SteamWorks

[ender516]

Well, I suppose you could argue it that way. I just figured 1 steam is more than 0 engines, so the -1 would apply. Now I see that I can hold All Steam and not be penalized, but taking one Engine at that point would be horrendous.

Perhaps a clearer wording would be: "If you have engines, having too much steam is bad! ..."

[zimmah]

I was just examining the XML in detail (because of the way BOB displays continents with overrides, I was a little puzzled) and I see that holding One Steam and no engines at all does not incur the -1 bonus, as the legend implies that it should.

"Having more steam than engines is fatal. For each excess steam you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 troop per turn"

that's what the legend says. the fact that you lose all engine bonuses means that you must first own such a bonus so you must also own at least one engine. the idea is that if you pump to much steam in your engine it blows and you get the negative bonus. now if you have just a steam and no engine there's nothing to blow is there?

my reasoning exactly.

Well, I suppose you could argue it that way. I just figured 1 steam is more than 0 engines, so the -1 would apply. Now I see that I can hold All Steam and not be penalized, but taking one Engine at that point would be horrendous.

Perhaps a clearer wording would be: "If you have engines, having too much steam is bad! ..."

you can get all 7 steam and still get the normal amount of troops, but when you take 1 engine after that it'd going to make a huge blast and gain you -6 troops, that'll probably lose you the game right away.

[zimmah]

I was just examining the XML in detail (because of the way BOB displays continents with overrides, I was a little puzzled) and I see that holding One Steam and no engines at all does not incur the -1 bonus, as the legend implies that it should.

here's the list according to BOB with no overrides in effect.

Code: Select all

Northwest (1) 
Northeast (2)  	
Eastmidlands (2)  	
Westmidlands (2)  	
Southwest (3)  	
Southeast (4)  
East (3)  	
One Engine (0) 
Two Engines (0)  
Three Engines (0)  
Four Engines (0)  	
Five Engines (0)  	
Six Engines (0)  	
All Engines (0) 
One Steam (0)
Two Steam (0)
Three Steam (0)  
Four Steam (0)  	
Five Steam (0) 
Six Steam (0)  
All Steam (0)  	
One Powered Engine (1)  	
Two Steam and One Engine (-1)  	
Three Steam and One Engine (-2)   
Four Steam and One Engine (-3)  
Five Steam and One Engine (-4)  
Six Steam and One Engine (-5)   
All Steam and One Engine (-6)  
Two Powered Engines (2) 
Three Steam and Two Engines (-1)  	
Four Steam and Two Engines (-2)  	
Five Steam and Two Engines (-3)  	
Six Steam and Two Engines (-4)  	
All Steam and Two Engines (-5)  
Three Powered Engines (3)  	
Four Steam and Three Engines (-1)  
Five Steam and Three Engines (-2)  
Six Steam and Three Engines (-3)  	
All Steam and Three Engines (-4)  	
Four Powered Engines (4) 
Five Steam and Four Engines (-1)  	
Six Steam and Four Engines (-2)  	
All Steam and Four Engines (-3)  	
Five Powered Engines (5) 
Six Steam and Five Engines (-1)  	
All Steam and Five Engines (-2)  	
Six Powered Engines (6)  	
All Steam and Six Engines (-1)  	 
Seven Powered Engines (7)  	
No Continent  	Oxford(5)

note that having 4 engines and 3 steam will just state you have 3 powered engines as i dind't feel the need to add much more code just to state you have a 4th engine doing absolutely nothing, it would just clutter the log.

/ edit in fact it does show the extra engine but in a seperate continent that gives no bonus at all

[thenobodies80]

The updated version is now live!

Btw it's possible to have the Isle of Wight anchor moved elsewhere to make clearer that the symbol is referred to the island and not to one of the other territories?
Maybe on the (down)left side of the island, where now you have "Isle"/"Isle of" written?

[crazymilkshake5]

:glitch: if you have 2 steam and no engines your fine, but if you have 2 steam and 1 enine you lose an army.

[zimmah]

:glitch: if you have 2 steam and no engines your fine, but if you have 2 steam and 1 enine you lose an army.

not a glitch, it's designed that way.

just to clarify (again) having any amount of steam is not bad on it's own. you can have all 7 steam and still get all your armies, but after you take an engine, t starts to hurt.

the reason is, if you have no engines at all, you can't blow them up either.

[ender516]

So I'm not the only one who read it that way. It does seem odd that you can have any Steam territories with no penalty until you acquire an Engine territory. Only then do you have to keep them balanced to avoid the negative bonus.

[zimmah]

maybe it has to be made more clear in the map description after all.

i just assumed to be it that way, and assumed it made sense too. probably it's not so straightforward as i tought it to be.

any suggestions on how to get the wording so we don't need too much space on the map to explain how the mechanics work, but still be clear enough so that most people will understand it?

maybe if you have the space, add this line:

steam without engines does nothing

or something.

[koontz1973]

any suggestions on how to get the wording so we don't need too much space on the map to explain how the mechanics work, but still be clear enough so that most people will understand it?

Having steam is OK. Having more steam than engines is bad. For excess steam, you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 for each additional steam per turn.

I changed fatal to bad as fatal suggests it mean game over.

That is 5 extra words.

[DiM]

Having steam is OK. Having more steam than engines is bad. For excess steam, you lose all engine bonuses and get -1 for each additional steam per turn.

to me it seems perfectly logical the way it is now.

Having more Steam than Engines is fatal. For each excess Steam you lose all Engine bonuses and get a -1 troop per turn.

the fact that you lose all engine bonuses clearly implies that you must own at least an engine for that rule to apply. i really don't understand how people miss this.

i'm willing to change it as i do not want any confusion.

but saying: "Having steam is OK." seems... i don't know... like i'm explaining for dumb people. it's like "there, there, dumb guy... don't worry, it's ok to have steam with no engines, just be careful when you get your first engine cause it might blow"
i'll think of something that sounds like it's not meant for 1st graders and post it.
i'll also change the anchor isaah requested.

[DiM]

moved the port from isle of wight and the terit name
added an explanation for when you have no engines but you have steam.

here are the new files:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9400/steamworksl.png

Click image to enlarge.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1061/steamworkss.png

Click image to enlarge.

[koontz1973]

to me it seems perfectly logical the way it is now.

to me also, but if it is not clear to others, then a problem as arisen.
You solution works though as well.

[ben79]

can't reinforce from E. sussex to west riding

[DiM]

can't reinforce from E. sussex to west riding

are you sure?

i can do it and it works fine. the xml also connect those 2 terits.

maybe you confused west riding with east riding or E sussex with W sussex.

if you really could not reinforce from E. sussex to west riding then it is a site bug not something related to the map.

[ender516]

Having more Steam than Engines is fatal. For each excess Steam you lose all Engine bonuses and get a -1 troop per turn.

the fact that you lose all engine bonuses clearly implies that you must own at least an engine for that rule to apply. i really don't understand how people miss this.

Well, I think the disconnect comes from deriving the precondition of having an Engine bonus from the consequent clause about losing them. It's kind of a circle.

Look at it another way. Suppose I were playing a board game where the rule was that if I land a particular space, I would lose all my money and go back to the start. If I were broke when I landed on that space, I wouldn't expect that just because I had no money to lose, I didn't have to go back to the start. The two penalties have the same cause, but are independent.

May I suggest again:

Perhaps a clearer wording would be: "If you have engines, having too much steam is bad! ..."

[zimmah]

ender, did you notice he allready added some wordings on the new maps? it seems crystal clear now.

[thenobodies80]

[quote="DiM"]moved the port from isle of wight and the terit name
added an explanation for when you have no engines but you have steam.

here are the new files:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9400/steamworksl.png

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1061/steamworkss.png

Sent to lackattack
Nobodies

[ender516]

ender, did you notice he allready added some wordings on the new maps? it seems crystal clear now.

Sorry, missed that. I thought the original sentence would have been changed. I guess I did not read to the end. The new extra sentence is explicit enough, although a little backwards in my mind still. Since it's all about negatives, I don't think of them as bonuses. If using the extra sentence, I might have put it as "Steam with no engines is just wasted, but incurs no penalty." At this point, though, I don't think anyone will still be confused if they read it all, as I should have. 'Nuff said.

[Jinks]

Great work on the map, I like it a lot

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?

[DiM]

Great work on the map, I like it a lot

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?

yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.

[zimmah]

Great work on the map, I like it a lot

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?

yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.

i just checked his game, bob sais he is holding the winning condition. guess holding blown engines doesn't matter for the winning condition.

if you really want to change it i guess i could update the xml. not sure how much code i need to change for that tho.

[Jinks]

Great work on the map, I like it a lot

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?

yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.

Ah, ok, its just with BOB, it says I have completed the Objective...had me a bit confused.

Thanks for the clarification

[zimmah]

Great work on the map, I like it a lot

I'm very sorry if this has already been brought up and answered (I don't have time to read all the pages)...last turn I completed the Objective (Oxford and 3 Powered Engines) started this turn and didn't win.

I have 5 steam and 3 engines...does that make a difference?

yes it does. with 5 steam and 3 engines you don't have 3 powered engines you actually have the negative bonus.

Ah, ok, its just with BOB, it says I have completed the Objective...had me a bit confused.

Thanks for the clarification

oh, guess bob is just mistaken then.

[DiM]

we've broken BOB )

[zimmah]

'm watching his game now, he's trying to win the game by holding 4 powered engines and oxford. in theory that should end the game, but i'm not quite sure if it works as expected. so let's just see.

if t doesn't work i have a back-up xml lying around. (i allready have a version of the xml with extra lines of code i expected to be redundant, let's see if it's really as redundant as i expected)