Validity of the Bible

[vtmarik]

I believe it was Johnny Depp as Ed Wood who said "Haven't you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?"

The only problem with hardcore Christians is that they seem to have taken the concept to its most extreme conclusion.

[Backglass]

Anyway, as long as the story's good it doesn't have to be logical.

Which sums it all up nicely.

Not really, but I'll let you guys have your fun.

Feel free to answer any of the questions jay.

Do you dare? Cmon'! I double dare ya!

[kclborat]

Jay, I have a question. What about the people who were around before the bible existed? I understand your idea that nowadays it is just a choice, but back then no one even knew the "true religion". did God hate them? does God want to punish them for some reason? Another thing: The catholics had it right untill the 1500s. Now the Protestants have it right, according to you. This leads me to the conclusion that no one went to heaven until the 1500's when Luther broke from the catholic church. A loving God? Or is it just that you refuse to see any other ways to heaven?

[Caleb the Cruel]

it's a reminder, of what happened, of how the Islamic militants attacked us, and why we must now fight back, or they will attack us here again.

I agree.

Let me know when we start fighting back against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida.

So far we have not.

You've gotta be joking...We've been fighting against Al Qaida in Afghanistan for 5 years now! And now NATO has taken control of the front in Afghanistan, and we are part of NATO, therefore we are continuing the fight. Now we are fighting more Islamic militants in Iraq. I know there are only an estimated 1200-2300 Al Qaida members in Iraq. But, if we don't fight them over there, then those 2300 Al Qaida members could come here and run more planes into tall buildings and kill more Americans than they're killing in Iraq. Not to mention the many thousands of other Islamic militants that are in Iraq that are not necessarily part of Al Qaida.

[Caleb the Cruel]

Let's also not forget that the best memorial to that tragedy would be to rebuild the towers, add an extra story, and strengthen them further.

Yeah, I wanted for them to build replicas of the originals, only taller.

[s.xkitten]

it's a reminder, of what happened, of how the Islamic militants attacked us, and why we must now fight back, or they will attack us here again.

I agree.

Let me know when we start fighting back against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida.

So far we have not.

You've gotta be joking...We've been fighting against Al Qaida in Afghanistan for 5 years now! And now NATO has taken control of the front in Afghanistan, and we are part of NATO, therefore we are continuing the fight. Now we are fighting more Islamic militants in Iraq. I know there are only an estimated 1200-2300 Al Qaida members in Iraq. But, if we don't fight them over there, then those 2300 Al Qaida members could come here and run more planes into tall buildings and kill more Americans than they're killing in Iraq. Not to mention the many thousands of other Islamic militants that are in Iraq that are not necessarily part of Al Qaida.

we went to war with iraq for their WMDs....that aren't there anymore...and its not a war, technically (hasn't been a declared war since WWII)...its more like a conflict...a big one...anyway, the point is, we used a fake excuse to go to war, and now we can't back out...which sucks, cause american's are being killed every day for a cause that most other americans find pointless...

[vtmarik]

Let's also not forget that the best memorial to that tragedy would be to rebuild the towers, add an extra story, and strengthen them further.

Yeah, I wanted for them to build replicas of the originals, only taller.

I don't mean replicas, I mean actual towers. The best way to show that we will prevail is to put the towers right back where they were and how they were.

We won't be intimidated by criminal threats.

[jay_a2j]

Jay, I have a question. What about the people who were around before the bible existed? I understand your idea that nowadays it is just a choice, but back then no one even knew the "true religion". did God hate them? does God want to punish them for some reason? Another thing: The catholics had it right untill the 1500s. Now the Protestants have it right, according to you. This leads me to the conclusion that no one went to heaven until the 1500's when Luther broke from the catholic church. A loving God? Or is it just that you refuse to see any other ways to heaven?

Pre-Jesus the Jews sacrificed unblemished sheep/lambs for remission of sin (there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood). Jesus came and shed his blood as a final sacrifice once and for all.

Denominational beliefs are not what gets you to heaven. "Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead and you will be saved". It is turning from sin and following Jesus, and most denominations teach this. Denominations were made by man. People can be Christians yet be different denominations.

There is only one way to heaven as Jesus stated, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." In order to reach God the Father we must accept His Son.

[kclborat]

Then why are Catholics not Christian in your view? And what about the people before the Jews, like the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the people from Mesopotamia, the Chinese, the Mongolians, the Russians, the African cultures and the Saxons (to name a few)?

[jay_a2j]

Then why are Catholics not Christian in your view? And what about the people before the Jews, like the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the people from Mesopotamia, the Chinese, the Mongolians, the Russians, the African cultures and the Saxons (to name a few)?

Catholics can be Christian. I have a hard time with some of the things they believe but they can accept Jesus just like anyone else. As for your second question, I don't know. I don't believe there was a "before the Jews". The Jews are God's chosen people. There were non-Jews like you mentioned the Egyptians.

[Mirak]

Then why are Catholics not Christian in your view? And what about the people before the Jews, like the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the people from Mesopotamia, the Chinese, the Mongolians, the Russians, the African cultures and the Saxons (to name a few)?

Catholics can be Christian. I have a hard time with some of the things they believe but they can accept Jesus just like anyone else. As for your second question, I don't know. I don't believe there was a "before the Jews". The Jews are God's chosen people. There were non-Jews like you mentioned the Egyptians.

Holy moly!
You don't believe there was a "before the Jews"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
Are there no limits to your ignorance?

Very gracious of you to acknowledge the existence of the Egyptians.

[vtmarik]

There are some theories that Judaism, and by extension Christianity, grew out of an obscure Egyptian cult known as the Cult of Aten.

Akhenaten began this cult when he was pharaoh and it continued on after he'd died. It replaced the various gods of Egyptian Orthodoxy with one single god, Aten, of which Akhenaten was the avatar of his invented sun god.

Some of these references to God = Sun are in the Bible.
http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/psalm104.html

It's not conclusive proof, but it's interesting...

[jay_a2j]

Then why are Catholics not Christian in your view? And what about the people before the Jews, like the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the people from Mesopotamia, the Chinese, the Mongolians, the Russians, the African cultures and the Saxons (to name a few)?

Catholics can be Christian. I have a hard time with some of the things they believe but they can accept Jesus just like anyone else. As for your second question, I don't know. I don't believe there was a "before the Jews". The Jews are God's chosen people. There were non-Jews like you mentioned the Egyptians.

Holy moly!
You don't believe there was a "before the Jews"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
Are there no limits to your ignorance?

Very gracious of you to acknowledge the existence of the Egyptians.

Have you ever read a Bible?


*sigh*

[Mirak]

Not in its entirety...your point please...minus the sighing and raised eyebrows please

Have you read anything other than the bible?

[jay_a2j]

Not in its entirety...your point please...minus the sighing and raised eyebrows please

Have you read anything other than the bible?

My point is: in the Bible man started with Adam and Eve. Flood. Noah and family.... Jews.


And to your second question yes. I have read Savage Nation by Michael Savage. A few book by Dean Kootz, Runaway Jury by John Grisham and many more books. Why do you ask?

[vtmarik]

My point is: in the Bible man started with Adam and Eve. Flood. Noah and family.... Jews.

In the norse tradition, man started when Odhinn, Vili, and Ve (or according to some Odhinn, Hoenir, and Lodur) started out together and walked along the seashore where they found either two trees, the Ash (Ask) and the Elm (Embla), or two blocks of wood hewn into crude human forms. The gods gazed upon the wood with silent wonders; then, perceiving the use it could be put to, Odhinn gave these logs souls, Hoenir bestowed motion and senses, and Lodur contributed blood and blooming complexions. Thus endowed with speech and thought, the power to love and to hope and to work, and with life and death the newly created man and woman were left to rule the human world (Midgard) at their will.

Sounds pretty similar to Adam and Eve being created from the dusts.

[mandalorian2298]

Not in its entirety...your point please...minus the sighing and raised eyebrows please

Have you read anything other than the bible?

My point is: in the Bible man started with Adam and Eve. Flood. Noah and family.... Jews.


And to your second question yes. I have read Savage Nation by Michael Savage. A few book by Dean Kootz, Runaway Jury by John Grisham and many more books. Why do you ask?

Adam and Eve weren't Jews. Jews are the children of Abraham. Therefore, the people before Abraham weren't Jews.

[MeDeFe]

jay, for arguments sake I'll stick with the bible on this one and not talk about the archaeological evidence you will refuse to see anyway.

so... god creates A&E (the first two humans ever), they get thrown out, have children (the genealogy is pretty detailed), Cain murders his brother and when god makes him an outcast there are suddenly a whole lot of other people and tribes Cain's afraid will kill him. They weren't mentioned before. Where did they come from? Did they spontaneously appear and multiply by cell division?



try to explain that before you come up with such ludicrous claims as that there were no people before the jews.
Next thing you'll be claiming the universe was created 6010 years ago...

[heavycola]

Get this: evangelical christians argue that incest was perfectly OK back then. So Cain got it on with his sister.

This is a perfect example of creationists shoehorning whatever is necessary into their belief system in order to shore it up:
- Cain had a wife, but the bible says we are all descended from Adam and Eve, so...
- She MUST have been his sister.
- Oh noes! Incest is bad and is possibly the greatest taboo there is (unless you live in Wales). Nasty conundrum there.
- Erm..
- Incest must have been fine until god specifically said it wasn't.
- Phew! Disaster averted.

Am i right jay?

[jay_a2j]

jay, for arguments sake I'll stick with the bible on this one and not talk about the archaeological evidence you will refuse to see anyway.

so... god creates A&E (the first two humans ever), they get thrown out, have children (the genealogy is pretty detailed), Cain murders his brother and when god makes him an outcast there are suddenly a whole lot of other people and tribes Cain's afraid will kill him. They weren't mentioned before. Where did they come from? Did they spontaneously appear and multiply by cell division?



try to explain that before you come up with such ludicrous claims as that there were no people before the jews.
Next thing you'll be claiming the universe was created 6010 years ago...

The Bible does not mention women when it goes into geneology. C&A had sisters no doubt. They also had a younger brother named Seth. For the most part the geneology in the Bible follows the Jews lineage.

And yes heavycola, when you start a creation with 1 man and 1 woman and you need to populate the world in order for them to survive, you're going to have some intimate relations with family. Otherwise populating the Earth would not happen. You should be happy that did instead of making fun of it..... otherwise you wouldn't be here!

[heavycola]

I love this.

Even bible literalists couldn't get around the problem of Cain's wife...

so they legitimised incest instead. Fantastic.

[Backglass]

so they legitimised incest instead. Fantastic.

Do not covet your neighbors wife...but your sister? That's OK.

The lengths that the deluded will go to explain away obvious BS is utterly amazing.

[Backglass]

You've gotta be joking...We've been fighting against Al Qaida in Afghanistan for 5 years now!

Evidently King George doesnt think so. I would think it would be easy to eliminate 1200-2300 people with the 300 Billion+ wasted in Iraq. We could have been finished 4 years ago, yet he decided to avenge a family vendetta and lie to the American people in the process.

But, if we don't fight them over there, then those 2300 Al Qaida members could come here and run more planes into tall buildings and kill more Americans than they're killing in Iraq.

It is this kind of BS scare tactic that keeps us in Iraq now. The whole "if we werent there fighting them, they would come after us" crap. Our mere presence is gasoline on their fire and the single largest membership drive in anti-american insurgence history. Besides...King George created the homeland security office & TSA to prevent those things from happening again. Remember? Dont you feel so much safer now?

Not to mention the many thousands of other Islamic militants that are in Iraq that are not necessarily part of Al Qaida.

Of course! We invaded their country! And they will continue to pop up like whack-a-mole until the end of time until we go. Hey..."Mission Accomplished" remember? Hussein - Check. WMD's - Check. Bring the boys home now.

Where you are badly misguided like many of the american people is:
Iraq does not equal Al Qaeda and never did.
Iraq does not equal 9-11 and never did.

Osama Bin Laden and a tiny group of rebels attacked us five years ago. Not Iraq, Not Iran, Not Afghanistan, Not Saddam Hussein. Remember THAT.

[MeDeFe]

Even if they'd been jackhammering daily and she'd been getting twins or even more children at a time, you don't get whole PEOPLES (read: tribes) in one generation. Unless you actually believe that they really got as old as 800-900 years and one generation means 200-300 years.

And how come all those children aren't mentioned then? Genealogy is something that most biblical texts take very seriously and there are bound to be some males among that many kids.

I think humans really max out around 130 years. Maybe someone might make it to 140 in a few years since medical care is getting better all the time, but most people die a lot earlier. Average life expectancy in industrial countries is somewhere around 80-85 years I think.



Jay, reading the bible literally is absolutely ridiculous, it's not a bad book, there's some sensible stuff in there, too. But no human being has EVER lived for 800 years.

[Caleb the Cruel]

Let's also not forget that the best memorial to that tragedy would be to rebuild the towers, add an extra story, and strengthen them further.

Yeah, I wanted for them to build replicas of the originals, only taller.

I don't mean replicas, I mean actual towers. The best way to show that we will prevail is to put the towers right back where they were and how they were.

We won't be intimidated by criminal threats.

2. any close or exact copy or reproduction.
-dictionary.com
They would be towers, we're saying the exact same thing!
I want them to make new towers that look like the old ones, only larger.