AOS: Orient Express 1883 [quench'd]

[natty dread]

Well, truthfully, this map wasn't really designed for any of the 2-side game types (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4)... they all seem to have this certain gameplay element where most maps just come down to "hit your opponent, anything else is just a waste of resources" at least on most of the random drop maps...

You like team games, so have you tried the map on 6 or 8 player dubs? I'm willing to bet it will be a bit different. I'm all for hearing ideas on how to improve the map, but you'll have to also understand that I also have to think about other game types, especially since the map seems to currently work quite well for standard games..

[Commander62890]

Yes, I see what you're saying. This could definitely be a good map for singles and 6/8-player dubs.
I guess it's fine that some maps are made specifically for that game-type; it's not like we have a shortage of maps on CC. Specialized maps is cool with me.
And, of course, if I play a team game on it, I'm not dreading it... I just feel it could be a lot better for that game-type, if that had been the focus.

[army of nobunaga]

well said, but I dont think the map is bad by any means.

I agree... I really wish the neutrals were 1's. And that bonus (is it the ottoman in the bottom right?) is very chokepointed and easy as hell to hold.

The map looks great and I love the rail + land theme. And natty is one of my favorite mapmakers here... but I too kind of think this map has more potential than gameplay is showing out.

[natty dread]

So guys, can you give me some feasible solutions to your perceived problems?

About neutrals: they are sort of necessary, since I don't see any other way to guarantee fairness of drops with the rail bonuses. If the stations started regular, then what if you drop with both stations of italy for example... As for lowering the neutrals, this is something that could be considered, but again, there are fairness issues... it's already lucky for someone to drop next to the italy stations, since there's only 4 neutrals to take and it gives you a good bonus. And I don't particularly like the idea of "1 neutral territories" since they give a huge advantage in any multiplayer games with cards to whoever drops next to them.

How about lowering the Ottoman bonus? Increasing some of the others?

[Commander62890]

More small bonuses. It's literally impossible to hold any bonus other than Ottoman, which limits the amount of strategy involved.

Right now, the only thing to decide on is, "Eliminate an opponent or go for Ottoman." That's only 2 choices. More small bonuses would make us think more.




Short of that, or altering the neutrals, there's not much you can do.

Lowering the Ottoman bonus might make eliminations more valuable, but there are still only 2 choices

Increasing the other bonuses would not make them more enticing, because they're too big to take and hold, anyway.

[natty dread]

What about the rail bonuses? There are several small rail bonuses... italy and france, both 2 territories/borders. Ottoman rail bonus. Also, servia, romania & switzerland are all 2 or 1 territories.

I don't know about team games, but in standard games I've seen people hold all of the bonuses...

Anyway, I'm sorry to say but adding bonus areas isn't that simple. For one thing, where would they be added? The only solution that's at least in theory feasible would be dividing existing bonuses into smaller parts. But which ones? This would have to be done in a way that makes sense considering the time period.

So here's my suggestions: for the Ottoman, how about I lower the rail bonus to 2? I could also consider increasing Low Countries land bonus to 3.

[Commander62890]

What about the rail bonuses? There are several small rail bonuses... italy and france, both 2 territories/borders. Ottoman rail bonus. Also, servia, romania & switzerland are all 2 or 1 territories.
I don't know about team games, but in standard games I've seen people hold all of the bonuses...

Ah, but hitting neutrals is a no-no for 1v1 and team, which are the only viewpoints I am presenting. Even if it's just one neutral, on a map of this size, it's not worth it.

Anyway, I'm sorry to say but adding bonus areas isn't that simple. For one thing, where would they be added? The only solution that's at least in theory feasible would be dividing existing bonuses into smaller parts. But which ones? This would have to be done in a way that makes sense considering the time period.

Exactly; you would have to break up the big bonuses. However, I understand that you can't do that without ruining your map. I just wanted to let you know that, without small bonuses (with no neutrals in them), it makes team play rather... straightforward.

So here's my suggestions: for the Ottoman, how about I lower the rail bonus to 2? I could also consider increasing Low Countries land bonus to 3.

That's not going to help my issue, but I guess AoN would be happy with it.



There's really nothing you can do to make it better for team play because the map's focus is singles. I'll stop posting here!

[army of nobunaga]

ottoman is strong man... in every game so far... quad cooks or private 1vs1 .. they get ottoman. and it is virtually impossible to break.

Im guessing ottoman is the bottom right... Im not looking but its the bottom right that seems to be a key point.

I would just drop the neutrals on some railroads at key points... that would 1) add another entry into ottoman (bottom right) and 2) maybe make a few railroad stations auto deploy 1

btw.. italy seems to be the only feesable railroad country bonus so far. But ive only played the map 7 or 8 times so far man.

Ill add some games tonight to get a better idea for you

[natty dread]

Ok here's the to-do list so far:

- Varna neutrals to 2
- Ottoman rail bonus to 2
- objective to termini + 5 oe stations


I think I'll do these changes first, then we'll see what else needs tweaking.

[army of nobunaga]

well I dont agree with commander 100% But I see what he is saying.

I think the changes you propose are on the right track man. I am personally not a person opposed to chokepoint bonuses.. I do like that you wil lower the neutral on that side though.

The italian bonuses have been coming into play more lately, and I like that.. I think maybe I might need to do like I did on cricket and play this a lot more and let you know what I think.

[natty dread]

Update time!

New XML -> http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/2/7/2 ... ientx8.xml

Large image

Click image to enlarge.

Smalle image

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

One big thing that I'm noticing with Orient Express is that the train lines are largely ignored. I've been playing mostly flat rate or no spoils in team games ranging from 4 player to 8 player.

The only one's that are worth attacking are the stations with auto deploy, or perhaps hitting up the rail bonus that comes with some of the smaller and easily defensible bonuses. Plus three neutral too high, in my opinion, for a territory that isn't going to give away any benefit on its own. I think there needs to be more action on the rails because its starting to play like any old Europe map. I'd like to see non-auto deploy terrs on Orient Express start as 1's though I could settle for 2's. This might allow more fluidity on the map as well.

What I like about the map is that France and Turkey get a lot of attention as areas more often captured for a bonus. I figure the map is about the train line from Paris to Constantinople, so its good that they receive much in game attention.

So in short, the map is enjoyable but I think something needs to be done to emphasize the rails more.

[natty dread]

Let's see how it works out after this update. If this doesn't suffice to make the rails more important, I can consider lowering all the oe stations to 2:s.

[army of nobunaga]

ill keep loading up more pending games on this map for you man. But I definitely would not be afraid to lower those rail [EDIT NEUTRALS]to 2.

[natty dread]

I definitely would not be afraid to lower those rail bonuses to 2.

bonuses neutrals

[Hopscotcher]

So guys, can you give me some feasible solutions to your perceived problems?

About neutrals: they are sort of necessary, since I don't see any other way to guarantee fairness of drops with the rail bonuses. If the stations started regular, then what if you drop with both stations of italy for example... As for lowering the neutrals, this is something that could be considered, but again, there are fairness issues... it's already lucky for someone to drop next to the italy stations, since there's only 4 neutrals to take and it gives you a good bonus. And I don't particularly like the idea of "1 neutral territories" since they give a huge advantage in any multiplayer games with cards to whoever drops next to them.

How about lowering the Ottoman bonus? Increasing some of the others?

What if only SOME of the stations were droppable? obviously not the auto deploys, but maybe one in every country might make the map more interesting. Just a thought. looking forward to playing the update

[natty dread]

What if only SOME of the stations were droppable? obviously not the auto deploys, but maybe one in every country might make the map more interesting. Just a thought. looking forward to playing the update

Don't you think this would give a significant advantage to whoever drops the stations?

[army of nobunaga]

What if only SOME of the stations were droppable? obviously not the auto deploys, but maybe one in every country might make the map more interesting. Just a thought. looking forward to playing the update

Don't you think this would give a significant advantage to whoever drops the stations?

not if a significant number were drop-able making it even odds on getting one on the drops.

Might be an Idea to think about.

[Hopscotcher]

What if only SOME of the stations were droppable? obviously not the auto deploys, but maybe one in every country might make the map more interesting. Just a thought. looking forward to playing the update

Don't you think this would give a significant advantage to whoever drops the stations?

Nah. Not if you only made SOME of them droppable.

For Instance make all the non Orient Express Stations droppable:::
Amsterdam
Bordeaux
Berlin
Belgrade
Lombardy
Reggio Calabria

SO....... Worst case scenario, somebody gets the Italy Rail bonus. They still have to get BOTH terminus to win even if they do have 5 stations.

I honestly think this would liven this map up quite a bit, but then I'm a fool for NYC

Also, is there a significant difference between the regular stations and the orient stations? Or is that purely for historical reference?

[ender516]

The Orient stations are the only ones which count toward the victory condition.

[MarshalNey]

What if only SOME of the stations were droppable? obviously not the auto deploys, but maybe one in every country might make the map more interesting. Just a thought. looking forward to playing the update

Don't you think this would give a significant advantage to whoever drops the stations?

not if a significant number were drop-able making it even odds on getting one on the drops.

Might be an Idea to think about.

Although I did win one game by holding the objective, it was more due to fog of war and poor vigilance on the part of my opponents. The objective is a mite too difficult to pursue I think to be meaningful, a bit like Lunar War. It's not completely insane (AOR maps come to mind) but it's certainly going to be a very low-percentage win strategy.

Making the non-terminus stations droppable (or some of them) would liven up the map by giving some focus back to the trains. The Land Monopolies are dominant in the early going on this map, and often in the late going as well, with the Rail Monopolies a nice supplement.

Still, this is a fun and fine-looking map. Great work (Lunar War as well).

[MrBenn]

The updated xml has been forwarded to lackattack - I don;t think anything has changed yet, but let's wait and see...

[natty dread]

The updated xml has been forwarded to lackattack - I don;t think anything has changed yet, but let's wait and see...

Just the xml?

[ender516]

Perhaps, to ensure fairness, if you make some stations droppable, you should make them starting positions so they are passed out evenly.

[MrBenn]

The updated xml has been forwarded to lackattack - I don;t think anything has changed yet, but let's wait and see...

Just the xml?

Nope; image files too