Conquer Club

The Baratheons aren't bastard Targaryens. They just married into a lower member of the Targaryen family. The Blackfyres whom the show hasn't really gotten into are the bastard Targaryens.

As far as those people you mention. The key thing is both Jon and Tyrion have only killed out of necessity. On one of those occasions, he actually defending Caitlyn Stark and on the other it was an act of self-defense. As Tyrion said in both the TV show and the books, if Stannis Baratheon seized Kings landing, his head was the third in line for the spikes after Joffrey and then Cersei. Jon was basically told by the Half-hand to kill him and then the Half-hand further forced his hand by attacking him. Jon killed the betrayers out of necessity. They endangered The Wall by even being alive. None of these acts were vengeful. Robb in hindsight is actually a good example of the issues with vengeance. I am not holding Karstark against him. If he had let Karstark go unpunished he would have been viewed as weak. He gave Karstark the chance to take The Black and go to The Wall, Karstark refused. What Robb did do wrong was that he let his vengeance get the better of him and he ended up in a war that he couldn't win, partly because he was unwilling to make a deal with the Lannisters to secure Sansa. Robb mentioned it himself that if he had made the deal to trade Jaime for Sansa (even if Arya was assumed dead), he could have offered a marriage pact to the Tyrells and they would have been on his side instead of the Lannisters. Vengeance doesn't tend to lead to good things. It was vengeance that led Walder Frey to kill Robb Stark and many of the Northmen at the Twins. Arya is walking a very tight rope and she needs to be careful not to fall off.

betiko wrote: Just a little recap of lords of the 7 kingdoms at the present time, let me know if I'm right:

winterfell: roose bolton
casterly rock: tywin lannister? can't remember if he ended up naming someone else (not tyrion for sure)
riverrun: walder frey? but littlefinger has harenhal?
dragonstone (and storm's end???): stannis baratheon
pyke: balon greyjoy
highgarden: mace tyrell?
sunspear: doran martell
the eyrie: lysa arryn

As a reminder I asked this question earlier. What s up with storm s end? Is it tyrell property through renly? Also why is it called the 7 kingdoms when they are 8 or 9?

I think it's because Pike isn't really considered one of the Kingdoms. It's either Pyke or Dragonstone anyways.

betiko wrote:Also why is it called the 7 kingdoms when they are 8 or 9?

The 7 kingdoms are The Kingdom of the North, Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale, Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, Kingdom of the Rock, Kingdom of the Reach, Kingdom of the Stormlands, Dorne.

Note that Dorne isn't referred to as "Kingdom of Dorne", just Dorne. That's because Dorne was the only Kingdom that was able to actually resist Aegon the Conqueror.

The Kingdoms are geographical regions, but there are a couple of other areas that aren't part of any of the Kingdoms (North of the Wall and the Iron Isles). The seven Kingdoms go back in history to a date long before Aegon came, but in the present the Kingdoms are the administrative areas consolidated under Aegon's conquest (In 1 AC) and makes up the Realm. Dorne joined the Realm through diplomatic means nearly 200 years after Aegon's conquest.

Dorne was conquered by Daeron I in 157 AC (at the age of 14), left the Tyrells to rule there (Daeron considered Dorne's continued independence as something of a blemish on his family's honor so to speak). The Dornishmen rebelled as they were want to do, killed the Lord Tyrell and Daeron came back to put down the rebellion. It is said that Daeron lost 50,000 men trying to hold Dorne and Dorne finally won when Daeron himself was killed in the uprising. He was 18 years old at the time of his death, at a place called "Prince's Pass", the main overland route into Dorne.

Baelor the Blessed ascended the Iron Throne and the story goes that he desired peace with Dorne so he walked barefoot through the Boneway and rescued his cousin from a snake pit where it is said that Baelor was bitten by dozens of poisonous vipers but did not die because of his faith. He negotiated marriage of his cousin Daeron II to Myriah Martell as a way to make peace. Though the Iron Throne and Dorne still skirmished from time to time.

Daeron II had his much younger sister Daenerys (who was born after he had already had a son of his own) to the Prince of Dorne (Maron Martell), and that finally united the realms in 197 AC. This marriage set off the the Blackfyre rebellion, but that's another story.

Maron, in honor of his new bride, built the famous Watergardens at which the Martell highborn children would play. The story goes that Daenerys took pity on the children of the servants and guards and so let those children play in the Watergardens as well. A tradition that Dorne still observes to the present.


But enough history, basically, betiko, the reason it's called the Seven Kingdoms in the present day is because that's how Aegon set up the administration of Westeros. It meant something different in the long since by gone days, but the particulars are not known very well.

It's also that long ago time when the Tyrells ruled Dorne for those four years (after Daeron I conquered it), that the Martells and the Tyrells don't like each other very much, even unto the present.

The present year is around 300 AC, for reference as to how long ago this stuff happened. AC stands for "Years after Aegon's conquest, just so you know. The history of Westeros goes back a lot farther, some 12,000 years or so I think? Longer probably, the First Men came 12,000 years before Aegon's Landing, no one knows what Westeros was like before that. Only the Children of the Forest know, if there are any left.

betiko wrote:

betiko wrote: Just a little recap of lords of the 7 kingdoms at the present time, let me know if I'm right:

winterfell: roose bolton
casterly rock: tywin lannister? can't remember if he ended up naming someone else (not tyrion for sure)
riverrun: walder frey? but littlefinger has harenhal?
dragonstone (and storm's end???): stannis baratheon
pyke: balon greyjoy
highgarden: mace tyrell?
sunspear: doran martell
the eyrie: lysa arryn

As a reminder I asked this question earlier. What s up with storm s end? Is it tyrell property through renly? Also why is it called the 7 kingdoms when they are 8 or 9?

Dude, I haven't a god damn clue (and yeah, I read patches and Strike Wolf's responses). Its really confusing honestly.

Like this is the first season the Martells were even introduced, right? And now Oberyn has a pretty big role as a judge...

What do you guys think about Jon Snow's identity? Who is his mother and is Ned Stark really his father? I'm with the crowd that thinks his mother is Ned Stark's sister Lyanna and his father is Rhaegar Targaryen. This would explain some things such as how honourable to the bone Ned Stark could ever produce a bastard (answer is he didn't) and why if he didn't he took him into his family, by his own standards he dishonoured himself, and risked the wrath of his wife (answer is he did it for his sister). It would also make sense in that if he's Targaryen and got dragon blood he might be able to ride one of the dragons, since Daenerys can only ride one of her dragons she might be tempted to find allies who can help her out in that way, and she's logically also looking for a husband (even though in the books she says she's not), Jon is young and if it becomes evident that he's got dragon blood she might consider him.
It is also physically possible that it happened because Rhaegar held Lyanna captive during the war.
What do you think? What theory resonates in your head?

Army of GOD wrote:

betiko wrote:

betiko wrote: Just a little recap of lords of the 7 kingdoms at the present time, let me know if I'm right:

winterfell: roose bolton
casterly rock: tywin lannister? can't remember if he ended up naming someone else (not tyrion for sure)
riverrun: walder frey? but littlefinger has harenhal?
dragonstone (and storm's end???): stannis baratheon
pyke: balon greyjoy
highgarden: mace tyrell?
sunspear: doran martell
the eyrie: lysa arryn

As a reminder I asked this question earlier. What s up with storm s end? Is it tyrell property through renly? Also why is it called the 7 kingdoms when they are 8 or 9?

Dude, I haven't a god damn clue (and yeah, I read patches and Strike Wolf's responses). Its really confusing honestly.

Like this is the first season the Martells were even introduced, right? And now Oberyn has a pretty big role as a judge...

Westeros has 7 kingdoms in the same way that the US has 50 states. Each kingdom is just the administrative area of the government located in King's Landing. Just as the 50 states are administrative areas for the United States. Each state in the US also has a degree of autonomy just as the 7 kingdoms do.
Each state in the US has a governor, just like the 7 kingdoms have governors, except the kingdoms call the governors "wardens".

Why it was set up like that in Westeros is also akin to why it is set up like that in the US. There is a historical and material process that led to the creation of each state. In the US it was simply moving enough people into a specific area until there were enough to adequately control the area and then was legislated into a state. After wiping out or otherwise controlling the native Americans in the areas.
In Westeros, before the seven kingdoms, there were hundreds and hundreds of little kingdoms. Over time and war, the material process, those kingdoms were consolidated into larger realms, eventually reaching the point of 7 kingdoms. The 7 kingdoms would fight each other and no doubt given time they would have been absorbing each other except Aegon finally came and put an end to all that, sort of. And he turned the 7 kingdoms into the 7 states of Westeros that made up Aegon's newly conquered nation.

The Iron Islands bent the knee and became a vassal state. Kind of like the Philippines is to the US today. The North remained pretty much wild and untamed, kind of like Montana (hahaha).

It's not that hard, really, to understand.

Gillipig wrote:What do you guys think about Jon Snow's identity? Who is his mother and is Ned Stark really his father? I'm with the crowd that thinks his mother is Ned Stark's sister Lyanna and his father is Rhaegar Targaryen. This would explain some things such as how honourable to the bone Ned Stark could ever produce a bastard (answer is he didn't) and why if he didn't he took him into his family, by his own standards he dishonoured himself, and risked the wrath of his wife (answer is he did it for his sister). It would also make sense in that if he's Targaryen and got dragon blood he might be able to ride one of the dragons, since Daenerys can only ride one of her dragons she might be tempted to find allies who can help her out in that way, and she's logically also looking for a husband (even though in the books she says she's not), Jon is young and if it becomes evident that he's got dragon blood she might consider him.
It is also physically possible that it happened because Rhaegar held Lyanna captive during the war.
What do you think? What theory resonates in your head?

That's the conventional theory. And while it seems likely that Jon's mother was Lyanna, it's quite possible that his father wasn't Rhaegar.

There was a tournament held in King's Landing where Rhaegar won and he named Lyanna the Queen of Beauty. It's tradition that the winner do this. This kind of set of the events that led to Robert's rebellion because not long after Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

However, it was during this tournament that reportedly Lyanna was "violated". By whom we don't know. By "violated" we can assume "raped", or it's possible that Lyanna was a willing participant. Selmy knows the story (he was there) but he hasn't revealed the details.

Lyanna was betrothed to Robert but she didn't love him or even much like him. She loved someone else, whom we don't know for sure who. That may be who "violated" her at the tourney. We just don't know the details yet, and one of the few people who knows the truth is dead, with his head cut off. Heck, Ned Stark might have been the only person who knew the truth.

There is another theory which is possible, involving the Dane house, and I'll tell that one later.

patches70 wrote:

Gillipig wrote:What do you guys think about Jon Snow's identity? Who is his mother and is Ned Stark really his father? I'm with the crowd that thinks his mother is Ned Stark's sister Lyanna and his father is Rhaegar Targaryen. This would explain some things such as how honourable to the bone Ned Stark could ever produce a bastard (answer is he didn't) and why if he didn't he took him into his family, by his own standards he dishonoured himself, and risked the wrath of his wife (answer is he did it for his sister). It would also make sense in that if he's Targaryen and got dragon blood he might be able to ride one of the dragons, since Daenerys can only ride one of her dragons she might be tempted to find allies who can help her out in that way, and she's logically also looking for a husband (even though in the books she says she's not), Jon is young and if it becomes evident that he's got dragon blood she might consider him.
It is also physically possible that it happened because Rhaegar held Lyanna captive during the war.
What do you think? What theory resonates in your head?

That's the conventional theory. And while it seems likely that Jon's mother was Lyanna, it's quite possible that his father wasn't Rhaegar.

There was a tournament held in King's Landing where Rhaegar won and he named Lyanna the Queen of Beauty. It's tradition that the winner do this. This kind of set of the events that led to Robert's rebellion because not long after Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

However, it was during this tournament that reportedly Lyanna was "violated". By whom we don't know. By "violated" we can assume "raped", or it's possible that Lyanna was a willing participant. Selmy knows the story (he was there) but he hasn't revealed the details.

Lyanna was betrothed to Robert but she didn't love him or even much like him. She loved someone else, whom we don't know for sure who. That may be who "violated" her at the tourney. We just don't know the details yet, and one of the few people who knows the truth is dead, with his head cut off. Heck, Ned Stark might have been the only person who knew the truth.

There is another theory which is possible, involving the Dane house, and I'll tell that one later.

Not necessarily. Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy when Ned found Lyanna.

OK...I have the friggen DVD's. It says, right in the DVd's that Baratheon are bastard Targaryen.

also...

House Baratheon is the youngest of the original great houses, tracing its descent from Orys Baratheon, one of Aegon I Targaryen's fiercest generals, and rumored to be his bastard brother.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Baratheon


Come on book reader..please, tell us some more "truths"

Keep reading:

Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V Targaryen, married into the House and birthed Lord Steffon Baratheon, continuing the close ties between the dragon and the stag.

strike wolf wrote: Arya is going down a path of vengeance. It's not a pretty path and every indication is that it is going to get worse. That's not me talking about the books, that's me referring to the show. The way she killed that man a couple episodes back was more than just a little vindictive.

Here is a picture of Jon Snow stabbing Karl through the head and out of his mouth. Note the really uncomfortable angle he had to use to kill him in this way. He could have stabbed him through the back, or cut his head off and it would have been easier, more convenient. He must really wanted to kill him in this specific way to use such an odd, uncomfortable angle to do it. But that's ok...it's good noble Jon snow that did it. Sweet little Arya, who should be spending her time dreaming of unicorns and rainbows, doesn't kill people because they want to rape and abuse her. Nope, she's just mad because the dude has her sword. Pretty soon she will be eating babies and stuff.

I wonder if Jon was mad at Karl for killing Commander Moormon. Good thing he got a chance to run the Moormon family sword thru his head.

pearljamrox2 wrote:

strike wolf wrote: Arya is going down a path of vengeance. It's not a pretty path and every indication is that it is going to get worse. That's not me talking about the books, that's me referring to the show. The way she killed that man a couple episodes back was more than just a little vindictive.

Here is a picture of Jon Snow stabbing Karl through the head and out of his mouth. Note the really uncomfortable angle he had to use to kill him in this way. He could have stabbed him through the back, or cut his head off and it would have been easier, more convenient. He must really wanted to kill him in this specific way to use such an odd, uncomfortable angle to do it. But that's ok...it's good noble Jon snow that did it. Sweet little Arya, who should be spending her time dreaming of unicorns and rainbows, doesn't kill people because they want to rape and abuse her. Nope, she's just mad because the dude has her sword. Pretty soon she will be eating babies and stuff.

I wonder if Jon was mad at Karl for killing Commander Moormon. Good thing he got a chance to run the Moormon family sword thru his head.

Or maybe the director thought "Hey this would look really cool if Jon killed him with the sword coming out of his mouth."

Oh wow...So Jon is so good, you can't even hold him accountable for what he does...It's the directors fault. Every example I have given, of "good" people killing someone in a horrible way, and you explain it away. But Arya, with her tiny sword and her tiny body, kills a guy in one of only ways she probably Physically can, and she is going dark. Wonderful. Forget the fact that she has been a constant hostage, in constant danger of anything happening to her, seen all of her adult family killed. Some people might say she is Vengeful, vindictive, she has blood lust. Others might say..she is Brave, fiercly loyal to her family.

You as a book reader think, gee..that scene at Crastor's Keep wasn't in the book, so it's the directors fault. I have already told you..this thread is about the SHOW...not the book. Whatever your ideas of Jon in the book....this story is a little different than the book. You can't disregard a part of the SHOW in a discussion about the SHOW because it wasnt in the BOOK. Hell, anything that happens in the book, I can just say...oh, it's not Arya that is dark, the writer just thought it would be really cool if Arya killed Polliver in the same way he killed Lommy. Or did it happen that way in the book..probably not. I guess we can blame that on the director to then...sweet Arya is off the hook.

Maybe Arya should have just given Polliver a good scolding instead of sticking her blade thru his face. "Shame on you Polliver for killing my friend, a little boy. And really, me for some chicken? Maybe if you had offered some mash potatoes it would have been a fair deal. Now run along Polliver, and do try to be nicier to people...Have a nice day"

patches70 wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:

betiko wrote:

betiko wrote: Just a little recap of lords of the 7 kingdoms at the present time, let me know if I'm right:

winterfell: roose bolton
casterly rock: tywin lannister? can't remember if he ended up naming someone else (not tyrion for sure)
riverrun: walder frey? but littlefinger has harenhal?
dragonstone (and storm's end???): stannis baratheon
pyke: balon greyjoy
highgarden: mace tyrell?
sunspear: doran martell
the eyrie: lysa arryn

As a reminder I asked this question earlier. What s up with storm s end? Is it tyrell property through renly? Also why is it called the 7 kingdoms when they are 8 or 9?

Dude, I haven't a god damn clue (and yeah, I read patches and Strike Wolf's responses). Its really confusing honestly.

Like this is the first season the Martells were even introduced, right? And now Oberyn has a pretty big role as a judge...

Westeros has 7 kingdoms in the same way that the US has 50 states. Each kingdom is just the administrative area of the government located in King's Landing. Just as the 50 states are administrative areas for the United States. Each state in the US also has a degree of autonomy just as the 7 kingdoms do.
Each state in the US has a governor, just like the 7 kingdoms have governors, except the kingdoms call the governors "wardens".

Why it was set up like that in Westeros is also akin to why it is set up like that in the US. There is a historical and material process that led to the creation of each state. In the US it was simply moving enough people into a specific area until there were enough to adequately control the area and then was legislated into a state. After wiping out or otherwise controlling the native Americans in the areas.
In Westeros, before the seven kingdoms, there were hundreds and hundreds of little kingdoms. Over time and war, the material process, those kingdoms were consolidated into larger realms, eventually reaching the point of 7 kingdoms. The 7 kingdoms would fight each other and no doubt given time they would have been absorbing each other except Aegon finally came and put an end to all that, sort of. And he turned the 7 kingdoms into the 7 states of Westeros that made up Aegon's newly conquered nation.

The Iron Islands bent the knee and became a vassal state. Kind of like the Philippines is to the US today. The North remained pretty much wild and untamed, kind of like Montana (hahaha).

It's not that hard, really, to understand.

thanks for all the detailed explanations patches even if you're not answering my original question.
let's put it another way:

The Kingdom of the North
winterfell: roose bolton

Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale
the eyrie: lysa arryn

Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers
riverrun: walder frey? littlefinger has harenhal?
+pyke (iron islands): balon greyjoy

Kingdom of the Rock
casterly rock: tywin lannister???? didn't he pass it on to someone else?

Kingdom of the Stormlands
storm's end: stannis baratheon???? the tyrells???? the lannisters???

Kingdom of the Reach
highgarden: mace tyrell or the grandma?

Dorne
sunspear: doran martell

indepedent capital
king's landing: Tommen Lannister
+dragonstone: stannis baratheon?

can you guys help me understand at this present time who is ruling officially/unofficially each kingdom and if I understood correctly in which kingdon each domain belongs to????

pearljamrox2 wrote:Oh wow...So Jon is so good, you can't even hold him accountable for what he does...It's the directors fault. Every example I have given, of "good" people killing someone in a horrible way, and you explain it away. But Arya, with her tiny sword and her tiny body, kills a guy in one of only ways she probably Physically can, and she is going dark. Wonderful. Forget the fact that she has been a constant hostage, in constant danger of anything happening to her, seen all of her adult family killed. Some people might say she is Vengeful, vindictive, she has blood lust. Others might say..she is Brave, fiercly loyal to her family.

So you do understand what it's like talking to you about "sweet" little Arya. Do I think there was a vengeance aspect to killing Carl? Sure. Can I also say there was more to it than that? Easily. I can't say the same thing for Arya's last couple of kills. The fact is you bring up these other examples Tyrion killing the mountain man, Tyrion at the black water, Jon against Qhorin, Jon killing Carl and the only good example is Jon killing Carl. Hell, Tyrion isn't even a good character to bring up because he's not really a protagonist so much as he's an anti-villain. Jon is a complex case because he has been asked to compromise his some of his values on multiple occasions. Has he always come to the right choice? No. Can he be vengeful? Yes. Are all his kills vengeful? No. Carl. Sure I'll give you that there were vengeful aspects to that.

You as a book reader think, gee..that scene at Crastor's Keep wasn't in the book, so it's the directors fault. I have already told you..this thread is about the SHOW...not the book. Whatever your ideas of Jon in the book....this story is a little different than the book. You can't disregard a part of the SHOW in a discussion about the SHOW because it wasnt in the BOOK. Hell, anything that happens in the book, I can just say...oh, it's not Arya that is dark, the writer just thought it would be really cool if Arya killed Polliver in the same way he killed Lommy. Or did it happen that way in the book..probably not. I guess we can blame that on the director to then...sweet Arya is off the hook.

I am barely even talking about the book right now. I am using examples from the show. You wave that book thing around like it's an impervious shield. It's not. there's plenty of examples of Arya being vengeful in the show.

The director/writer comparison doesn't work. A director decides how actors should interact in scenes, a writer creates characters. A GOOD writer designs a good consistent personality for that character and an even better writer designs ways to challenge that character's values. Without a director, the character still exists. Without the writer, the character never was. The Polliver scene was a little different in the book but it had the same overall feel.

As far as fully disregarding the book. I'll fully disregard the book when they start basing the show off of Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter instead of ASoIaF because all these little changes you keep talking about haven't really changed where the story should be right now. IT'S IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE AS IT WAS IN THE BOOKS AT THIS POINT.

Maybe Arya should have just given Polliver a good scolding instead of sticking her blade thru his face. "Shame on you Polliver for killing my friend, a little boy. And really, me for some chicken? Maybe if you had offered some mash potatoes it would have been a fair deal. Now run along Polliver, and do try to be nicier to people...Have a nice day"

Polliver had to die. Arya didn't need to deliver the killing strike. She didn't need to make it vindictive. Hell I actually like that she killed Polliver. I like that she killed that guy bragging about the wolf's head last season. It doesn't stop me however from worrying that she is on a dark path.

betiko wrote:

patches70 wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:

betiko wrote:

betiko wrote: Just a little recap of lords of the 7 kingdoms at the present time, let me know if I'm right:

winterfell: roose bolton
casterly rock: tywin lannister? can't remember if he ended up naming someone else (not tyrion for sure)
riverrun: walder frey? but littlefinger has harenhal?
dragonstone (and storm's end???): stannis baratheon
pyke: balon greyjoy
highgarden: mace tyrell?
sunspear: doran martell
the eyrie: lysa arryn

As a reminder I asked this question earlier. What s up with storm s end? Is it tyrell property through renly? Also why is it called the 7 kingdoms when they are 8 or 9?

Dude, I haven't a god damn clue (and yeah, I read patches and Strike Wolf's responses). Its really confusing honestly.

Like this is the first season the Martells were even introduced, right? And now Oberyn has a pretty big role as a judge...

Westeros has 7 kingdoms in the same way that the US has 50 states. Each kingdom is just the administrative area of the government located in King's Landing. Just as the 50 states are administrative areas for the United States. Each state in the US also has a degree of autonomy just as the 7 kingdoms do.
Each state in the US has a governor, just like the 7 kingdoms have governors, except the kingdoms call the governors "wardens".

Why it was set up like that in Westeros is also akin to why it is set up like that in the US. There is a historical and material process that led to the creation of each state. In the US it was simply moving enough people into a specific area until there were enough to adequately control the area and then was legislated into a state. After wiping out or otherwise controlling the native Americans in the areas.
In Westeros, before the seven kingdoms, there were hundreds and hundreds of little kingdoms. Over time and war, the material process, those kingdoms were consolidated into larger realms, eventually reaching the point of 7 kingdoms. The 7 kingdoms would fight each other and no doubt given time they would have been absorbing each other except Aegon finally came and put an end to all that, sort of. And he turned the 7 kingdoms into the 7 states of Westeros that made up Aegon's newly conquered nation.

The Iron Islands bent the knee and became a vassal state. Kind of like the Philippines is to the US today. The North remained pretty much wild and untamed, kind of like Montana (hahaha).

It's not that hard, really, to understand.

thanks for all the detailed explanations patches even if you're not answering my original question.
let's put it another way:

The Kingdom of the North
winterfell: roose bolton

Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale
the eyrie: lysa arryn

Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers
riverrun: walder frey? littlefinger has harenhal?
+pyke (iron islands): balon greyjoy

Kingdom of the Rock
casterly rock: tywin lannister???? didn't he pass it on to someone else?

Kingdom of the Stormlands
storm's end: stannis baratheon???? the tyrells???? the lannisters???

Kingdom of the Reach
highgarden: mace tyrell or the grandma?

Dorne
sunspear: doran martell

indepedent capital
king's landing: Tommen Lannister
+dragonstone: stannis baratheon?

can you guys help me understand at this present time who is ruling officially/unofficially each kingdom and if I understood correctly in which kingdon each domain belongs to????

I don't really have a good answer. Best I can tell you is as follows:

The North: Roose Bolton
The Riverlands: The Freys and Littlefinger
The West/Casterly Rock: Kevan Lannister while Tywin acts as Hand of the King
Dorne: Doran Martell
Highgarden: Tyrells
The East/Eyrie: Lysa Tully Arryn Baelish and Petyr Baelish
Stormlands: I am not actually sure on this one...

The ones that aren't actually kingdoms:

Dragonstone: I believe this has been promised to the Redwines (the main Tyrell bannermen) but is still in Stannis' possession for the time being.
Pike: Balon Greyjoy

strike wolf wrote:
Polliver had to die. Arya didn't need to deliver the killing strike. She didn't need to make it vindictive. Hell I actually like that she killed Polliver. I like that she killed that guy bragging about the wolf's head last season. It doesn't stop me however from worrying that she is on a dark path.

Here is that scene..just because it is one of the greatest scenes in the whole show(in my opinion)




As for did she have to do it. Notice when the Hound is almost overcome. He is slow getting back to his feet, all the men are weakened, tired. But it's still 3 against 1. Arya couldn't have helped out until just then. And she might have saved the Hound and herself..who knows. She couldn't have killed them until they were weakened. The first guy was shocked by being hit over the head and she took care of him quick. Yes...she took her time and threw a little spice on Polliver...And I love it! I can't even explain how happy I feel every time I see that smile creep on her face, as she is riding off on her own horse, with needle at her side.

Yes, the look on her face right after she does it is haunting. I kinda think it is crazy, that you shouldn't kill someone if you have very, very specific personal reasons to do so...but it is acceptable to kill because someone told you to. It's cool for Jon Snow, because Thorne(the acting commander) sent him on that mission hoping he would be killed. I'm not against Jon Snow, I love him too. I'm trying to point out the hypocracy this says Arya is somehow doing something wrong, or that what she is doing is somehow different than what most fighters/killers do. Again, perhaps because she is a child, and a girl, it comes off different.


Vindictive- 1. Disposed to seek revenge; revengeful.
2. Marked by or resulting from a desire to hurt; spiteful.


Synonyms revengeful, vengeful
Related Words
avenging, retaliatory; resentful, uncharitable, unforgiving; catty, cruel, despiteful, hateful, malevolent, malicious, malign, malignant, mean, nasty, sadistic, spiteful, venomous, vicious, viperish, virulent; narrow-minded, petty, small-minded; grim, implacable, merciless, pitiless, relentless, unrelenting; baleful, baneful, evil; harsh, hostile, inimical, wrathful


Near Antonyms
charitable, forgiving, merciful, relenting; benevolent, benign, benignant, loving; brotherly, compassionate, good, good-hearted, kind, kindhearted, kindly, sympathetic, warm, warmhearted; altruistic, humane, humanitarian, philanthropic (also philanthropical); sweet, tender, tenderhearted; high-minded, magnanimous, noble



Vindicate-
1. to clear from guilt, accusation, blame, etc, as by evidence or argument
2. to provide justification for: his promotion vindicated his unconventional attitude.
3. to uphold, maintain, or defend (a cause, etc): to vindicate a claim.
4. (Law) Roman law to bring an action to regain possession of (property) under claim of legal title
5. (Historical Terms) Roman law to bring an action to regain possession of (property) under claim of legal title
6. to claim, as for oneself or another
7. to take revenge on or for; punish
8. to set free

Sorry for the language lesson, I follow my mind where it goes.

So, would you say Ned Stark became vindictive when he rebelled against the Mad King? Because, I think the Antonyms of vindictive are what ever one thinks of Ned Stark. Do you think Arya will become all of the Synonyms of vindictive in her dealings with all people, because that is how she is becoming? Or do you think she is only going to treat her enemies that way? It would be nice if she wasn't always completely surrounded by her enemies. Maybe we could know for sure then.

It's funny how vindictive and vindicate are almost the same word. But very different meanings because of how they are used, different connations, one is a verb and one an adjective.

pearljamrox2 wrote:

strike wolf wrote:
Polliver had to die. Arya didn't need to deliver the killing strike. She didn't need to make it vindictive. Hell I actually like that she killed Polliver. I like that she killed that guy bragging about the wolf's head last season. It doesn't stop me however from worrying that she is on a dark path.

Here is that scene..just because it is one of the greatest scenes in the whole show(in my opinion)




As for did she have to do it. Notice when the Hound is almost overcome. He is slow getting back to his feet, all the men are weakened, tired. But it's still 3 against 1. Arya couldn't have helped out until just then. And she might have saved the Hound and herself..who knows. She couldn't have killed them until they were weakened. The first guy was shocked by being hit over the head and she took care of him quick. Yes...she took her time and threw a little spice on Polliver...And I love it! I can't even explain how happy I feel every time I see that smile creep on her face, as she is riding off on her own horse, with needle at her side.

Did she have to kill the other? yes. Did she have to help the Hound in that fight? Yes. Did she have to kill Polliver the way she did? Hell no.

Yes, the look on her face right after she does it is haunting. I kinda think it is crazy, that you shouldn't kill someone if you have very, very specific personal reasons to do so...but it is acceptable to kill because someone told you to. It's cool for Jon Snow, because Thorne(the acting commander) sent him on that mission hoping he would be killed. I'm not against Jon Snow, I love him too. I'm trying to point out the hypocracy this says Arya is somehow doing something wrong, or that what she is doing is somehow different than what most fighters/killers do. Again, perhaps because she is a child, and a girl, it comes off different.

Jon didn't do it just because he was told to. That is my fault for not being specific enough. Jon did it because Qhorin told him to get close to Mance Raydar so that they could get information to protect the Wall. That is a much better reason than simply vengeance. Being a child certainly is part of it. The fact that she is 10 and already this dark is not a good sign. It doesn't excuse others from being purely vengeful. Arya being a girl has nothing to do with it.

So, would you say Ned Stark became vindictive when he rebelled against the Mad King? Because, I think the Antonyms of vindictive are what ever one thinks of Ned Stark. Do you think Arya will become all of the Synonyms of vindictive in her dealings with all people, because that is how she is becoming? Or do you think she is only going to treat her enemies that way? It would be nice if she wasn't always completely surrounded by her enemies. Maybe we could know for sure then.

That is actually a very interesting topic. Robert Baratheon was very much pure vengeance. Not only in how he viciously killed Rhaegar but the ordered slaughter of all the Targaryen children was not a political move to secure his throne it was purely vengeance. What does Robert Baratheon say about it 17 years later? He says he still sees Rhaegar's face and dreams about killing him every night. That he's killed him thousands of times yet Rhaegar still won. Come to think of it. What Robert Baratheon did during the Greyjoy Rebellion 8 years later...you could very well say that Robert Baratheon is the poster boy for vengeance.

Ned is certainly more complicated. Vengeance was a part of it but he also genuinely was trying to protect himself, his friend, Robert Baratheon, live up to his duty as a Stark in seeking justice for the murder of his father and brother and to find and rescue his sister. It was the vengeance aspect and seeing how far Robert Baratheon took it that made Ned Stark hesitant to accept the position of Hand of the King.

strike wolf wrote:
Not necessarily. Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy when Ned found Lyanna.

Owwww, yeah, that's right! Howland doesn't seem to like stepping foot out of his marsh kingdom though. I'd like to see him appear at some point, to meet the guy who saved Ned Stark from Arthur Dane of all people!
If people thought Jamie Lannister was good with a sword before he got his hand cut off, he's nothing compared to Arthur Dane when it comes to sword fighting.

In fact, on of the other stories of where Jon came from is from the House Dane. After the Tower of Joy, when Arthur Dane fell, his sword was the greatsword Dawn. Dawn is a unique sword, as it's not forged from steel or even of Valyrian steel. Dawn was forged of metal from the heart of a fallen star. It is said to be the color of milkglass and that it actually seems to glow.

When Ned left the Tower of Joy he went to Starfell and delivered the sword Dawn to Arthur's sister, Ashara Dayne and inform them of Arthur's death.
At the Tourney of Harrenhal, Ashara danced with Ned Stark. Was there something between them? No one knows.

But anyway, when Ned delivered the news, Ashara threw herself from a tower into the sea. Her body was never recovered. Ned then left Starfell and returned back home, with Jon Snow in tow.
Now, if we can remember, in the first or second episode of the series, Robert and Ned are sitting and talking while they were returning to King's Landing from Winterfell. Robert asked about that girl from the war, the one Ned supposedly banged, her name was Wylla. Robert assumed that Wylla is Jon Snow's mother.

However, Wylla is actually a wet nurse, she was Jon Snow's wet nurse. And Wylla served the house of Dane in Starfell. She was there when Ashara suicided herself.
It is possible that Jon Snow's mother is Ashara and that Ned is his father. Ashara threw herself to her own death because she couldn't stand the thought that her lover had killed her brother.

Maybe we'll find out the truth later, maybe not. We'll see I guess.

betiko wrote: The Kingdom of the North
winterfell: roose bolton

Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale
the eyrie: lysa arryn

Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers
riverrun: walder frey? littlefinger has harenhal?
+pyke (iron islands): balon greyjoy

Kingdom of the Rock
casterly rock: tywin lannister???? didn't he pass it on to someone else?

Kingdom of the Stormlands
storm's end: stannis baratheon???? the tyrells???? the lannisters???

Kingdom of the Reach
highgarden: mace tyrell or the grandma?

Dorne
sunspear: doran martell

indepedent capital
king's landing: Tommen Lannister
+dragonstone: stannis baratheon?

can you guys help me understand at this present time who is ruling officially/unofficially each kingdom and if I understood correctly in which kingdon each domain belongs to????

Opps, sure, beiko, sorry about that.

Let's go through them all,

The North (Kingdom of the North), yes, Roose Bolton is the warden. As a reward for betraying Rob Stark, but his hold on power is tenuous at best. House Bolton rules The North.

The Vale (Kingdom of the Mountain and Vale), House Arryan, Lysa Tully is the warden. She is formerly married to John Arryan, deceased from ingesting poison.

The Riverlands, House Tully. Hoster Tully.

The Westerlands (Kingdom of the Rock), House Lannister. Tywin Lannister.

The Reach (Kingdom of the Reach), House Tyrell. Mace Tyrell.

The Stormlands (Kingdom of the Stormlands), House Baratheon. Stannis Baratheon.

Dorne, House Martell. Doran Martell.


This is a picture of the seven kingdoms, along with the Crownlands.



The Direwolf is the banner of the Starks, but House Bolton's banner is the Flayed Man.

The Fish is the banner of the Tullys.

The Lion is the banner of the Lannisters.

The Three headed Dragon is the Crownlands.

The Rose is the Tyrells.

The Stag is the Baratheons.

And the Spear through the Sun is the Martells.

The Iron Islands, House Greyjoy, banner is the Kraken.

Within each of the kingdoms are other smaller houses who are called bannermen. They live under the rule of the House that rules the particular kingdom. And then the Great Houses are under the Crown.

Also in the picture you can see the Kraken. That's the House Greyjoy of the Iron Islands.

To be fair, Barristan Selmy is also supposed to be as good if not a better swordsman than Jaime though according to Selmy himself Jaime is the best natural swordsman he ever met.

Arthur Dane was a badass though. that's for sure. So was Gerald Hightower for that matter and they were both at the Tower of Joy when Ned Stark rode up to find his sister. The story I love about him is when Jaime was squiring for him and they were going after a group of outlaws led by someone called "The Smiling Knight". Jaime came across Mr. Smiles first and fought him to a relative standstill for a moment before Arthur Dane came up and The Smiling Knight left Jaime alone to fight Arthur. If I remember right, The Smiling Knight broke three swords in his fight against Ser Arthur Dane and each time Dane let him go grab another one before continuing their duel. Eventually Arthur killed the Smiling Knight first but it is an interesting story.

I don't think there is any need to argue about Arya. Everybody views the characters differently. It's ok to disagree. Arya is turning into a hellion, but it's not surprising. It's easy enough to empathize with her, give her circumstances.

She's going to go down a strange road indeed. I'm not yet convinced that it's a bad road, but I can certainly see how some may think so. You'll understand better, Pearljammer, as the series progresses. At that point it may be prudent to revisit this line and see how your feelings have evolved, if they have.

I for one cheer Arya on. Hell, I love carnage. The more the better. But I sure as hell don't think of Arya as evil, not by a long shot. Not yet at least. She just does what she does for whatever reasons she has. Which if fine by me.
To be fair, her options are pretty limited, especially at the moment in the TV series.

Hell, if I were in her shoes I'd be looking for some pay back myself, and I wouldn't give a crap who got in the way. But that's just me.

I like that she hasn't just rolled over, like Sansa had to. But they both are in far different circumstances. Neither has much in the way of choices. Maybe it'll get better for Sansa now.....

I bet she isn't too happy about being told that she's going to be married to her {cousin?) who is still sucking on his mother's tit at the age of 10 or whatever age he is. What a bunch of freaks! First a dwarf, now the end all of Mamma's boy's?
Bwahahahaha!

We can go back and forth like this forever. Again, did Jon need to kill Karl the way he did? Does it matter, they are just as dead I guess. Arya wanted Polliver to know who she was and maybe to think about Lommy as he was dying.

I guess if we can agree, getting dark, doesn't mean turning bad, we are ok. If Ned Stark or Jon Snow can do dark things when the times call for it, and still maintain honor, and be noble and good then I think Arya can too. She is on her own. If her father was still alive, she would still be protected, and wouldn't need to do these things for herself. Now that she is responsible for her own life, she needs to be "darker". I also think as you said about Ned Stark, Arya is seeking justice for a lot of people, she just can't do it, atleast not for now, as overtly as her father could. When do we ever get the chance to see Ned Stark under someones thumb, held hostage, under constant threat of being raped, and then be let loose. I wonder what he would do to someone that held him captive and abused him, and then made the mistake of letting him have a chance to comeback at them. That probably was never a thing Ned Stark had to confront. Ned and his allies were strong enough to fight head to head and win. They never faced that kind of personal need for payback. Maybe you see a glimpse of it at the end of his life. After being attacked by Jaime Lannister...well this happened



Do you think King Robert would have done this to his in-laws? Seemed a little personal to me. Ofcourse littlefinger did probably get him a little riled up. Yes they are crimes and he was hand of the king, but it sounds a lot like the kind of stuff that Arya has been witnessing.

strike wolf wrote:To be fair, Barristan Selmy is also supposed to be as good if not a better swordsman than Jaime though according to Selmy himself Jaime is the best natural swordsman he ever met.

Arthur Dane was a badass though. that's for sure. So was Gerald Hightower for that matter and they were both at the Tower of Joy when Ned Stark rode up to find his sister. The story I love about him is when Jaime was squiring for him and they were going after a group of outlaws led by someone called "The Smiling Knight". Jaime came across Mr. Smiles first and fought him to a relative standstill for a moment before Arthur Dane came up and The Smiling Knight left Jaime alone to fight Arthur. If I remember right, The Smiling Knight broke three swords in his fight against Ser Arthur Dane and each time Dane let him go grab another one before continuing their duel. Eventually Arthur killed the Smiling Knight first but it is an interesting story.

If they ever did a "prequel" to the current GoT series, I'd like it to be about Arthur Dane and his badass exploits. Like the Smiling Knight duel!

Well there is Hedge knight which tells the story of Aemon Targaryen (the Maester at The Wall) and his brother Dareon.