account sitting issues..new rule? <updated - see 1st post>

[Timminz]

yes. A single "no" means no, but what about no response at all? I just think that anyone who is against it should have to answer the question. If one team goes through the trouble of asking permission, and the other team doesn't want that option available to them, they should have to say something. I'm being misunderstood by a lot of mods here. Twill thinks I'm promoting shoplifting, and Wicked just never seems to understand what I'm talking about.

Tim, just because we may not necessarily agree with your points doesn't mean they're not understood.

There have been numerous times where I was not as well-spoken as I would like, and it's been obvious that my thoughts have been slightly mis-understood. Sorry, if I wasn't more clear in my wording before. It's obviously something I need to work on.

[MrMoody]

I think a better way to curb abuse would be to make a specific reference to the number of turns someone can take for their teammate (once they've been given permission, of course). I see no reason why a sitter should need to take more than one turn per day. Sitting should only be used to keep from missing turns, so once a day would be sufficient. I can easily see how someone taking 3-4 or more turns for their teammate in a single day, could be seen as abusing the privilege.

This is the reason the whole thread was started. A person taking more then one turn as a babysitter when they knew the member would return the next day. Am i right?

[Timminz]

I think a better way to curb abuse would be to make a specific reference to the number of turns someone can take for their teammate (once they've been given permission, of course). I see no reason why a sitter should need to take more than one turn per day. Sitting should only be used to keep from missing turns, so once a day would be sufficient. I can easily see how someone taking 3-4 or more turns for their teammate in a single day, could be seen as abusing the privilege.

This is the reason the whole thread was started. A person taking more then one turn as a babysitter when they knew the member would return the next day. Am i right?

That was my impression too. Which is why the proposed solution seems like over-kill, too me. If that's what it takes to curb the abuse though....

[yeti_c]

It may have started it - but there are other bits of abuse that are being looked at too...

i.e. SkyT - Warsteiner.

C.

[owenshooter]

It may have started it - but there are other bits of abuse that are being looked at too...

i.e. SkyT - Warsteiner.

C.

no, this solution seems geared specifically to those players and others at the top that abuse FREESTYLE TEAM BABY SITTING to harvest points. oddly enough, the people this new rule is aimed at have yet to post a word in their own defense OR in their baby sitting tactics defense. however, a slew of SEQUENTIAL TEAM players have done just that. oddly enough, we are still being lumped in with those that use baby sitting for an ACTUAL ADVANTAGE instead of what is just a PERCEIVED ADVANTAGE (i have yet to see anyone show me a specific instance of an advantage being gained in a team sequential game). this rule is overkill, because it should mainly apply to freestyle where the majority, if not all, of the abuse in team games occurs.-0

[Timminz]

It may have started it - but there are other bits of abuse that are being looked at too...

i.e. SkyT - Warsteiner.

C.

no, this solution seems geared specifically to those players and others at the top that abuse FREESTYLE
TEAM BABY SITTING to harvest points. oddly enough, the people this new rule is aimed at have yet to post
a word in their own defense OR in their baby sitting tactics defense. however, a slew of SEQUENTIAL TEAM
players have done just that. oddly enough, we are still being lumped in with those that use baby sitting
for an ACTUAL ADVANTAGE instead of what is just a PERCEIVED ADVANTAGE (i have yet to see anyone show
me a specific instance of an advantage being gained in a team sequential game). this rule is overkill, because
it should mainly apply to freestyle where the majority, if not all, of the abuse in team games occurs.-0

But it won't

[MrMoody]

no, this solution seems geared specifically to those players and others at the top that abuse FREESTYLE TEAM BABY SITTING to harvest points. oddly enough, the people this new rule is aimed at have yet to post a word in their own defense OR in their baby sitting tactics defense. however, a slew of SEQUENTIAL TEAM players have done just that. oddly enough, we are still being lumped in with those that use baby sitting for an ACTUAL ADVANTAGE instead of what is just a PERCEIVED ADVANTAGE (i have yet to see anyone show me a specific instance of an advantage being gained in a team sequential game). this rule is overkill, because it should mainly apply to freestyle where the majority, if not all, of the abuse in team games occurs.-0

I almost agree owen, but are you saying there should be a second rule or amendments to the rule for just freestyle? I think one rule to cover all of babysitting and all styles of play is still the best choice.

[owenshooter]

I almost agree owen, but are you saying there should be a second rule or amendments to the rule for just freestyle? I think one rule to cover all of babysitting and all styles of play is still the best choice.

the cheating they are aiming at stopping is in freestyle... so why are sequential players being targeted for baby sitting tactics that do not create any advantage at all? if i am playing a team freestyle game, baby sitting, and take every turn at the same time together, that is a HUGE advantage, an ACTUAL ADVANTAGE. the advantage in sequential, as stated by twill, is PERCEIVED. so yeah, i think there should be a seperate amendment for freestyle baby sitting. freestyle is it's own monster.-0

[lackattack]

no, this solution seems geared specifically to those players and others at the top that abuse FREESTYLE TEAM BABY SITTING to harvest points. oddly enough, the people this new rule is aimed at have yet to post a word in their own defense OR in their baby sitting tactics defense. however, a slew of SEQUENTIAL TEAM players have done just that. oddly enough, we are still being lumped in with those that use baby sitting for an ACTUAL ADVANTAGE instead of what is just a PERCEIVED ADVANTAGE (i have yet to see anyone show me a specific instance of an advantage being gained in a team sequential game). this rule is overkill, because it should mainly apply to freestyle where the majority, if not all, of the abuse in team games occurs.-0

There is always an actual advantage when teammates play for each other. It lets one side bypass the whole challenge of team coordination. Sure, the advantage is quite larger in freestyle games where you need tactical coordination, but there is also an advantage in sequential games where you still need strategic coordination.

Do teammates ever have problems working together in sequential games? Of course they do! ... unless they are both the same person In fact, team sitting could be considered a mild form of multiple accounts because it gives an actual advantage.

This goes against CC's principles of fairness. People who are absent from a game should never gain an advantage. That's why we defer armies and that's why we'd like to stop team sitting. However, since it is very inconvenient for some players to stop team sitting, and the advantage can be very small, we are willing to compromise. But those players must understand that team sitting is a priviledge and it is their opponents' right to deny or ignore their request alltogether.

[jiminski]

There is always an actual advantage when teammates play for each other. It lets one side bypass the whole challenge of team coordination. Sure, the advantage is quite larger in freestyle games where you need tactical coordination, but there is also an advantage in sequential games where you still need strategic coordination.

Do teammates ever have problems working together in sequential games? Of course they do! ... unless they are both the same person In fact, team sitting could be considered a mild form of multiple accounts because it gives an actual advantage.

This goes against CC's principles of fairness. People who are absent from a game should never gain an advantage. That's why we defer armies and that's why we'd like to stop team sitting. However, since it is very inconvenient for some players to stop team sitting, and the advantage can be very small, we are willing to compromise. But those players must understand that team sitting is a priviledge and it is their opponents' right to deny or ignore their request alltogether.

yeap, ok Lack, I understand your position but can we compromise on the acceptance being based upon 1 opposition team member? (And can be nullified/rejected by any single opposition team member)
Some people just don't even use team chat and there is more chance of it getting noticed and answered by at least one of the team.

[owenshooter]

hey, mr. lack, 50 pages late to the party, i am in full support of the new written rule as it stands. however, the debate rages on. if it ends today and the rule, as it is written now, is implemented, i am more than fine with it. however, until then, i can still try to get a little more out of this right? go back to the start of the thread and see how far we have all come through our efforts and the willingness of twill to listen. we went from unwritten rules be the final say and the sticky being removed, to something that is actually workable, and that the community has had input in making. i am more than happy with the way this is being resolved, and the evolution of the written rule has been fantastic...-0

p.s.-i still do not agree that a sequential team cheater has more of an advantage than a freestyle team cheater.

[lancehoch]

p.s.-i still do not agree that a sequential team cheater has more of an advantage than a freestyle team cheater.

No one has ever said that sequential team sitters gave a greater advantage. lack only said that there is an actual advantage. This is exactly what you wanted, someone telling you how there is an advantage. So now you can stop with the 15 pages of "Oh its only a perceived advantage, so do not have it effect me" garbage.

EDIT: The contents of this post are under discussion through PM with owenshooter.

[owenshooter]

p.s.-i still do not agree that a sequential team cheater has more of an advantage than a freestyle team cheater.

No one has ever said that sequential team sitters gave a greater advantage. lack only said that there is an actual advantage. This is exactly what you wanted, someone telling you how there is an advantage. So now you can stop with the 15 pages of "Oh its only a perceived advantage, so do not have it effect me" garbage.

you sir, have not been following the thread. i have been more than helpful in this process... and i also helped get this thread it's sticky back after a mod declared the issue "over". so, just because lack says something, doesn't mean i have to agree. if there is an advantage in sequential (still hasn't been proven), it is much smaller than the advantage gained in freestyle, where this abuse is occuring. again, where are the guys this is aimed at, coming in the thread to defend their practices? they are all continuing the race up the board and the point grab before the smorgosboard is ended-0

*discussing our differences in PM, as show above... i love how a guy with zero team games and 4 games at a time, can tell me there is no difference between freestyle and sequential team play. i am down to my lowest game total in quite some time, and am getting ready to start the cycle over, which means playing as many at 50 team games with various partners (blitz, LET'S MARCH!!!). this guy doesn't even have a need for a TEAM BABY SITTER, and his experience in doubles is more than limited. not being rude, just stating facts.

[MrMoody]

twill can we get an update on what the rule is looking like

[alster]

Hmmm... I'm not in favor of this new rule.

1. The poll is ridiculous. The options are tailored.
2. I read this statement of a 24h rule in Twill's post. Read that last week as well and a looong debate surrounding it. Problem is: The rules are the rules. Write them down nice and clearly and all is good. With unwritten rules, there will be tedious threads in the forum.
3. Generally - I don't think account sitting is advisable in standard games where you play. But for team games, I really don't see many problems.

But that's just my 2 cents. The 2 rules CC has today I think works fine. Nice and simple. No need to make it more complicated.

[Soloman]

p.s.-i still do not agree that a sequential team cheater has more of an advantage than a freestyle team cheater.

No one has ever said that sequential team sitters gave a greater advantage. lack only said that there is an actual advantage. This is exactly what you wanted, someone telling you how there is an advantage. So now you can stop with the 15 pages of "Oh its only a perceived advantage, so do not have it effect me" garbage.

you sir, have not been following the thread. i have been more than helpful in this process... and i also helped get this thread it's sticky back after a mod declared the issue "over". so, just because lack says something, doesn't mean i have to agree. if there is an advantage in sequential (still hasn't been proven), it is much smaller than the advantage gained in freestyle, where this abuse is occuring. again, where are the guys this is aimed at, coming in the thread to defend their practices? they are all continuing the race up the board and the point grab before the smorgosboard is ended-0

*discussing our differences in PM, as show above... i love how a guy with zero team games and 4 games at a time, can tell me there is no difference between freestyle and sequential team play. i am down to my lowest game total in quite some time, and am getting ready to start the cycle over, which means playing as many at 50 team games with various partners (blitz, LET'S MARCH!!!). this guy doesn't even have a need for a TEAM BABY SITTER, and his experience in doubles is more than limited. not being rude, just stating facts.

With a good team there is no advantage is the point I think all are trying to make. In a good team there is no dissension and all moves are agreed or advised upon anyways and after a while the partners learn the game style of there teamate and discussions becomes moot. They already know for the most part what there teamate is goanna do and only discuss if they are going out of ther norm. This is why good teams win and can babysit without any true advatage, while on the flip side there is an advatage to the poorly coordinated teams as it give them true coordination under one person versus the coordination that naturally occurs in a good team.

[Ace-man]

put my vote down for NOT supporting this rule with regards to team play.

[jiminski]

put my vote down for NOT supporting this rule with regards to team play.

what does it mean Ace?

[Twill]

Oky doky folky.

We have come to a decision of sorts...

I moved, and the other admins agreed, to shelf this proposal at this time.

There has been a lot of controversy and very little agreement on what can, cannot, should, should not and GFY in this thread and in our private discussions.

While we recognize that a new rule is needed to curb abuse, there is also the need to maintain the casual side of playing ConquerClub.

So, what we are going to do is wait until we implement a formal sitting feature which will give you guys a much more pleasant sitting experience and us a framework in which to enforce a rule against strategic sitting without limiting casual sitting.

So, not only do you guys get to keep the casual sitting, you will also get new tools to make it easier, and hopefully a more abuse free gaming experience...but it has to wait until we can code the tools

Hopefully this is something we can live with for the next few months while we roll out our existing cycle of updates and get to this new feature.

Thank you all for your participation in this discussion. It was not always pretty, nor was it always constructive, but a lot of people got a lot of opinions out into the open.

Have a good one
Twill.


This thread will remain stuck for 24 more hours.

[nagerous]

That sounds pretty cool actually, cheers.

[owenshooter]

that is a very sound decision.-0

[fwblb]

Sounds great! Thanks Twill!

[Robinette]

Phffft... cheaters (preceived or real) are rejoicing too...
well i can tell you one thing for certain...

you won't see me joining ANY babysitting team games, sequential OR freestyle...
no sir... not me!

[gloryordeath]

thats great, few web sights that i have played on are so willing to work with the members playing in it to make the site better.

[AndyDufresne]

We should all encourage Lack to stay up all night coding his next couple of updates...


--Andy