me and put my in jail or beat me. That's a bad thing. I'm not happy with that.

[thegreekdog]

If you have a problem with people commiting violence and there's a pattern of it being predominately white, bass playing, pilots that like beer and sexy women.

You didn't finish this statement. If you have a problem with [insert group] then what? Put them all in jail? Stay away from them? Ban the practice of their religion? "Address the problem" is not specific enough.

I think that's the problem with making generalizations about a group - making generalizations about a group usually leads to taking some negative action against that group.

I won't be hurt when you label us and say, predominately white, bass playing, pilots that like beer and sexy women, are violent and we need to address that problem. You're wrong I'm not typically violent and probably not a threat but I'm ok being lumped in with my group.

You'd be surprised as to who is hurt and why. Two stories from the Philadelphia magazine editorial:

At Villanova (a predominantly white school that has garnered the nickname Vanilla-nova), a white student lost her blackberry in class. She emailed the entire class asking if someone had her blackberry. A black student responded back indicating that she was offended and that the white student was being racist. The white student responded that she had emailed the entire class, not just the black student, but the white student was exceedingly upset about the situation. Nevertheless, the black student avoided the white student.

At a predominantly black middle school in Philadelphia, a black student was behaving poorly in class. The young, fresh-out-of-college white teacher spoke sternly to the black student and referred to him at one point in the lecture as "boy." The black student reported his teacher to the student's step-father who raised hell and tried to have the teacher fired, accusing the teacher of being racist. The teacher was not fired, but the student's behavior has gotten worse.

So here was have two black people being offended by alleged racists. What do we do with that? What do we do with that in the second case where it seems pretty clear that the black student knows he can get away with stuff?

There are two responses. The first is to not talk about race (which is what the author of this article is suggesting white people in Philadelphia do). This is what I do. I'm too concerned about losing a job or esteem in the community by being labelled a racist, so I try to step around all of those issues. The second response is to pull back from shouting "racism!" or "bigotry!" but I think we need buy in from those that are offended before the alleged offenders can pull back themselves.

[thegreekdog]

Related:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 17271.html

[Neoteny]

Man, I didn't have to deal with any of that in my schools.

Also related, apparently this is happening.

http://fox8.com/2013/03/04/oberlin-clas ... incidents/

[2dimes]

"Address the problem" is not specific enough.

I accept your critique of my course of action but basically not having a problem with them or being in a position to deal with my peers. I have not decided on plan.

[thegreekdog]

Man, I didn't have to deal with any of that in my schools.

Also related, apparently this is happening.

http://fox8.com/2013/03/04/oberlin-clas ... incidents/

There are so many things wrong. The title of the article is stupid. The cancelling of classes is stupid. f*ck... I hate my country sometimes.

I accept your critique of my course of action but basically not having a problem with them or being in a position to deal with my peers. I have not decided on plan.

Just do what everyone else does - avoid talking about it, but don't live in West Philadelphia. That's basically the message we now have in this country about race. Don't talk about it. Don't try to help solve problems. But do things consciously or subconsciously, under the radar, so that you can maintain your standard of safety.

[2dimes]

No, I refuse. Not talking about it is making things worse. It shouldn't be dangerous to go to an area where people with light skin live just because you have a better tan. Or going to the area where dark skin people live just because you are Finnish.

That's what I'm after here. Some people are part of some groups and are jerks. As you say let's deal with them (how ever we need to go about that) and help the rest of us get along better.

[thegreekdog]

No, I refuse. Not talking about it is making things worse. It shouldn't be dangerous to go to an area where people with light skin live just because you have a better tan. Or going to the area where dark skin people live just because you are Finnish.

That's what I'm after here. Some people are part of some groups and are jerks. As you say let's deal with them (how ever we need to go about that) and help the rest of us get along better.

Impossible. Until the people that are members of that particular group take action themselves, anything people not in that group do is going to be racist, bigoted, etc.

I can give you a perfect example - the Catholic Church. Until parishoners do something themselves, anyone criticizing can and will be labelled bigots.

Remember the Bill Cosby fiascos?

In May 2004 after receiving an award at the celebration of the 50th Anniversary commemoration of the Brown v. Board of Education ruling, the U.S. Supreme Court's decision that outlawed school racial segregation, Cosby made public remarks critical of African Americans who put higher priorities on sports, fashion, and "acting hard" than on education, self-respect, and self-improvement, pleading for African-American families to educate their children on the many different aspects of American culture.

In the "Pound Cake" speech, Cosby, who holds a doctorate in education, asked that African-American parents teach their children better morals at a younger age. Cosby told the Washington Times, "Parenting needs to come to the forefront. If you need help and you don't know how to parent, we want to be able to reach out and touch" (DeBose, Brian).[page needed] Richard Leiby of The Washington Post reported, "Bill Cosby was anything but politically correct in his remarks Monday night at a Constitution Hall bash commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision."[21]

Cosby again came under sharp criticism and was again largely unapologetic for his stance when he made similar remarks during a speech in a July 1 meeting commemorating the anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education. During that speech, he admonished apathetic blacks for not assisting or concerning themselves with the individuals who are involved with crime or have counter-productive aspirations. He further described those who needed attention as blacks who “had forgotten the sacrifices of those in the Civil Rights Movement." [22] The speech was featured in the documentary 500 Years Later, which set the speech to cartoon visuals.[citation needed]

Georgetown University sociology professor Michael Eric Dyson wrote a book in 2005 entitled Is Bill Cosby Right or Is the Black Middle Class Out of Touch?[23] In the book, Dyson wrote that Cosby was overlooking larger social factors that reinforce poverty and associated crime; factors such as deteriorating schools, stagnating wages, dramatic shifts in the economy, offshoring and downsizing, chronic underemployment, and job and capital flight.[24] Dyson suggested Cosby's comments "betray classist, elitist viewpoints rooted in generational warfare."[23]

Cornel West defended Cosby and his remarks, saying, "he's speaking out of great compassion and trying to get folk to get on the right track, 'cause we've got some brothers and sisters who are not doing the right things, just like in times in our own lives, we don't do the right thing... He is trying to speak honestly and freely and lovingly, and I think that's a very positive thing."[25]

In a 2008 interview, Cosby mentioned Atlanta, Georgia; Chicago, Illinois; Detroit, Michigan; Oakland, California; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; and Springfield, Massachusetts, among the cities where crime was high and young African-American men were being murdered and jailed in disproportionate numbers. Cosby stood his ground against criticism and affirmed that African-American parents were continuing to fail to inculcate proper standards of moral behavior.[26] Cosby still lectures to black communities (usually at churches) about his frustrations with certain problems prevalent in underprivileged urban communities, such as in illegal drugs; teenage pregnancy; Black Entertainment Television; high-school dropouts; anti-intellectualism; gangsta rap; vulgarity; thievery; offensive clothing; vanity; parental alienation; single-parenting; and failing to live up to the ideals of Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King, Jr., and African-Americans who preceded Generation X.

[2dimes]

Remember the Bill Cosby fiascos?

No but I believe you're proving my point.

People are so stupid that a person in their group calls them out on a simple fact, and everone including people outside their group cries "racist!"

Really? but Tupac is ok fine because he's telling you it's good to be gangsta.

Not to worry Doctor Huxtable, thanks to adopting similar parenting, in a couple of generations only the wealthiest of white people will be able to continue living like the current generation. Most of them will remain in the United Plantation of America.

[thegreekdog]

Remember the Bill Cosby fiascos?

No but I believe you're proving my point.

People are so stupid that a person in their group calls them out on a simple fact, and everone including people outside their group cries "racist!"

Really? but Tupac is ok fine because he's telling you it's good to be gangsta.

Not to worry Doctor Huxtable, thanks to adopting similar parenting, in a couple of generations only the wealthiest of white people will be able to continue living like the current generation. Most of them will remain in the United Plantation of America.

I'm not sure I'm proving your point or not. When a celebrated celebrity and successful individual apart from his celebrity, someone who should be a role model for blacks, is lambasted for offering constructive (constructive, mind you) criticism, what do you think would happen to you or me, two white guys who like beer and hot women, if we were to make similar comments?

[BigBallinStalin]

Remember the Bill Cosby fiascos?

No but I believe you're proving my point.

People are so stupid that a person in their group calls them out on a simple fact, and everone including people outside their group cries "racist!"

Really? but Tupac is ok fine because he's telling you it's good to be gangsta.

Not to worry Doctor Huxtable, thanks to adopting similar parenting, in a couple of generations only the wealthiest of white people will be able to continue living like the current generation. Most of them will remain in the United Plantation of America.

I still find it hard to criticize people who choose not to pull a Cosby. They're justified in choosing to avoid the costs incurred from stupid people.

[thegreekdog]

Remember the Bill Cosby fiascos?

No but I believe you're proving my point.

People are so stupid that a person in their group calls them out on a simple fact, and everone including people outside their group cries "racist!"

Really? but Tupac is ok fine because he's telling you it's good to be gangsta.

Not to worry Doctor Huxtable, thanks to adopting similar parenting, in a couple of generations only the wealthiest of white people will be able to continue living like the current generation. Most of them will remain in the United Plantation of America.

I still find it hard to criticize people who choose not to pull a Cosby. They're justified in choosing to avoid the costs incurred from stupid people.

I think 2dimes point, and one that I'm beginning to get to agreeing with, is that the costs may be greater by avoiding the costs of saying something now.

I've tried to do something else - I volunteer to help inner city black kids get into good colleges. And Mr. Cosby is right! Every kid in that class, that I've helped out with for the last three years, has one or two very involved, interested, and demanding parents. Makes a big fucking difference.

[BigBallinStalin]

I think 2dimes point, and one that I'm beginning to get to agreeing with, is that the costs may be greater by avoiding the costs of saying something now.

They might be, but how does one calculate the risk?

I've tried to do something else - I volunteer to help inner city black kids get into good colleges. And Mr. Cosby is right! Every kid in that class, that I've helped out with for the last three years, has one or two very involved, interested, and demanding parents. Makes a big fucking difference.

Tangent: There was this study on white people avoiding the mentioning of race which annoyed the black participants.

Basically, everyone was split into pairs. Both have the same set of 10 pictures of random people. Person A holds the pictures to himself and describes the person he sees, while person B tries to match up the description with his set of pictures.

The interesting part of the study involved a white-black pairing. So, Person A was white and when they had to describe a black male, they tended to avoid any mentioning of skin color. As this bumbling went on, person B would get annoyed.

So, although the white guy was trying to be polite, he actually was annoying the black guy by not at all mentioning race.

So, perhaps this supports 2dimes' position on talking about race.

[thegreekdog]

They might be, but how does one calculate the risk?

You don't have to. There was a vingette in the Philadelphia Magazine editorial discussing a comparison of two schools in North Philadelphia. One school was 98% white. The other was 98% black. A white couple and their children moved into the neighborhood and the mother of the children considered enrolling her white children in the school that was 98% black because it was closer to their home. Her neighbors tried to talk her out of it. Turns out the schools were fairly equal in terms of education, class size, etc.

The message here is the visual versus the reality, but when the reality is bad, you can substitute the reality for the visual. Do I care if my daugher dates or marries a black guy (or girl) someday? No. Do I care if my daughter dates or marries a criminal? Yes. If the criminal happens to be black, that doesn't make me racist (or does it?). Ultimately, I don't think most decisions people make are racially motivated; it just so happens that in some circumstances race is related (tangentially) to the good or bad of the decision.

[2dimes]

I'll have to pull a thegreekdog here and say. I don't care what shade your skin is. If you're a crappy parent I'll call you out on it. Doesn't allways help. Part of the problem is most likely denial.

This political correct thing drives me nuts. One of my best friends is a lot like me except he is not a pilot, sings instead of playing the bass and his skin is brown even in the winter.

I don't even know an acceptable name to describe him to white people because of the skin thing. For the most part I don't care because I don't need to talk about him in that way. Problem is black is probably the accepted term but that's not accurate so it pisses me off. I say brown but to white people I sound like a wierdo, which is ok since I suppose I am. If I say negro most white people will probably freak out. One of them might storm in and edit that out giving me a warning. I'd say African but he has lived a few blocks away from me since I met him in grade 3. "Of African decent" sounds a bit pretentious no?

I don't miss the N word and wouldn't use that but the thing is, even though it was a great theory that name calling was the root of the problem. It's not. Shaming people doesn't stop racists because they don't have the capacity to be ashamed. People with that can't be real racists because it's a shamfull thing to do.

[PLAYER57832]

You hit the nail in the first paragraph.

People who are prejudiced don't think they are. It doesn't matter if they think, quite seriously, that blacks are just not quite as intelligent (a few exceptions, exist "of course").. that Asians are just naturally bright... that women are [whatever], the thing is that the person voicing those thoughts will ALWAYS find legitimate reasons and facts to justify the thinking. Today, it is even worse becuase many people may secretly think that way or may have gone pretty far to convince themselves that they really don't think prejudicially in any way... but still, its funny.... they have no real friends of other races or cultures, tend to hire people who look like them, etc.


Today we have a further dichotomy of not being quite sure whether "my religion teaches me this" is an OK real justification.. and in what context. We generally agree that its OK for people to think that way, privately and that they cannot do direct and serious harm to others ... attacking or killing others. We get more iffy when it comes to things like hiring, teachings in school, etc.

[thegreekdog]

It doesn't matter if they think, quite seriously, that blacks are just not quite as intelligent (a few exceptions, exist "of course").. that Asians are just naturally bright... that women are [whatever], the thing is that the person voicing those thoughts will ALWAYS find legitimate reasons and facts to justify the thinking.

I don't think most people (in my generation) think those things.

[2dimes]

I'd rather people could discuss their thoughts. occasionally truth and sense will over come poor choices and flawed concepts. if they have to hide them they will for sure not be able to have healthy discussions about certain things. Theoretically hiding something will make me think it's wrong but so many things that are not wrong are shamed into hiding in the west.



Ok so you notice a large group of Chinese guys are better at math. It's not that it's bad to think it is genetic. It's just incorrect because you have overlooked how it happened.

Their parents,friends and others valued and supported them learning math. They were not born doing math.

Now if we start thinking the same thing about some group that is not as good at doing something. Then us being incorrect starts being harmful toward the group.

Another problem can be, sometimes a positive pre conception toward a group becomes a great bourdon to some individuals from the group that don't manage to fit in the mold.

[thegreekdog]

Ok so you notice a large group of Chinese guys are better at math. It's not that it's bad to think it is genetic. It's just incorrect because you have overlooked how it happened.

Their parents,friends and others valued and supported them learning math. They were not born doing math.

Yep. That's my take and understanding as well. Someone who is Asian is not good at math merely because his or her skin is a different color than mine.

[2dimes]

In high school a guy was complaining about Chinese people and one of his friends asked, "What about Byron?" Who was a friend of them both. He answered, "He's not Chinese. He's Canadian like us."

So yeah I allow Player the point. Sometimes when we get caught up in some prejudice. We don't even realize how messed up and plain wrong it might be. Even if deep down we do.