What does a police-free future look like?

[HitRed]

"9-1-1 Dispatch, do you need Fire, Police, EMS or a Mental Health Professional?"

[Dukasaur]

A world where mental health is performed by funded mental health professionals, not cops with an incentive to focus on punishment instead of treatment. A world where conflict resolution involves people not trained to use a legal monopoly on the use of force to solve problems. Where violent crime is less common because of the minimalization of the war-zone rhetoric created by cops. It's a better place. Not perfect, since people aren't perfect. Better, though.

So all criminals have mental health issues?

I think mental health is a root cause for many criminals/societal problems... but certainly not ALL, and maybe not even most.

It's all or nothing with you? You can't solve some problems unless they apply to all?

[jimboston]

A world where mental health is performed by funded mental health professionals, not cops with an incentive to focus on punishment instead of treatment. A world where conflict resolution involves people not trained to use a legal monopoly on the use of force to solve problems. Where violent crime is less common because of the minimalization of the war-zone rhetoric created by cops. It's a better place. Not perfect, since people aren't perfect. Better, though.

So all criminals have mental health issues?

I think mental health is a root cause for many criminals/societal problems... but certainly not ALL, and maybe not even most.

It's all or nothing with you? You can't solve some problems unless they apply to all?

No. I didn’t say that.

The question is... what does a “police-free” future look like.

The answer implies that we won’t need police if we have better mental-health professionals/system.

I am simply pointing out that, though if may reduce the need for police and allow us to reduce the number of police, it would not eliminate the need for police entirely.

[Dukasaur]

A world where mental health is performed by funded mental health professionals, not cops with an incentive to focus on punishment instead of treatment. A world where conflict resolution involves people not trained to use a legal monopoly on the use of force to solve problems. Where violent crime is less common because of the minimalization of the war-zone rhetoric created by cops. It's a better place. Not perfect, since people aren't perfect. Better, though.

So all criminals have mental health issues?

I think mental health is a root cause for many criminals/societal problems... but certainly not ALL, and maybe not even most.

It's all or nothing with you? You can't solve some problems unless they apply to all?

No. I didn’t say that.

The question is... what does a “police-free” future look like.

The answer implies that we won’t need police if we have better mental-health professionals/system.

I am simply pointing out that, though if may reduce the need for police and allow us to reduce the number of police, it would not eliminate the need for police entirely.

No, it implies what it says -- that we would have a reduced need for police if we had a better mental health system. We would further have a reduced need for police if we didn't have the police acting like a foreign invader and creating the idea that the best solution for all things is violence. That we would further have a reduced need for police if we had community mediators of some sort trained in non-violent conflict resolution instead of going in with billy clubs every time there's an argument at the supermarket.

He's not implying that it would solve all the problems, only some of the biggies. It's really not hard to read between the lines of what spurge posted if you're not deliberately trying to misunderstand.

[HitRed]

"9-1-1 Dispatch, do you need Police, Fire, EMS or MHP?"

Give it a try. Might work.

Might add (TM) Trained Mediator or (NM) Neighborhood Mediator.

[Dukasaur]

Cool!

[mrswdk]

A world where mental health is performed by funded mental health professionals, not cops with an incentive to focus on punishment instead of treatment. A world where conflict resolution involves people not trained to use a legal monopoly on the use of force to solve problems. Where violent crime is less common because of the minimalization of the war-zone rhetoric created by cops. It's a better place. Not perfect, since people aren't perfect. Better, though.

So all criminals have mental health issues?

I think mental health is a root cause for many criminals/societal problems... but certainly not ALL, and maybe not even most.

It's all or nothing with you? You can't solve some problems unless they apply to all?

No. I didn’t say that.

The question is... what does a “police-free” future look like.

The answer implies that we won’t need police if we have better mental-health professionals/system.

I am simply pointing out that, though if may reduce the need for police and allow us to reduce the number of police, it would not eliminate the need for police entirely.

No, it implies what it says -- that we would have a reduced need for police if we had a better mental health system. We would further have a reduced need for police if we didn't have the police acting like a foreign invader and creating the idea that the best solution for all things is violence. That we would further have a reduced need for police if we had community mediators of some sort trained in non-violent conflict resolution instead of going in with billy clubs every time there's an argument at the supermarket.

He's not implying that it would solve all the problems, only some of the biggies. It's really not hard to read between the lines of what spurge posted if you're not deliberately trying to misunderstand.

FYI I wouldn't get into a discussion about semantics with jim unless you have 40-50 spare hours to burn.

[jimboston]

A world where mental health is performed by funded mental health professionals, not cops with an incentive to focus on punishment instead of treatment. A world where conflict resolution involves people not trained to use a legal monopoly on the use of force to solve problems. Where violent crime is less common because of the minimalization of the war-zone rhetoric created by cops. It's a better place. Not perfect, since people aren't perfect. Better, though.

So all criminals have mental health issues?

I think mental health is a root cause for many criminals/societal problems... but certainly not ALL, and maybe not even most.

It's all or nothing with you? You can't solve some problems unless they apply to all?

No. I didn’t say that.

The question is... what does a “police-free” future look like.

The answer implies that we won’t need police if we have better mental-health professionals/system.

I am simply pointing out that, though if may reduce the need for police and allow us to reduce the number of police, it would not eliminate the need for police entirely.

No, it implies what it says -- that we would have a reduced need for police if we had a better mental health system. We would further have a reduced need for police if we didn't have the police acting like a foreign invader and creating the idea that the best solution for all things is violence. That we would further have a reduced need for police if we had community mediators of some sort trained in non-violent conflict resolution instead of going in with billy clubs every time there's an argument at the supermarket.

He's not implying that it would solve all the problems, only some of the biggies. It's really not hard to read between the lines of what spurge posted if you're not deliberately trying to misunderstand.

Please show me where her used the phrase “reduce need for police”.

He didn’t.

[mookiemcgee]

Please show me where he said "all criminals have mental health issues". You made an inference in your own mind that wasn't supported by what he wrote.

[jimboston]

Please show me where he said "all criminals have mental health issues". You made an inference in your own mind that wasn't supported by what he wrote.

The OP and Title of the Thread is “Police Free Future”

That doesn’t imply a world with no police... it outright states it.

If you want a “Reduced Police Future” it’s on you to make that clear.
Otherwise I’m going with the title of the thread.

[mookiemcgee]

Please show me where he said "all criminals have mental health issues". You made an inference in your own mind that wasn't supported by what he wrote.

The OP and Title of the Thread is “Police Free Future”

That doesn’t imply a world with no police... it outright states it.

If you want a “Reduced Police Future” it’s on you to make that clear.
Otherwise I’m going with the title of the thread.

So then complain his post was off-topic, and don't suggest he said all criminals have mental health issues. He never said anything even remotely like that.

[jusplay4fun]

Policing and police problems are complex and there is an attempt to offer simple solutions for political reasons.

My bottom line is that there will be a need for a Police unit capable of using force, as needed. The need for police forensics and investigation is rather obvious. Volunteers and police mediators and those who are more trained at avoiding a violent confrontation can be a HUGE help, in large and small cities. I agree with that.

I think part of the disagreement is what is meant by police, which is a complex matter and not simply policing using force to arrest people. There will be a need for that aspect of police work, as there will be individuals who will not respond to non-violent means to calm a situation.

There is often an expectation that a policeman (or woman) can be a mediator, parent, peace negotiator, counselor, and mental health professional. Sometimes decisions are made in split seconds and then police are judged in hindsight, as if that decision could have been better evaluated. Yes, there are bad cops and yes, cops sometimes make mistakes. And there are time when too much force is applied. Those mistakes go with the nature of human interactions. A police officer cannot be all things in all situations.

Most police interactions are not violent and does not result in an arrest. What has happened in the USA is that a FEW interactions are used to PAINT ALL POLICE as evil and/or racists. That attitude is, to me, at the heart of the current round of protests and outrage. Being at home with LOTS of time to watch a few videos of a few police actions causes many to become outraged. That results in lots of protests. And politicians try to use the situation for votes and simple sound bite solutions. And the media play up the controversy to sell "newspapers" and viewership for profit.

I think communities that have made an effort to have less confrontation and less "Us vs. Them" attitudes and stances have seen much more successful reduction of crime and violence and frustrations. Areas of high crime rate often result in an "Us vs. Them" situation, as efforts to reduce crime take precedence over less confrontational modes of "policing."

Volunteers can and should play a role; I agree with that.

JP4Fun

I disagree with Duk on this point. There is too much at stake and in my experience, police undergo LOTS of training. Others make the same argument in this thread between my two posts.

Volunteer firefighters put out fires the same way professional firefighters do. Volunteer doctors and nurses and paramedics save lives just as professional doctors and nurses and paramedics. Volunteer soldiers fight to defend their countries just as professional soldiers do. Volunteer coast-guardsmen rescue sailors just as professional coast-guardsmen do. Hell, there are even volunteer accountants who prepare tax returns just as professional accountants do.

All of these professions require high levels of training. And in all cases, volunteers prove themselves capable of attaining the same high standards.

What Duk proposes may work in a small town, but I doubt it work for large cities.

And yet, it's the cities that are most desperately in need of it. The biggest problem with policing is that an us-versus-them attitude develops between the police and the community. The police see themselves as something special and "civilians" as being a lower form of life. The civilians, in turn, see the police as an alien presence invading their neighbourhoods. This kind of attitude just feeds off itself. It's classic vicious cycle from which there is no escape. As the police get more hostile and abusive, the public gets more mistrustful and unco-operative, and vice-versa.

The only way to break this cycle is to have police who are members of the community, and not outsiders parachuted in by a hostile power. But if you just recruit a bunch of community cops and make professionals out of them, the same problem will soon return. The new cops will start to see themselves as a better than the people they are supposed to serve. They will soon be strutting around and pushing people around just as the existing cops do, and the cycle will return. The only way to permanently make community police, is to have the bulk of the force be volunteers, who have normal everyday jobs in places they serve and remain social equals to the people they hope to serve.

Specialized units that require unusually high training regimens like forensics, canine units, tactical units, and supervisors, will still be professionals. But the regular cop on the beat must see himself as a citizen, equal to the people he serves and not their master.

I don't think they're suggesting anarchy, or the absence of policing.

I think they're suggesting replacing the current system of militarized professional police with a more community-based and community-directed police force. Quite possibly a mix of volunteers and professionals, like the fire department in many places.

If they do it right, could be very good.

[/quote]

[The ram]

I have mixed with all types of criminals the majority have a much better mental health and intelligence than some office worker doing the same mundane shit day after day for the same money that a clever lad can make in a 5 minute phone call.

The authorities are getting clever but they are always a step behind. A massive blow to the underworld would be to stop the use of cash. If all wealth was electronic, that would leave a paper trail. Of course the authorities know that and are on it.

The Corona virus has been a huge pain in the arse for any type of illegal operation. Of course the authorities know that too. I believe that the virus is a psychological operation. It has had neighbour's ringing the police to complain about things like people visiting other households, people going out more than once a day. A sort of 1984 scenario.

Then there's sex offenders and murderers. These problems, I believe are down to life experiences. So, unless you can provide the entire population with a comfortable lifestyle with a minimal amount of work, and sex to inadequate people like Shimmy the incel, then these crimes are always going to be here.

The only way we could possibly live in a police free state is if our freedoms are taken away, and that's exactly where we're headed.

[mrswdk]

IOW ram's neighbours reported him for repeated violations of lockdown and now he thinks he lives in Nazi Germany

[jimboston]

QUESTION:
OP: What does a police-free future look like?

ANSWER:

A world where mental health is performed by funded mental health professionals, not cops with an incentive to focus on punishment instead of treatment. A world where conflict resolution involves people not trained to use a legal monopoly on the use of force to solve problems. Where violent crime is less common because of the minimalization of the war-zone rhetoric created by cops. It's a better place. Not perfect, since people aren't perfect. Better, though.

The answer clearly implies we can eliminate police by using mental health professionals and “people not trained to use a legal monopoly on the use of force to solve problems”.

It’s a simplistic answer to a complex problem.

It’s also bashing police... which basically this whole thread is doing.

Are police reforms necessary? Yes.
Are there societal issues we can address that may alleviate many problems and reduce the need for police? Yes.
Is it possible to eliminate the need for police entirely anytime in the near future (or maybe ever)? No.

Any society you could imagine (with similar population levels to our current society) either requires police... or would involve massive infringement on individual liberty similar to societies described in “Brave New World” or “This Perfect Day”.

Calls to “eliminate” the police or “defund the police” are short sighted and ignorant.

I believe we need change.

That said... in a binary world, if I were presented with two options...
1) Eliminate all police immediately.
2) Keep things exactly as they are.

I would choose option 2 all day, every day, and twice on Sunday.

Anyone who would choose option 1 is either an idiot or being disingenuous.

[saxitoxin]

Seattle has four police stations; two days ago the Mayor turned over one (25%) of the two primary stations to protesters for use as an art collaborative. The average police call response times for violent offenses such as rape and child kidnapping have now increased from less than five minutes to 18 minutes.

https://komonews.com/news/local/best-sp ... t-precinct

In addition, they're no longer responding to non-violent calls like car thefts. Property insurers say they plan to increase insurance rates for policyholders as contracts start to expire since they anticipate they'll be incurring increased claim volumes.

Meanwhile, in the area that used to be the city's East Precinct, hip hop artist Raz Simone has assumed power as warlord and is now providing policing in the absence of the Seattle Police Department. Entry into this area requires one to present ID to one of Raz's men and filming or photography without Raz's permission results in expulsion. Police say they have heard reports of businesses ordered to make "donations" to Raz to help finance "protection."

https://komonews.com/news/local/whats-t ... omous-zone
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/ ... 580d0073f8

So that's what a 25% police free future looks like.

[HitRed]

Will autonomous zones supply their own electric, water and gas?

[2dimes]

Some places will not have electricity after the copper wires get stolen.

[HitRed]

June 11, 20

I speak so that others may know that I live and have being.

I close the gap between humanity and time. I have lessened the time humans have on earth. My patience is running out for mankind. I have much mercy and few ask for it these days. I have much to give mankind and still they do not look to me for answers. I have all answers for the world at this time.

I can not wait much longer before mankind destroys itself. My order must be restored once again to bring peace. I am the way, the truth, and the life of the world. I come to bring order and respect back to the commands given so long ago to Moses. My commands are for everyone to follow; not just a few. My commands still have just as much standing as they did in Moses’ day. People need law and order still in this present day. My whole world is based on this order. Your President* stands for order therefore I stand with him.

My Kingdom will come to earth in due time. My order will reign forevermore into eternity. Belief and trust in me is needed more now. Trust in me for all things. I have all things in my grasp, and I hold firmly to those that follow my ways.

Go in my love and mercy.

* Donald J. Trump

[saxitoxin]

This is what daily life is like in the UKGBNI with unarmed police (except in ethnic ghettos, like Northern Ireland, where all police are armed 100% of the time). Officers being randomly attacked in the streets and overwhelmed by criminal street gangs; used as punching bags with no ability to stop anyone. Knife crime rampant. Property crime out of control.

Just today -


Had this happened in the United States every single person in that video would have been shot dead within seconds - there would be no polite requests from a lady police officer to please stop trying to murder her colleague. An attack on the police is not just an assault on an individual but an attack on the constitutional order itself, the whole of civilized society. Lethal force is used not to protect the individual officer but to protect the whole of society.

[jusplay4fun]

I think I already said this, so I definitely agree with JimBoston on this point.

JimBoston said:

It’s a simplistic answer to a complex problem.

The rest of that last post by him also makes sense to me. We need police; some reforms would improve society.

One cannot eliminate biased; one key to a better world is to keep biases to an acceptable minimum. The real key is to respect each other, no matter our personal biases.

JP4Fun

[TeeGee]

Before going down this path we should test it for six months in New York.

Hey, hang on.. That is where we hide the CC servers (I think)

[ConfederateSS]

Before going down this path we should test it for six months in New York.

-----------It has already been tested...
------------Get out of Dodge...Johnny Law... KOOL,Looks like we are going back to THE OLD WEST.... ..... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

-------We have a winner... ... SEATTLE...I mean CHAZ ...Go Democrats Go... ....... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[2dimes]

Florida is a big lawless swamp. A major public safety issue in Florida is the number of golfers attacked by dinosaurs.

Things in Florida might be getting worse.

[YukFoo]

Who is going to take semen samples if there are no police?