Treating the Pill as Abortion.

[Xayath]

Pope - y , in the words of brain

Quiet you

sorry knee jerk reaction pretend this is the beginning of my text

Anyways, simply put, this country is (USA) not a solely christian country, any justification based on a single religion's view, christian or not, has no bering on the issue.

Second, the issue is not whether or not life begins at conception but whether a person is evident at conception. To explain i will cite that animals, such as cats or dogs are put to sleep every year if not every day. And so any biological imperative is also lost on this issue

Humans are not at par with non-sentient life or limitied-sentient life. While certian animals have been proven to be able to act independently of instinct and to have personalities, there is not enough substainciation to show the comaparitive level of sentience displayed even by those with mental handicaps.

The danger here is that first a religious group is trying to enforce its tenants on those who are not of their religion. Even though they are useing quasi- legal means this is still a problem. Second is that the issue is not substanciated by real facts, it has been proven that a fetus cannot survive on its own untill the brain is developed, this is the smallest necessity.

hold it. why am i even trying i could write a disertation on why this is wrong. its no longer worth it. later guys

[black elk speaks]

Lots of views here but truth is not based on a majority opinion. The fact is that a fertilized egg (no matter what state in it's development) is in fact a human being. It can not be anything else. When allowed to grow it will always grow into a human baby and not anything else. Being allowed to attach to the uterin wall is merly how it gets its nutrients to grow larger. The fact that the pill hardens the walls to prevent this does not de-legitimize it being a human. The argumant of "when is it a human" has no basis. some pro abortion advocates say it's not a baby until it breaths.......What? Then what the hell is it? "A "Glob of tissue" that even when born many months premature and lives is still guess what.....A Human! Whether 9 months or 9 seconds the only difference is the size and if it is yet self sustaining. It needing the mother to grow is like you needing life support until you heal from a major injury but it does not mean you are not a human.

If murder is wrong...it is always wrong. The Pill kills fertilized eggs...AKA Human Babies. Choose to believe it or not but it is the truth.

Oh, and Onan was struck down for spilling his seed not for not giving his brother an heir. The punishment for not fufilling that duty was not death but a kind of shunning and public embarisment according to Deuteronomy 25. So he was killed for (as Genisis says) "what he did" AKA spilling his sead.......not "what he did not do" AKA supply an Heir.

Hope that all made sence.

well, you argue that a fertilized egg is a human being. that is not something that is decidable here in this forum. the fact that the egg is really a collection of stem cells is actually a better depiction of what a fertilized egg is, in my opinion. the potential is there to become a human being is there, but i do not agree that it is just yet a human being.

my wife had a baby 2 years ago. she was born at home. we had the privilege of examining the placenta after the birth and discovered in there a mass of fleshy tissue that was the potential twin to my daughter. did my daughter murder that twin? did that twin suffer at the hands of her evil sister? of course not. the twin was never a human being. it had the potential that never came about.

before you label a fertilized egg as a human, you need to assert that it is your opinion, and the opinion of your church, because as a fact, it does not stand. there are many that believe otherwise and it is so widely debated that it cannot yet be argued one way or the other as fact.

[PopeBenXVI]

You can not survive on your own if I pull your lungs out........are you then a out of womb "adult Fetus"? Your not making any sense.

The issue IS when life begins as it does begin when Sperm and egg come together. That is the same genetic makup as the adult and science proves it. Being self sustaining whether measured by brain function or other means makes no difference.

I

[black elk speaks]

You can not survive on your own if I pull your lungs out........are you then a out of womb "adult Fetus"? Your not making any sense.

The issue IS when life begins as it does begin when Sperm and egg come together. That is the same genetic makup as the adult and science proves it. Being self sustaining whether measured by brain function or other means makes no difference.

I

ummm. if you pull my lungs out, then you have killed me. I had the ability to thrive and think and laugh and love, etc, but you took away what I had. a fertilized egg never had any of those things, only the potential for them. i suggest that you do not make any sense, what so ever with that first sentence. really, read it again to your self and explain it, if you can.

now, if i cut off my finger, and destroy it with fire, have i committed murder? it has the genetic make up of a human being. it was never able to live apart of my hand. it cannot think or communicate, it has no brain. whats more, it never has potential to become a human being. it was part of a human, but now, discarded, is it murder?

[PopeBenXVI]

The fact that your daughter did not grow to be a full grown baby does not not mean she was not your human daughter, and a person. I am sorry to hear that happened. Also, to even bring up one murdering the other makes no comparitive sense. To murder is to do somthing intentional and to be completly awaire of those ramifications.

So if you don't agree it was as you put it" Just yet a human being" then tell me when you think it is. Seriously, What specific day of the pregnancy does it all of a sudden become your child but a moment earlier it was not?

[comic boy]

Heres the deal
I will stop supporting parents who use machetes to discipline kids ,if the fruitloops stop using their fairy tale beliefs to influence others. As there seems to be confusion about what constitutes life then let me explain how things work, if you want to get married then dont rely on a biologist and if you want a medical opinion then dont ask a fucking priest !

[black elk speaks]

The fact that your daughter did not grow to be a full grown baby does not not mean she was not your human daughter, and a person. I am sorry to hear that happened. Also, to even bring up one murdering the other makes no comparitive sense. To murder is to do somthing intentional and to be completly awaire of those ramifications.

So if you don't agree it was as you put it" Just yet a human being" then tell me when you think it is. Seriously, What specific day of the pregnancy does it all of a sudden become your child but a moment earlier it was not?

to me, once it is attached and in the process of consumption of nutrients from its host, the mother.

by the way, i do not suggest that my daughter murdered her twin, her twin would have to be a human for there to be murder. there ever was only one baby in the womb.

[PopeBenXVI]

You stated: Second is that the issue is not substanciated by real facts, it has been proven that a fetus cannot survive on its own untill the brain is developed, this is the smallest necessity.

Your implication is that it is not a person because they are not self sustaining. I was showing that you would then not be either if your lungs were ripped out. According to your own definition you would not be a human

[black elk speaks]

Heres the deal
I will stop supporting parents who use machetes to discipline kids ,if the fruitloops stop using their fairy tale beliefs to influence others. As there seems to be confusion about what constitutes life then let me explain how things work, if you want to get married then dont rely on a biologist and if you want a medical opinion then dont ask a fucking priest !

i do not think that belligerence will help anyone. what ever a person's belief, they are, like you, entitled to it. he is allowed to express himself on what ever belief he chooses. it is this debate that, in a civil and un-confrontational context, will help people get to the root of the problem. then we will be able to move past it. it just may be that he is right in all of this and i am completely wrong.

i never really thought about when life actually began until just now. already, i have learned about myself and this debate. it is a good day, but your belligerence, and others in this thread, cloud the argument.

[PopeBenXVI]

Well said Black

[Frigidus]

You stated: Second is that the issue is not substanciated by real facts, it has been proven that a fetus cannot survive on its own untill the brain is developed, this is the smallest necessity.

Your implication is that it is not a person because they are not self sustaining. I was showing that you would then not be either if your lungs were ripped out. According to your own definition you would not be a human

Except he is already self-sustained. If a...no, what am I doing. This was already pointed out to you. Never mind.

[PopeBenXVI]

what does it matter if you already had an ability or not. Blind people find sight and sighted people go blind. Your eyeballs genetics don't turn into anything different

[Neoteny]

what does it matter if you already had an ability or not. Blind people find sight and sighted people go blind. Your eyeballs genetics don't turn into anything different

It's true. Except for eyeball cancer.

[PopeBenXVI]

lol......OH you forgot about being at the Chernobyl disaster too!

[black elk speaks]

what does it matter if you already had an ability or not. Blind people find sight and sighted people go blind. Your eyeballs genetics don't turn into anything different

from what i hear, stem cells do.

These inner cells have this ability to form any type of the 220 cell types of the body, and this capacity is called totipotency.

and i like this too.

Now if one were to take the inner cells of a 5-day human embryo (less than 50 cells) and put them into a flask and give them the right vitamins, hormones, nutrients, and structural supports, they will keep on growing and dividing. Moreover, they will retain their totipotency. These cells are called embryonic stem cells.

[comic boy]

Heres the deal
I will stop supporting parents who use machetes to discipline kids ,if the fruitloops stop using their fairy tale beliefs to influence others. As there seems to be confusion about what constitutes life then let me explain how things work, if you want to get married then dont rely on a biologist and if you want a medical opinion then dont ask a fucking priest !

i do not think that belligerence will help anyone. what ever a person's belief, they are, like you, entitled to it. he is allowed to express himself on what ever belief he chooses. it is this debate that, in a civil and un-confrontational context, will help people get to the root of the problem. then we will be able to move past it. it just may be that he is right in all of this and i am completely wrong.

i never really thought about when life actually began until just now. already, i have learned about myself and this debate. it is a good day, but your belligerence, and others in this thread, cloud the argument.

Noble words but the bottom line is that legislation ( and that is what this is all about ) must always be considered in a secular not religious context. There really is no moral argument in favour of abortion so it is folly to think there is anything to debate, in a perfect world it would never be neccessary and subsequently would never happen. However as it is not a perfect world we are forced to address matters in a relative fashion and relatively speaking the degree of murder associated with abortion is miniscule and therefore we are justified in making the operation ( within a recognised timescale ) legal. Incidently beligerance is perfectly acceptable providing there is a reasonable point enclosed within it, would you prefer acres of polite but utterly bland prose with nothing of worth imparted ?

[PopeBenXVI]

I am enjoying this but it is way late. Another day perhaps...maybe we will meet in a game some time and can continue. FYI, about 7 years ago I was about as pro death rights as you can get, then I realized what a lie it all is and how harmfull abortion is to woman sugically and emotionally for years after. If you love your wives and Daughters as I do mine, you want what is best for them. Abortion is not it and Planned parenthood makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year off that genocide business. They have the agenda and motive....I have peoples lives in mind.

Nite

[Neoteny]

what does it matter if you already had an ability or not. Blind people find sight and sighted people go blind. Your eyeballs genetics don't turn into anything different

from what i hear, stem cells do.

These inner cells have this ability to form any type of the 220 cell types of the body, and this capacity is called totipotency.

Jacques Monod and Francois Jacob for you. Back when the French did science.

Also, Zonday

[comic boy]

I am enjoying this but it is way late. Another day perhaps...maybe we will meet in a game some time and can continue. FYI, about 7 years ago I was about as pro death rights as you can get, then I realized what a lie it all is and how harmfull abortion is to woman sugically and emotionally for years after. If you love your wives and Daughters as I do mine, you want what is best for them. Abortion is not it and Planned parenthood makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year off that genocide business. They have the agenda and motive....I have peoples lives in mind.

Nite

If your point is that abortion is undesirable and should be discouraged ( certainly as a form of contraception ) then I agree with you, the problem is that I am not aware of anybody who actually supports an entirely opposite view so I assume you have an agenda rather more fareaching, ie the forced prevention of abortion.

[wrestler1ump]

I am enjoying this but it is way late. Another day perhaps...maybe we will meet in a game some time and can continue. FYI, about 7 years ago I was about as pro death rights as you can get, then I realized what a lie it all is and how harmfull abortion is to woman sugically and emotionally for years after. If you love your wives and Daughters as I do mine, you want what is best for them. Abortion is not it and Planned parenthood makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year off that genocide business. They have the agenda and motive....I have peoples lives in mind.

Nite

If your point is that abortion is undesirable and should be discouraged ( certainly as a form of contraception ) then I agree with you, the problem is that I am not aware of anybody who actually supports an entirely opposite view so I assume you have an agenda rather more fareaching, ie the forced prevention of abortion.

Maybe he is just against abortion. Stop reading into it so much and accusing people.

[got tonkaed]

I mean sure his last post could be him just arguing strongly, but theres a difference imo at least between people who are against abortion and people who call it a genocide business.

[comic boy]

Well thats my point, seems obvious there is an agenda that goes way past a dislike of abortion.

[Nikolai]

what does it matter if you already had an ability or not. Blind people find sight and sighted people go blind. Your eyeballs genetics don't turn into anything different

from what i hear, stem cells do.

These inner cells have this ability to form any type of the 220 cell types of the body, and this capacity is called totipotency.

and i like this too.

Now if one were to take the inner cells of a 5-day human embryo (less than 50 cells) and put them into a flask and give them the right vitamins, hormones, nutrients, and structural supports, they will keep on growing and dividing. Moreover, they will retain their totipotency. These cells are called embryonic stem cells.

Umm... you do realize that every successful experiment with stem cells to date has been with adult stem cells, and that embryonic stem cells have yet to succeed as they theoretically should have? Research...

[Xayath]

Note the genetics of any cell are identical to that of the host (in this case the organism rather than the parent) in biology it is the hormones that select what kind of cell it will be. Not argueing any point just a clairification

[Neoteny]

what does it matter if you already had an ability or not. Blind people find sight and sighted people go blind. Your eyeballs genetics don't turn into anything different

from what i hear, stem cells do.

These inner cells have this ability to form any type of the 220 cell types of the body, and this capacity is called totipotency.

and i like this too.

Now if one were to take the inner cells of a 5-day human embryo (less than 50 cells) and put them into a flask and give them the right vitamins, hormones, nutrients, and structural supports, they will keep on growing and dividing. Moreover, they will retain their totipotency. These cells are called embryonic stem cells.

Umm... you do realize that every successful experiment with stem cells to date has been with adult stem cells, and that embryonic stem cells have yet to succeed as they theoretically should have? Research...

Every successful experiment?