A Fun Question about Poverty

[BigBallinStalin]

The only real solution i can see is simply to have less poor people. We have a finite amount of resources in this world and those who have an excess of them are just not that likely to share.If there is x amount of resources to be divided by y amount of people and you can not increase x the only option is to decrease y.

Voluntary exchange increases the amount of resources available.

[Metsfanmax]

re: bold, initially, all countries were poor, so how did wealth take off in England and Scotland?

What is your theory?

[Fewnix]

eat the rich

you meant good jobs at good wages of course- a simple misspeak.

oh, and a side order of friars with that please.

[BigBallinStalin]

re: bold, initially, all countries were poor, so how did wealth take off in England and Scotland?

What is your theory?

It's not mine, but I find the following to be convincing:

How the Scots Invented the Modern World
North. Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance


Mainly it's about the creation of ideas and the slow evolution of institutions founded upon private property rights, freer trade, and tolerable governance which were just right in the UK--and more deficient in Continental Europe.

[AslanTheKing]

talking about poor people,
u are talking about people, not countrys ( since in poor countrys you will find many very, very rich people)
the same in very very rich countrys , you will find very poor people,

than u have to analyze why they are poor
poor is not just poor ( at the end yes)
but since u asked,
how to make poor people rich,
you have to understand there is many different people who are poor

.) somebody might have become poor after getting divorced
.) some might be poor because they are drugaddicts, or alcohol addicts
.) some could be sick
.) some could be stuck in real live alone with 5 kids
.) some would be gamblers
.) some would be out of job for a long time
.) some cant pay the interest rates anymore
.................................................................
this can go on and on
so poverty is not just poverty

and any rule ore advice of wisdom, knowledge
cant be always for one specific poor person

you have to differentiate between the poor people ( its not that easy)
otherwise
work hard, ( no matter what you work)
be very selfdisciplíned and follow a goal ( to make from little money more money ...)
religion helps ( most poor people are very godloving people)
manage your expenses
forget luxury
have a strong family
...............................
there is alot someone could do
to get out of poverty
but if u have children, to make them get a better education is a start

[mrswdk]

.) somebody might have become poor after getting divorced

Oh, brother, ain't that the truth.

On another note: given how combative discussions on this forum usually are, I will take the lack of opposition to my 'South Africa/Sweden' dualism as recognition that I made a fair and valid point. I welcome your support and look forward to more of it in the future.

[Lootifer]

Provide two simple things:

- Provide for them the opportunity, free of significant barriers, to become "not poor" or, ideally, "rich". This includes removing the protectionism so common with the modern "rich"
- Ensure that all children, regardless of the poor decision making capacity of their parents, can eat well, maintain good health and experience equivilent levels of education to children who have good decision making parents

I would also suggest trying to establish a culture where we don't subsidise intelligence and ambition (or greed if you will) so heavily, but that's in the too hard basket for now (and not something that can be centrally planned nor will it come from the free market in its current form).

-reduce barriers to trade? How?

- how? Dump more food on them?

What'chya mean with the underlined? "Subsidize greed"?

Hey I only answered what. I didnt answer how.

Im far too apathetic to bother with how.

[Lord Arioch]

The earliset countries rose to wealth by enslaving the poorer:) and by stealing stuff from folks.
Yes in theory u are correct but in prictice its something else Africa is the wealthiest continent, but one of he poorest, not all can and should be blamed on cooperations, at least as much can be blamed on the leadership in these countries, but take the oil industry in nigeria, shell is a major investor and owner but thoose that earn money are not nigerians... caus they cant work in the industry due to lack of education... but the wealth from oil goes to shell and abroad never giving fiscal income to strengthen the nigerain population.

Then to be honest we must remember that for rich people and rich nations (sweden among em) to exist there must be poor people...

[Lord Arioch]

Or we can just to it as they did in the gloriious 80ths:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-5GbB3fN5k

[Metsfanmax]

The earliset countries rose to wealth by enslaving the poorer:) and by stealing stuff from folks.

But that just shifts the question back: why did those countries develop more effective technology (e.g. guns) before others, that allowed them to be so dominant?

[Lord Arioch]

I think i agree with Max Weber there he theorizes that christianity is a very big reason to that, here in the "west" its OK to be rich to make money we encourage inventions and we are very good at capital accumulation. in countries like china they were not, africa they were not and so on. This advantage is rapidly shifting nowadays soon china and india will progress faster than us because we have become so sure of our advantage that we dont see it slipping away:)

Another intresting question is how to define poverty when are u poor...? according to my xwife (bitch) u are poor when u cant by a pizza for your kids... i tend to disagree with here (bitch) on most parts but most definitly on that poverty in the west cant really be compared to poverty in africa... not in sweden at least i dont know about the us they have a funny system.

[mrswdk]

Weber was talking specifically about Calvinism in America. The features of Calvinism that he identified as helping drive the development of American capitalism (e.g. the belief that personal success/wealth was a sign that God had 'chosen' you) are not features of Christianity in general. The teachings of Jesus and the Bible don't tend to speak too favorably about the pursuit of personal wealth and riches...

China used to have a landed elite that bore more than a passing resemblance to Europe's landed gentry, as well as a regional tributary system that basically milked all its neighbours of as much money as possible, so it can hardly be said that Imperial China was opposed to accumulation of wealth. Imperial China's critical mistake was resisting institutional change while the Great Powers were modernizing.

[Lord Arioch]

Well calvinism were more like switzerland and scotland at the beginning sorry to say that the US didnt contribute to much in the early stages of that movement ...
I was more thinking (China) in like 17-18th century a tremendously big country that got stuck on opium and were not at all intrested in accumaulating its income...

The best example of total fiscal f*ck up might be spain... they stole a load of cash from america then they bought funny/cool/nice stuff which made all that money go to flanders and great britain ... and thoose two areas knew how to invest and accumulate and grew into super powers ....

Today we act differently and think differently but the BASE for our (the wests) wealth were founded like 3-400 years ago.... ergo christianity plays a very big role! Wonder if the increasing atehism an idont belive in god feelings will spell our down fall:)?

[AslanTheKing]

its funny, your switching from poor to wealth
youre off topic
@ Lord Arioch
i cant agree with your statement above
the first "banknotes" existed already in china before christianity, ....
this idea was brought to europe with marco polo
get familiar with the history of our moneysystem ( i give u a hint - it did not start in the usa)
then get familiar with the stocksystem and after study the currency system,
and then u will be able to put one and one together

now back to the poor subject
you can save up money, invest money and be lucky and even win money in the lottery
and now the problem starts - with all that money
everybody wants a piece of your money
what to do with it, how to protect your money
if u dont know the right people, you will lose it

[mrswdk]

I was more thinking (China) in like 17-18th century a tremendously big country that got stuck on opium and were not at all intrested in accumaulating its income

Opium was the mid-19th century. What is your reasoning for saying that China 'was not interested in accumulating wealth'?

the BASE for our (the wests) wealth were founded like 3-400 years ago.... ergo christianity plays a very big role!

>Christianity
>3-4000 years ago

Just say whatever feels good and we'll work out the specifics later. It's cool.

[Lootifer]

We are totes products of our culture and environment.

[thegreekdog]

Did you guys solve poverty yet?

[Lootifer]

THERE ARE NO SOLUTIONS, JUST DEEPER QUESTIONS

[mrswdk]

Did you guys solve poverty yet?

Did you finish arguing with PS about homophobic legislation yet?

[BigBallinStalin]

Did you guys solve poverty yet?

Yeah, if they had more money, then they wouldn't be so poor.

[Lord Arioch]

Since english isnt my native language i apologize for any misunderstandings:)

The accumulating of money is based on investment in the intrest of getting more money, investing that to earn more and so on.... that economic fact didnt really got going until after the discovery of the Americas. In flandern and great britain. China as never had any intrest in this until way later, like today... thats how EU and US build up their economies to the standard of today. And keep on doing it but now the others are copying our way of doing things.

China were more intrested in gold/silver that they didnt use to invest... they made cool beutiful stuff with it, then we discovered there were more stuff they wanted insted of precious metalls: opium... and that was that for china.

Im not sure how u count time in english so i might have been 100 years off there... 18th century is that 1800 or 1700s:)?

I know that china invented the first notes... but they didnt use em to accumulate wealth! And i also know that according to history, at least here, the monetary system wwere something that the greeks came up with:) as usual...

There is no clear and easy solution to this question... even if u shoot all the poor people the problem would creep back up... cause no way humanity will ever get along on equal terms! I would be the first to salute that if it happened but i think in reality its a vision!

[Ray Rider]

re: bold, initially, all countries were poor, so how did wealth take off in England and Scotland?

What is your theory?

It's not mine, but I find the following to be convincing:

How the Scots Invented the Modern World
North. Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance


Mainly it's about the creation of ideas and the slow evolution of institutions founded upon private property rights, freer trade, and tolerable governance which were just right in the UK--and more deficient in Continental Europe.

Or also:
Inventing Freedom: How the English-Speaking Peoples Made the Modern World
http://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Freedom ... iel+hannan

[mrswdk]

we discovered there were more stuff they wanted insted of precious metalls: opium

lol. I think it was more a case of the British going to war and forcing China's doors open to the opium trade due to China not wanting opium.

18th century is the 1700s (Y)

[AslanTheKing]

Since english isnt my native language i apologize for any misunderstandings:)

The accumulating of money is based on investment in the intrest of getting more money, investing that to earn more and so on.... that economic fact didnt really got going until after the discovery of the Americas. In flandern and great britain. China as never had any intrest in this until way later, like today... thats how EU and US build up their economies to the standard of today. And keep on doing it but now the others are copying our way of doing things.

China were more intrested in gold/silver that they didnt use to invest... they made cool beutiful stuff with it, then we discovered there were more stuff they wanted insted of precious metalls: opium... and that was that for china.

Im not sure how u count time in english so i might have been 100 years off there... 18th century is that 1800 or 1700s:)?

I know that china invented the first notes... but they didnt use em to accumulate wealth! And i also know that according to history, at least here, the monetary system wwere something that the greeks came up with:) as usual...

There is no clear and easy solution to this question... even if u shoot all the poor people the problem would creep back up... cause no way humanity will ever get along on equal terms! I would be the first to salute that if it happened but i think in reality its a vision!

get more information about china and opium, your vision is blurred, than u will understand what happened then

you talk about accumulate wealth, well this is not important
the system is more complex-just yesterday russia "lost" 45 billions in one day
how long do you think u would need to "accumulate " wealth?

the monetary system wwere something that the greeks came up with:) as usual...
youre wrong again, it was the TURKS !!
they where making baklava and selling it to accelerate wealth
and their first bankrolles where out of baklava filopastry

[Metsfanmax]

re: bold, initially, all countries were poor, so how did wealth take off in England and Scotland?

What is your theory?

It's not mine, but I find the following to be convincing:

How the Scots Invented the Modern World
North. Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance


Mainly it's about the creation of ideas and the slow evolution of institutions founded upon private property rights, freer trade, and tolerable governance which were just right in the UK--and more deficient in Continental Europe.

Or also:
Inventing Freedom: How the English-Speaking Peoples Made the Modern World
http://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Freedom ... iel+hannan

What about the different natural resources? Does that play a role?